A (near) Complete model of the Universe

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Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:38 am

I said lastly:
Also, isn't 56 meaningless without knowing how much time is involved? 56 B-photons per second would be a lot more than 56 per minute, hour, day, or year.
I'm figuring now that in order for a cc (cubic cm) to have a steady supply of 56 B-photons on average, it would have to be receiving and losing 56c B-photons/cm = 56 x 3 x 10^10 B-photons / s. Am I right? It seems to make quite a bit more sense looking at the problem that way.

However, I still think it would have to depend on the mass of the matter within each cc, in order for the charge field to have 19 times the mass of matter. Do you agree?

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:20 pm

Okay, Pete, you suggested I read http://milesmathis.com/photon3.pdf to see how Miles got a charge density of 56/cc. Here's a relevant excerpt.
c^9 = r{photon}^4/D^6 [D is charge density]
That represents c as a function of the radius of the photon and the charge density. I think that pretty much answers the question I was asked.
But let's solve that equation for D, to see what the average density of the charge field is:
D^3 = r{photon}^2/√c^9
D = 1.54(10^-29 kg/m^3)
That seems about right, since it would be about 56 million photons per cubic meter.
It looks like this portion is calculated right, but I'm not analyzing yet how he got the first equation in this quote involving c, r{photon} & D.
For now I just want to comment that even in interstellar space the B-photon density has to be greater than that. Here's what I said earlier: "The ISM (space) contains .1 to 1,000,000 ions, atoms, or molecules per cc (cubic cm)." Miles says the charge density is 19 times the matter density, so 56/19=~3. So for matter density of 3 or less per cc, that would work, but for any greater matter density, the charge density would be way short, which would apply to most of space. I also said earlier: "The air around us is said to contain 10^19 molecules per cc." So the charge density in our air would have to be 19 times greater than the density of those 10^19 molecules.
Right?
Also, isn't 56 meaningless without knowing how much time is involved? 56 B-photons per second would be a lot more than 56 per minute, hour, day, or year.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by purplepete » Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:34 am

Lloyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:58 pm B-PHOTON DENSITY
I see I repeated myself a little in my last post.
Pete, on your site under The B-photon, or Charge, at https://thehonestscientist.com/miles-mathis/ you said:
"Space is full of them [bombarding photons] (averaging around 56 million per cubic meter), and Miles refers to the sum total of them as the 'charge field'.
"– if we scaled up the B-photon to the size of a human there would only be around 100 of them in the entire galaxy [4]."

That seems like an impossibly low figure.
Is that 56 million per m^3 per second, or millisecond, microsecond, or nanosecond?
Or is it supposed to be 56 million per cc, or mm^3, etc?
The ISM (space) contains .1 to 1,000,000 ions, atoms, or molecules per cc (cubic cm).
56,000,000 photons per cubic meter would be only 56 photons per cc.
Aren't the B-photons supposed to make up 95% of the mass of the ISM?
The air around us is said to contain 10^19 molecules per cc.
That's 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules per cc or 10 billion billion molecules per cc.
Where did you get your number?
Ahh, I see what you mean now. The paragraph above this section on the website refers to [2,3,6] and that has the reference to 56 million per cubic metre (in [3]) so I didn't reference that again; [4] is the maths. I'll put the extra refs in to make it clearer. I was copying Miles but you're right; 56/cc is a bit clearer so will put that in as well. Check out [3] http://milesmathis.com/photon3.pdf and see if you think the number is still too low.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by purplepete » Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:21 am

Lloyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:46 am MILES VS EU

Pete, have you read Miles' papers about the Electric Universe?
Yes, I've read them. Miles has a lot of ideas about the world in general and the people within it; I'm only interested in discussing Miles's work on mathematics, physics and to a lesser extent art (as it pertains to physics, mainly). There's also a lot of Miles's work I won't discuss because I don't believe that I have the necessary skills/knowledge (currently) to be confident of being able to provide informative commentary.

