What Do We Know For Certain?

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:35 am

webolife,
Action at a distance is an OBSERVATION.
Is this a statement or a question?

My "VERY DEEPLY HELD and APPARENTLY IMMUTABLE belief system" is as follows: I am certain that I exist, I am certain that motion is real, I am certain that effect requires cause, I trust my own cognitive processes.
"Seeing" requires an indescribably large amount of alignment and resonance between uncountable different objects at astronomical distances, for starters, if particles bumping into each other is the mechanism offered for it. You claim that all this bumping MUST be CHAOTIC. How do you account for this alignment and/or resonance, or do you simply not acknowledge it, or is this another thing that you choose to ignore?
I suggest that photon are discrete particles (or a particle system) that travel in straight lines (unless affected by gravity, if they can be affected by gravity) until such time as they collide with subatomic particles. I suggest that photons travel through the space in between the quantum aether particles. I am not entirely happy with this proposal and I am not certain of it.

I confess I have not as yet read the webo-centric thread - I will do so soon. Hopefully I may gain some non-vague insight into the nature of your objections.

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:11 am

Plasmatic,
The realization that one is paralyzed conceptually if one genuinely doubts one's own existence and the validity of one's only means of contact with mind-independent existents (the senses).
Surely this describes a pragmatic acceptance of the nature and limitations of our existence and implies the scepticism that must be inherent. I do agree that it is an accurate representation of my philosophical premise.

Quote from wiki:
Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive logic,
On this basis I am most definitely objectivist.

Quote from wiki:
Peirce's pragmatism, that is, pragmaticism, differed in Peirce's view from other pragmatisms by its commitments to the spirit of strict logic, the immutability of truth, the reality of infinity, and the difference between (1) actively willing to control thought, to doubt, to weigh reasons, and (2) willing not to exert the will, willing to believe.
On this basis, I am happy to declare myself a pragmatist, or should I say pragmaticist.

An "everyday", rather than academically philosophical, definition of Pragmatic: Practical, concerned with making decisions and actions that are useful in practice, not just theory. Down-to-Earth. Realistic. Accepting that limitations exist.
Example: The realisation that one is paralysed conceptually if one genuinely doubts one's own existence.

Thus, if you require it, I might best be categorised as objectivist with perhaps more than a hint of rationalist....I think?


Is the premise that all entities are physical on the same order as Causality?
Yes.
Can Ontology and mereology have an axiomatic foundation on the same order?
Yes.
Also, you really need to ask yourself what you mean by "universe". I havent read the whole thread so if you have clarified this please direct me to the post.
In my statement I define "the" universe as, to infinity and beyond, and, "our" universe as, to where the galaxies end with only empty space beyond (with no implied suggestion that such a region exists and no additional definition offered). In conversation, both written and verbal, it is highly likely that I may use "the" universe to refer to both definitions - ho-hum.
the whole "lets start with motion" thing is wrong. Motion presupposes that which moves.
Entities (which = bodies = objects = particles) are implicit in motion. Even absolute motion requires at least one body.
Michael, how does a flexible sea of balls not still presuppose an area where the balls are not touching? Or are you saying as long as some part of the ball is touching all the others your mediation is satisfied?
I am not sure of your meaning here, but if this helps: Things of which I am not certain:

Michael's Particle Mediation: If you fire a gun at a can, the can will move; action at a distance - the gun moved the can. But wait, the can was actually moved by the bullet. The bullet mediated the action. Particle mediation is by bombardment.
As for my present (but flexible) description of the quantum aether. If we imagine a quantum particle to have a radius of 1 metre, then its closest neighbours in the "quantum field" (or aether) will more than 1 million metres away. I would put an upper limit of around 10^-25 to 10^-26m for the radius, but quite possibly smaller. Aether particles rarely collide and there is sufficient space in the field for a string of aether particles (a photon) to pass a considerable distance through the field before significant degradation occurs due to collisions (this may be the cause of cosmological redshift). An electron has a mass 10^19 times greater than a quantum particle.


What we know with absolute, self-evident confident certainty:

1) The universe is infinite. That is, whether or not, space is occupied by physical bodies.
2) All effects must have a cause.
3) Anything that can affect the physical universe, and thus is capable of motion, must be considered to be physical (this is really just a statement of definition so as to include light and fields and aethers in a broader definition of physicality).
4) Fundamentally all existence is particulate.
5) A body will remain at rest or in uniform motion unless acted upon by an external force.
6) All actions have an equal and opposite reaction.
7) Momentum cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be transferred.
8) Momentum can only be transferred by contact, that is, by collision (i.e. contact = collision).
9) Force can only be generated by collision. This might also be stated as force is the act of collision.
10) Action at a distance is impossible. This is in an absolute sense as opposed to a mediated sense.
11) F = ma, thus force can only be generated by mass and a change of velocity. This could also be stated that force is a transfer of momentum.

