by JP Michael » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:43 am
crawler wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:11 am
A Biblical universe raises complications. It probably requires at least say 3 universes (depending on definition).
(1) The old original Heaven (including the Creator & his Angels).
Unnecessary. This 'complication' is based on a dualistic assumption of "spiritual unseen universe" versus "material, seen universe."
Secondly, this view assumes the existence of something (other than the Creator, who, as creator of all that is material, cannot be defined by selfsame material) before existence itself existed. It is a nonsense view. There was no universe prior to the current one.
crawler wrote:Later, (1) & (2) are i think ended by the Creator, &
(3A) the Creator makes the new Heaven (which includes the Creator & most of his Angels)(a limited number of human souls ascend from Earth)
Again, this view assumes a dualism between invisible/immaterial and seen/material, with the latter being subsumed by the former at the transformation ("ascend from earth").
Now I certainly believe there will be a new heaven and a new earth (Isaiah 66:22; Revelation 21:1). But is this to be understood immaterially via 'ascension'; via complete annihilation and recreation; or is it to be understood as transformation and cleansing of the existing material creation (e.g. Romans 8:19-23 "the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption")? Further, the transformation spoken of in the Scriptures is one which
descends to earth, not ascends to heaven (Revelation 21:2 and 10).
crawler wrote:(3B) the Creator makes a Hell on Earth (supervised by the Satan)(including the remaining human souls).
This is completely incorrect. No-where at all is it said that "hell will be the (material -implied) earth" while the 'blessed' all float around in some blissful, ephemeral, ethereal 'heaven'. Again, these are dualistic Gnostic assumptions at work. The final destination for the unrepentant wicked, according to Scripture, is a place called "the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8). Even "hell" (Greek: Hades; Hebrew: Gehenna) is emptied out and thrown into this place (Rev. 20:14). The location of this "lake of fire" is unspecified; but considering repeated analogies to "outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6), I presume it will be somewhere far away from light, life or sentient habitation.
Secondly, 'Satan' does not 'supervise' hell. He gets thrown into it and
punished there forever! (Rev. 20:10; cf. Matthew 8:29; 25:41; Mark 1:24).
crawler wrote:So when (2) ends, do we still have stars, or some stars, or one star (the Sun), does the Moon still exist?? (Not important).
"And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there." (Revelation 21:23-25)
"And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 22:5)
"The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shall be ended." (Isaiah 60:19-20)
Now these passages do not actually say the sun and moon will cease to exist. Rather, they will cease to be the primary light-givers on the new creation. So I see it as a possibility that the sun will become a dull, unnoticed planet and the moon a distant memory of a forgotten old-world order. They won't matter any more then.
In sum, none of the complications you suggested are complications at all, and most of them are based on dualistic assumptions of the nature of the new world order post-transformation. It will be material in every way: cities, walls, gems, rivers, trees, people. Extra universes, past or future, are not required. Only the present creation, transformed and renewed, "a new heavens and a new earth", matters.
Cheers,
JP.
[quote=crawler post_id=3398 time=1604981511 user_id=30412]
A Biblical universe raises complications. It probably requires at least say 3 universes (depending on definition).
(1) The old original Heaven (including the Creator & his Angels).[/quote]
Unnecessary. This 'complication' is based on a dualistic assumption of "spiritual unseen universe" versus "material, seen universe."
Secondly, this view assumes the existence of something (other than the Creator, who, as creator of all that is material, cannot be defined by selfsame material) before existence itself existed. It is a nonsense view. There was no universe prior to the current one.
[quote="crawler"]Later, (1) & (2) are i think ended by the Creator, &
(3A) the Creator makes the new Heaven (which includes the Creator & most of his Angels)(a limited number of human souls ascend from Earth)[/quote]
Again, this view assumes a dualism between invisible/immaterial and seen/material, with the latter being subsumed by the former at the transformation ("ascend from earth").
Now I certainly believe there will be a new heaven and a new earth (Isaiah 66:22; Revelation 21:1). But is this to be understood immaterially via 'ascension'; via complete annihilation and recreation; or is it to be understood as transformation and cleansing of the existing material creation (e.g. Romans 8:19-23 "the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption")? Further, the transformation spoken of in the Scriptures is one which [i]descends[/i] to earth, not ascends to heaven (Revelation 21:2 and 10).
[quote="crawler"](3B) the Creator makes a Hell on Earth (supervised by the Satan)(including the remaining human souls).[/quote]
This is completely incorrect. No-where at all is it said that "hell will be the (material -implied) earth" while the 'blessed' all float around in some blissful, ephemeral, ethereal 'heaven'. Again, these are dualistic Gnostic assumptions at work. The final destination for the unrepentant wicked, according to Scripture, is a place called "the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8). Even "hell" (Greek: Hades; Hebrew: Gehenna) is emptied out and thrown into this place (Rev. 20:14). The location of this "lake of fire" is unspecified; but considering repeated analogies to "outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6), I presume it will be somewhere far away from light, life or sentient habitation.
Secondly, 'Satan' does not 'supervise' hell. He gets thrown into it and [i]punished[/i] there forever! (Rev. 20:10; cf. Matthew 8:29; 25:41; Mark 1:24).
[quote="crawler"]So when (2) ends, do we still have stars, or some stars, or one star (the Sun), does the Moon still exist?? (Not important).
[/quote]
"And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there." (Revelation 21:23-25)
"And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 22:5)
"The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shall be ended." (Isaiah 60:19-20)
Now these passages do not actually say the sun and moon will cease to exist. Rather, they will cease to be the primary light-givers on the new creation. So I see it as a possibility that the sun will become a dull, unnoticed planet and the moon a distant memory of a forgotten old-world order. They won't matter any more then.
In sum, none of the complications you suggested are complications at all, and most of them are based on dualistic assumptions of the nature of the new world order post-transformation. It will be material in every way: cities, walls, gems, rivers, trees, people. Extra universes, past or future, are not required. Only the present creation, transformed and renewed, "a new heavens and a new earth", matters.
Cheers,
JP.