For example, whilst I never agreed with Miles's first two models of gravity, I'm still trying to wrap my head around his third idea - I think it's potentially worthwhile in terms of explaining the difference between static and moving friction (still working on that), but still trying to grok the rest of the implications - that's one of the reasons I don't address gravity on my website.
Lloyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:46 am STACKED SPINS
...
PARTICLES
...
Thanks for those sections; I'll need some time to digest that and get back to you.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:41 pm

Pete, the reference doesn't say where you get the 56 million B-photons per cubic meter.
And you also need to specify over what time period you'd find that number of photons.
Also, I think it's more comprehensible to say it's 56 B-photons per cc.
Even within great Voids there must be more B-photons than that, because there should be nothing there obstructing the view of the universe.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by purplepete » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:59 pm

Lloyd wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:58 pm B-PHOTON DENSITY
I see I repeated myself a little in my last post.
Pete, on your site under The B-photon, or Charge, at https://thehonestscientist.com/miles-mathis/ you said:
"Space is full of them [bombarding photons] (averaging around 56 million per cubic meter), and Miles refers to the sum total of them as the 'charge field'.
"– if we scaled up the B-photon to the size of a human there would only be around 100 of them in the entire galaxy [4]."

That seems like an impossibly low figure.
Is that 56 million per m^3 per second, or millisecond, microsecond, or nanosecond?
Or is it supposed to be 56 million per cc, or mm^3, etc?
The ISM (space) contains .1 to 1,000,000 ions, atoms, or molecules per cc (cubic cm).
56,000,000 photons per cubic meter would be only 56 photons per cc.
Aren't the B-photons supposed to make up 95% of the mass of the ISM?
The air around us is said to contain 10^19 molecules per cc.
That's 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules per cc or 10 billion billion molecules per cc.
Where did you get your number?
Howdy, Lloyd. In the section you copied above [4] is the appropriate reference - if you scroll to the bottom of the page that has the link to the relevant paper. Miles didn't have this calculation in his paper, but it's just basic mathematics to get it.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough - this is Miles's calculation of how many particles there are FOR THE ENTIRE (detectable) UNIVERSE. As we have seen, especially over the last couple of decades with rapid advancements in radio astronomy especially, the makeup of the detectable Universe is extremely non-uniform - matter is highly concentrated in webs of galaxies connected by massive Birkeland currents, which are in turn made up of strings of stars in slightly less massive Birkeland currents. So the concentration in the areas we're living in are vastly higher than this average (and orders of magnitude higher again on planets), and vastly lower in the gaps between galaxies that aren't part of the web.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by purplepete » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:51 pm

Lloyd wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:22 pm Pete, I'm starting to check out your website. Why don't you put a link on your site to this forum thread? Maybe on the home page.
Good idea, thanks for that, Lloyd. Now added to the About/Home page.
Lloyd wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:22 pm I've been with this forum since shortly after it first started in 2007. I was actually following the Thoth online newsletter before that, which is where I was notified that this forum would be starting.

I've probably written more on this forum than anyone else. I also did some interviews and organized a few discussions. I also worked with NaturalPhilosophy.org a few years ago, trying to improve scientific method with them. Tried to do that on this forum a little too. I've also been posting sci news links each week for the past few years on this thread: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 6965#p6965

So maybe you and I and some others can collaborate to advance helpful scientific knowledge. I've been exploring the idea of making an improved version of Wikipedia too, based on honest science.
And people have been saying I'm taking on a bit coming up with a model of the Universe - I think coming up with an improved Wikipedia with a more open discussion of Science is a much harder undertaking! ;-)

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:58 pm

B-PHOTON DENSITY
I see I repeated myself a little in my last post.
Pete, on your site under The B-photon, or Charge, at https://thehonestscientist.com/miles-mathis/ you said:
"Space is full of them [bombarding photons] (averaging around 56 million per cubic meter), and Miles refers to the sum total of them as the 'charge field'.
"– if we scaled up the B-photon to the size of a human there would only be around 100 of them in the entire galaxy [4]."