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by Sparky » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:56 am

michael,
Aether particles rarely collide and there is sufficient space in the field for a string of aether particles (a photon) to pass a considerable distance through the field before significant degradation occurs due to collisions
we used to believe that aircraft could not fly faster than the sound barrier...the speed limit now seems to be based on the integrity of the airframe. from my last look at it, titanium was being used because of strength and resistance to the heat produced. but there seems to be an upper limit to speed, using elemental matter as airframe skin.

could c be near the upper limit, because of resistance of an aether?

do you know of any theory that would explain the limitation of motion of specific matter through specific mediums? if there is, could it be scaled down to subatomic level?
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:37 pm

Sparky,
could c be near the upper limit, because of resistance of an aether?
I had considered this possibility, but then came to the idea that c was not a specifically a property of photons or EM fields, but of the particle that emits both those phenomena - electrons. Also, if c is a function of electron spin, then the velocity of electron emissions will not be affected by the velocity of the electron itself. So whether the electron is at rest, travelling at 0.5c or at 99.9999% of c, the velocity of photons will always be c. Of course, we may also consider that the reason electron emissions travels at c is related to the fact that electrons reside in a quantum aether field that electrons absorb and then emit. Also, one must presume, if one wishes to follow this line of reasoning, that electrons are either born from the field or were spawned by the same "creation" process; hence the present relationship between electrons and c travelling particles is presumably a legacy of some past epoch.
do you know of any theory that would explain the limitation of motion of specific matter through specific mediums? if there is, could it be scaled down to subatomic level?
By taking electrostatic charge as a constant electron emission, it must follow that electrons have a constant source to absorb from. This delivers the concept of an quantum aether field. If this field exists then it is logical that it may also be the cause of gravity (see Nicolas Fatio). One can also see that movement through such a field would account for the effect we refer to as inertia and further explains the lack of inertia in gravitational free fall.
It has been noted that protons appear to increase in mass as their velocity increases in a particle accelerator and this effect is assigned to E=mc^2. I would suggest that mass remains unaffected but that resistance to motion through the aether increases. This becomes even more plausible once we realise what a cock-up special relativity is.

Of course I do not know the above for certain.

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by webolife » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:52 am

Or in other words, the things you absolutely know for self-evidently certain, are based on a view of causation by bombardment of particles that you do not know for certain. Do I read you right here? If so my argument is done.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:13 am

webolife,
Or in other words, the things you absolutely know for self-evidently certain, are based on a view of causation by bombardment of particles that you do not know for certain. Do I read you right here? If so my argument is done.
Not at all.

Granted my "belief system" includes the "certainty" that motion is not illusionary and from this standpoint the laws of motion and transfer of momentum are quite self-evident.

I you manage to convince yourself that motion is not real and that action at a distance is possible then good luck to you.

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by webolife » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:49 pm

Nothing I've said can be construed that motion is not real... where is that coming from? I believe that 'bombardment of particles' happens... I would even go so far as to agree that it is self-evident, as you like to say. But you have continually failed to explain how the alleged "contact" of particles is mediated by anything other than yet smaller particles, pushing them to an infinitesmal limit and to a density that is indefinitely large, beyond any scientific ability to confirm or deny, let alone observe. You claim that your chaotically moving/bombarding invisble objects account for gravity, charge and everything else, but I am a reasonably smart guy who is unconvinced that this describes the universe I see with my own eyes. Now you say you are uncertain about this, and well you should be. But since your "certain" list is based on the interactions of these imaginary particles, I stand by my former assertion, and I do believe my argument is done. You can believe in any universe you want, and I will support that right. But when you include statements in your "certain" list that are untenable even by your own theory, then I remain unconvinced of their certainty, and so should anyone reading this thread.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:10 am

webolife,

I apologise if I have misrepresented you.
pushing them to an infinitesmal limit and to a density that is indefinitely large
YOU keep saying. I do not.
beyond any scientific ability to confirm or deny, let alone observe
Isn't this the entire point of theorising? If we could "see" gravity and magnetism the problem would be rather more straightforward to answer.
But since your "certain" list is based on the interactions of these imaginary particles
Again, NO. You are misrepresenting me.

Regardless of how I choose to utilise the laws of motion and momentum transfer to build a plausible workable theory, which you and others are at liberty to disagree with, the laws of motion and momentum transfer stand alone and unconnected to any theory that I may have speculated upon. The point of this thread is to ignore/forget theory and try to isolate what can be said to be known with sufficient confidence as to be regarded as certain.

Action at a distance: One body affects an action or force upon another body without any contact of any kind. There is no communication or signalling, no mediating particles or material or invisible force field of any kind whatsoever.

Is this definition what you are suggesting in place of direct contact?

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by StevenJay » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:29 am

mjv1121 wrote:Action at a distance: One body affects an action or force upon another body without any contact of any kind. There is no communication or signalling, no mediating particles or material or invisible force field of any kind whatsoever.
It's a well documented fact that in some cases of twins - especially identical twins - when one, for instance, receives a serious injury, the other also "feels" the pain, even though they were not in any proximity to each other; being hundreds or even thousands of miles apart, and with no knowledge of what the other was doing.

There are also numerous documented cases of people "knowing" that someone close to them has just passed on (my wife and her younger sister both immediately "knew" that their cousin had just been killed in a car crash several hundred miles away), even though, at the time of knowing, there was no physical possibility of that occurring.

Action at a distance.
It's all about perception.

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by webolife » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:18 am

MJV,
I disagree with your "no communication" prohibition in action at a distance. Obviously [self-evidently?] objects must interact! The whole question here is "how". You insist on using some synonym for "direct contact" as an element in your "certain" list yet when I ask you to explain what that means to you, you say it is just theoretical. I believe that my eyes are in "direct contact" via my line of sight with my computer screen right now! Yet I am uncertain that solid particles emitted from the screen are bombarding my retina, and in fact don't believe that is the case. While that may be self-evident to you, and thus requires no further expanation of the mechanism at the fundamental level, I can not accept it as a certainty, nor can physicists in general who, like you, recognize that any attempt to explain light's behavior is in the realm of theory, not certainty. You are absolutely certain that everything in the universe can be explained as particles in motion bombarding each other. Yet you do not know nor can you explain how this happens. That makes it a belief in my book. Stick with that and your theory gains credibility. A theory is only as valid as its premises, and all premises come down to a belief system, what I've called elsewhere, and now here, your "faith base". You have already acknowledged your belief in the "reality" of the observed universe, but you mistreat your other premises as immutable facts.

You have put a planck-like size limit on your quantums, and have said that they are extemely dense. If my words infinitesmal and indefinitely dense don't apply here, I apologize.
Last edited by webolife on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by webolife » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:18 am

Steven Jay, I agree that your examples indicate some kind of action at a distance. I would agree also with any objections that such occurrences are beyond the realm of scientific investigation, but agree that they are still in the realm of this universe. MJV has to either come up with a bombarding particle explanation, or disbelieve or ignore it. But you and I are not the only ones here who believe the universe is interconnected, and don't have a problem with allowing that premise to guide my scientific inquiry.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:19 pm

webolife,
I disagree with your "no communication" prohibition in action at a distance.
What does this mean?

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by webolife » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:51 pm

Sorry, I should have quoted your entire statement:

MJV said:
"Action at a distance: One body affects an action or force upon another body without any contact of any kind. There is no communication or signalling, no mediating particles or material or invisible force field of any kind whatsoever."

You have herein defined action as a distance as no action at a distance, which of course is nonsensical. No wonder it is unacceptable to you. I repeatedly refer to light action as "signals", and have always referred to the light field as a "force field". Likewise gravitation and voltage. In an electrical circuit, voltage exists and is measureable. You might say it only exists if we turn on the voltmeter and "catch" a few electrons that are put in motion by it. I say that it existed before we turned on the meter, and is what causes the electrons to flow, fly, wave or jump, depending on one's view of the electron.

Clearly we don't "see" each other's viewpoint [oxymoron intended]: you cannot visualize that a force field can mediate a resonant exchange across space without particles travelling from one place to the other and banging into each other. I don't blame your sense of reason for this inability, it is inherent in your materialistic philosophy, from which your logic flows. As is being noted on other threads, the "attractive" force is greater than the "repulsive" force in materials, therefore the universal tendency toward attraction [aka gravitation]. I have the inability to see how your randomly colliding quantums can account for this, despite your claim that they do.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by mjv1121 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:34 pm

webolife,

Another way of defining action at a distance is effect without cause.
you cannot visualize that a force field can mediate a resonant exchange across space
Although the meaning of "resonant exchange" is not immediately obvious, I can certainly visualise that a "force field" can mediate across space. What I am not prepared to accept is that the force field is made of absolutely nothing. If it is made of absolutely nothing whatsoever then that would qualify as action at a distance. If it is not made of nothing then is must be, because there exists no other possible explanation, mediation by particles.

Michael

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Re: What Do We Know For Certain?

Post by webolife » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:33 pm

You, not I, believe that a force is nothing [oh yes, you redefine it as transfer of momentum], despite the fact that your smallest quantums still have something holding them together, quite densely as a matter of repeated assertion. Ever smaller chaotically bumping particles perhaps? Or, is it just the slightest bit possible that at some point in the diminuition of your universe, you may have to accept that your fundamental particles are interacting across space, that there is a dynamic [and quite effectual] field acting on particles, that is not itself composed of particles? You have failed repeatedly to answer this objection, except to assert ever more certainly and absolutely that it just can't BE!!!

That fact that physics has been unable to unambiguously define, quantify and describe such particles for centuries, besides the fact that numerous folks on this forum disagree with you, suggests that there just may be a different explanation, especially since you yourself are unable to describe those particles with certainty. The devil is in the details. Therefore, you should restate your list as premises, not certainties... and don't get me wrong, I too believe several of the statements on your list, though I couldn't help but notice that you only briefly considered, then excluded the second law of thermodynamics from it.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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