That seems like an impossibly low figure.
Is that 56 million per m^3 per second, or millisecond, microsecond, or nanosecond?
Or is it supposed to be 56 million per cc, or mm^3, etc?
The ISM (space) contains .1 to 1,000,000 ions, atoms, or molecules per cc (cubic cm).
56,000,000 photons per cubic meter would be only 56 photons per cc.
Aren't the B-photons supposed to make up 95% of the mass of the ISM?
The air around us is said to contain 10^19 molecules per cc.
That's 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules per cc or 10 billion billion molecules per cc.
Where did you get your number?

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:46 am

MILES VS EU

Pete, have you read Miles' papers about the Electric Universe? Here are the titles and links.

Is the Electric Universe Controlled Opposition? As it turns out, yes.
http://milesmathis.com/thunder.pdf

Beyond Velikovsky. More unravelling of the Velikovsky project.
http://milesmathis.com/vel2.pdf

He seems to think that the EU team is conspiring against him. I don't think the team is conspiring, but the main members seem pretty biased against alternative models, such as his and Charles Chandler's and others'. Miles contributes to a forum called https://cuttingthroughthefog.com/ . I was contributing there as well until Josh, the owner, banned me, after he and Jared accused me of being a spook or conspirator, like the EU team. And Miles was probably aware of them banning me and apparently didn't object. I wasn't a yes-man like the other members seemed to be. They mostly had praises for Miles, while others who had independent views also got banned. So those folks seem very biased too, and paranoid to boot. Miles is very good at reasoning and math, I'd say, but he's apparently quick to judge people and misjudges often. I'd like to discuss his model if I have time. I think it needs more analysis regarding stacked spins especially.

STACKED SPINS
I have an alternative to stacking that I think is better in some ways, but I haven't been able to explain neutrons with it so far. Are you interested in discussing that? To get started, here's a gif that shows 3 toruses https://www.horntorus.com/illustration/ ... turns.html . The blue one is the one that I think is a pretty good representation of a photon x-spin. You have to imagine that there's a sphere (photon) within the torus revolving around the center axis. That would be Miles' model. You can see that a second complete sphere would also fit within that same torus. That would be my model. Miles' model would be off balance, mine would not. Imagine a fan blade within the torus instead of a sphere. One blade would be off balance, but two would be balanced. Both models would produce a sine wave, although Miles' model would not be able to maintain the sine wave motion due to the mass being off-balance, just like you can't throw a round ball in a sine-wave motion, except for a slight wave as with a curve ball, but that's only in a medium of air, where air pressure affects the motion. Your site has this gif link: https://vimeo.com/188447627 . I don't see a sine-wave motion there. I think Miles' Superposition paper had another gif that's more like a sine-wave. I see you have it before the other one with this link: https://i0.wp.com/thehonestscientist.co ... .gif?ssl=1 . I think Miles was looking for photon motions that would produce the EM sine-wave, so I don't think he succeeded as yet. Do you?

PARTICLES
I guess I'll discuss a little more. Miles' particles, i.e. electrons, protons, neutrons, etc, are supposed to have holes at the poles and at the equators, where photons enter at the poles and exit at the equator or at the opposite pole. Photons exit protons & electrons at their equators and exit neutrons at their opposite poles, I think. Do you see polar or equatorial openings in the above gif at https://vimeo.com/188447627 ? The motions in that gif are supposed to be the path of a single photon going through several stacked spins. How would a single photon be able to go fast enough to cause other photons to enter the polar area and exit the opposite pole or the equator? That single photon would have to go way faster than light speed to divert a continuous dense stream of incoming photons. In my model all that space within the sphere would be mostly full of photons. One photon would attract another to form a pair. The pair would attract another pair to form a fourfold. A fourfold would attract another fourfold to form an eightfold, etc. Centrifugal force might cause a polar opening in the ball of photons, but photons would be mainly attracted to the outer surface of the ball at the poles and roll around the outside to the equator due to the ball's spin. If the spin is too fast, the photons on the equator will fly away, like a disk, similar to Miles' model. Offhand, I don't see how to get neutrons. Small photon balls would be electrons. Larger balls would be protons. Maybe photons could be forced through the polar opening like Miles' neutron, but what would prevent some or most photons from going around the outside to the equator as with protons?

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:22 pm

Pete, I'm starting to check out your website. Why don't you put a link on your site to this forum thread? Maybe on the home page.

I've been with this forum since shortly after it first started in 2007. I was actually following the Thoth online newsletter before that, which is where I was notified that this forum would be starting.

I've probably written more on this forum than anyone else. I also did some interviews and organized a few discussions. I also worked with NaturalPhilosophy.org a few years ago, trying to improve scientific method with them. Tried to do that on this forum a little too. I've also been posting sci news links each week for the past few years on this thread: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 6965#p6965

So maybe you and I and some others can collaborate to advance helpful scientific knowledge. I've been exploring the idea of making an improved version of Wikipedia too, based on honest science.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by jacmac » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:11 pm

purplepete:
Miles freely admits that his model is a simplification of what is happening -
I did not mean to imply otherwise. but I must have missed that part, oops.
I agree with you.
Jack

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by purplepete » Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:20 am

jacmac wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:06 am
Miles has a very detailed (and complicated ) explanation of how it all works.
He may be correct.
He plots all the planets on the same plane.
We know they are not on one plane.
Their orbits have different inclinations to each other and to the solar equatorial plane.
So, when two planets are in conjunction a second time their north/south positions can be quite different.
They also, move under, into, and above the Heliospheric current sheet at different times as they orbit the sun.
This all probably effects the electrical relationships with the sun.
IT's All VERY COMPLICATED.

The complexity itself is a clue I think.
The solar magnetic field is not all neat and uniform.
For half the cycle there is a predominate polarity, then a lot of mixing, then the opposite polarity dominates for awhile.
It's ALL VERY ORGANIC and sort of chaotic.
Miles:
The Sun is recycling a greater charge field coming in from the galactic core and
the surrounding galactic field. It is taking that field in at its poles and re-emitting it nearer the equator.
From there, it travels out on the Solar plane to all the planets, where it is recycled by them in turn. A
sort of circuit is then created, and the charge returns from the planets back to the Sun.
In other words, they are seeing clear evidence here of a charge or magnetic feedback loop from the
large planets (or all the planets, but mainly the big four)
I think the solar wind in general is a feedback from the quiet sun to the interstellar medium
and Miles has the planets feeding that back to the sun.
It seems like the right amount of chaotic electrical mix up on a repeating orbital scale pattern to give us the sun spot cycle.
Agreed, it is complicated.

Miles freely admits that his model is a simplification of what is happening - a big problem being that we don't have any data on input from the centre of the galaxy or the main Birkeland currents, and it'll most likely be decades if not centuries before we have probes in the right places to collect this data.

However, based on how well Miles's February 2020 prediction is panning out for the current solar cycle, especially in comparison with the mainstream predictions, it's certainly an order of magnitude better than what we've had access to in the past (except for the models of JH Nelson which the astronomical community have conveniently forgotten about, and which had no underlying explanation for why they worked, just that they did). As such that suggests that Miles's underlying model is quite possibly a lot closer than the mainstream models at explaining reality, with all of the corresponding implications.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by purplepete » Tue Jun 07, 2022 9:11 am

Lloyd wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:04 pm
purplepete wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:39 am Thanks very much for that, Lloyd. There's a huge amount of very tasty looking research presented there so it'll take me a while to go through it and comment on particulars, but after a brief skim I can already see that this model is not as simple or as fundamental as Miles's is. Charles has started at the level of electrons and protons and the electric/magnetic forces. I have no problem with that, but if you start at that level you are failing to provide explanations for what exactly charge is, why it appears electrons and protons repel similar particles but attract each other, and how forces operate "at a distance". As such this model may be missing fundamental properties.

Miles's model has a consistent explanation for this, and that involves only the assumptions of:
- Space that is a void with no properties apart from volume (three "dimensions")
- A spherical incompressible unbreakable base particle with mass
- Movement of this particle through space in both a linear fashion and with rotation
- The ability for this particle to build up "layers" of spin in x/y/z planes in addition to axially, which is stable only in discrete steps (making each layer effectively double the size of the next lower layer)
Everything else is emergent from the above.
_Miles may have oversimplified the subatomic level as well. His model accounts for repulsion pretty well, but not so well for attraction. See this video for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViZNgU-Yt-Y . It shows some effects of static electricity. There are repulsive effects as well as attractive effects. Static electricity is produced by rubbing one kind of object on another, such as fir on pvc pipe. Apparently, the rubbing removes electrons from one object to the other, leaving one with a deficiency and the other with an excess.
_Why would they be attracted to each other?
_Something that makes sense to me is to regard the protons as having high spraying pressure and the electrons as having low spraying pressure. Low pressure is attracted to high pressure and vice versa. An example is high and low pressure air masses. Two high pressures repel each other & two low pressures repel each other.
_Offhand, it seems that low pressures would repel each other less forcefully than high pressures, so another possibility is that electrons may have reverse pressure, producing suction, but that would make them attract each other. So things seem to be more complex than theory can account for.
_But if you can explain these attractions & repulsions better, be my guest. I'm listening.
Gudday, Lloyd.

That's pretty much exactly Miles's explanation. The electron is ~2K times smaller than the proton so that means it's recycling a lot less of the smaller particles, so it has a much lower "spraying" pressure in comparison. So if you put two protons next to each other they are spraying each other apart equally (unless they've lined up pole to pole), and ditto with two electrons next to each other. Put a proton next to an electron and there is a disparity. Put a few electrons near a few protons and it looks like the electrons are attracted to the protons because of this; it's not that they're "attracted at a distance", it's just that they're repulsed less, and that's the situation in the vast majority of cases on Earth where matter is pretty dense in comparison to most of the rest of the Universe.

That's a bit like the explanation in a few of the gravity models as well (e.g. de Duillier/Le Sage), except in Mile's model the majority of particles are being recycled through larger particles; it's only at the "base" level that they're bouncing off each other.

FYI in Mile's model at the level of molecules the electrons do very little; they mainly hang around the poles of protons, being just a bit too big to be recycled through the proton, so spin around the "hole" like a ping pong ball spinning around the outlet of a basin filled with water when you pull out the plug. It's the flow of smaller particles ("charge") through the (semi-)stable lined-up atomic structures that results in (chemical) bonds.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by jacmac » Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:06 am

purplepete:
've been reading Electric Currents in Geospace and Beyond by Keiling et al. As the name suggests this contains a lot of work by authors who freely acknowledge the existence of electric currents around Earth, on Sol, et al, but despite this the only mention of Birkeland's name is in a brief "history of" section, plus a few mentions by authors from Scandinavia. Alfven doesn't fare much better. Everywhere else it's FAC-this and FAC-that. It is also disappointing that many of the authors continue to ignore Alfven's comments later in life about how "frozen in" magnetic fields exist (if at all) in only very limited situations, certainly not in the breadth of situations where they assume them to. There is also absolutely NO discussion of double-layers or how key they are to solar weather, CMEs or the like. It's amazing how many experts on plasma lack even basic understanding of some of the properties that separate a plasma from a gas and their importance.
Yes. exactly..... It is willful ignorance or worse.

In discussion of the solar cycle I would remind us that the basic structure, nature, etc. of the sun is the quiet sun.
The solar sun spots are interruptions in the quiet sun.
These interruptions have their own cycle which is basically a sine wave.
The sine wave , in geometry, is a point on a circle as it (the circle) rolls through time, so to speak.
The solar cycle (with all its variability) AVERAGES about 11 years, or 22 for a full cycle.
The planet orbits are circle like. The largest one, with a very strong magnetic field, is Jupiter. It orbits every 11.86 years
The second largest planet ,Saturn, is in conjunction with Jupiter every 20 years.
Why look at the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn ?
The sun spots are electrical events. Planets in conjunctions( and other relationships)
should effect the electrical environment surrounding the sun.
I'm going with the local (to the sun) and the "what's in plain sight"........the planets.

Miles has a very detailed (and complicated ) explanation of how it all works.
He may be correct.
He plots all the planets on the same plane.
We know they are not on one plane.
Their orbits have different inclinations to each other and to the solar equatorial plane.
So, when two planets are in conjunction a second time their north/south positions can be quite different.
They also, move under, into, and above the Heliospheric current sheet at different times as they orbit the sun.
This all probably effects the electrical relationships with the sun.
IT's All VERY COMPLICATED.

The complexity itself is a clue I think.
The solar magnetic field is not all neat and uniform.
For half the cycle there is a predominate polarity, then a lot of mixing, then the opposite polarity dominates for awhile.
It's ALL VERY ORGANIC and sort of chaotic.
Miles:
The Sun is recycling a greater charge field coming in from the galactic core and
the surrounding galactic field. It is taking that field in at its poles and re-emitting it nearer the equator.
From there, it travels out on the Solar plane to all the planets, where it is recycled by them in turn. A
sort of circuit is then created, and the charge returns from the planets back to the Sun.
In other words, they are seeing clear evidence here of a charge or magnetic feedback loop from the
large planets (or all the planets, but mainly the big four)
I think the solar wind in general is a feedback from the quiet sun to the interstellar medium
and Miles has the planets feeding that back to the sun.
It seems like the right amount of chaotic electrical mix up on a repeating orbital scale pattern to give us the sun spot cycle.

Re: A (near) Complete model of the Universe

by Lloyd » Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:04 pm

purplepete wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:39 am Thanks very much for that, Lloyd. There's a huge amount of very tasty looking research presented there so it'll take me a while to go through it and comment on particulars, but after a brief skim I can already see that this model is not as simple or as fundamental as Miles's is. Charles has started at the level of electrons and protons and the electric/magnetic forces. I have no problem with that, but if you start at that level you are failing to provide explanations for what exactly charge is, why it appears electrons and protons repel similar particles but attract each other, and how forces operate "at a distance". As such this model may be missing fundamental properties.

Miles's model has a consistent explanation for this, and that involves only the assumptions of:
- Space that is a void with no properties apart from volume (three "dimensions")
- A spherical incompressible unbreakable base particle with mass
- Movement of this particle through space in both a linear fashion and with rotation
- The ability for this particle to build up "layers" of spin in x/y/z planes in addition to axially, which is stable only in discrete steps (making each layer effectively double the size of the next lower layer)
Everything else is emergent from the above.
_Miles may have oversimplified the subatomic level as well. His model accounts for repulsion pretty well, but not so well for attraction. See this video for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViZNgU-Yt-Y . It shows some effects of static electricity. There are repulsive effects as well as attractive effects. Static electricity is produced by rubbing one kind of object on another, such as fir on pvc pipe. Apparently, the rubbing removes electrons from one object to the other, leaving one with a deficiency and the other with an excess.
_Why would they be attracted to each other?
_Something that makes sense to me is to regard the protons as having high spraying pressure and the electrons as having low spraying pressure. Low pressure is attracted to high pressure and vice versa. An example is high and low pressure air masses. Two high pressures repel each other & two low pressures repel each other.
_Offhand, it seems that low pressures would repel each other less forcefully than high pressures, so another possibility is that electrons may have reverse pressure, producing suction, but that would make them attract each other. So things seem to be more complex than theory can account for.
_But if you can explain these attractions & repulsions better, be my guest. I'm listening.

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