Big and Little Science

Hundreds of TPODs have been published since the summer of 2004. In particular, we invite discussion of present and recent TPODs, perhaps with additional links to earlier TPOD pages. Suggestions for future pages will be welcome. Effective TPOD drafts will be MORE than welcome and could be your opportunity to become a more active part of the Thunderbolts team.

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StevenJay
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Big and Little Science

Post by StevenJay » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:11 am

. . . human involvement is the most influential tool of science and we can therefore never know what the world is like in itself apart from us as observers. [that's because there is no "apart." It's like wondering what one's reflection in a mirror might look like in the absence of one's self. -SJ] "Physics," says Eddington, "is a world contemplated from within...What the world might be deemed like if probed in some supernatural manner by appliances not furnished by itself we do not profess to know." What is left for science, therefore, is to talk about what it sees. That is all that science is.
This is one of the finest TPODs ever posted, IMO. If everyone who is engaged in the practice of the scientific method took this to heart, they would likely be asking very different questions. . . and arriving at very different realizations.

It inspired me to reinstate the signature I used to use. 8-)
It's all about perception.

allynh
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by allynh » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:34 am

The link at the bottom of the article is dead. Where is Kronia now.

http://www.kronia.com/symposium_papers.html

Grey Cloud
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by Grey Cloud » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:51 am

The concepts in the TPOD are thousands of years old. Scientists such as Bohr, Bohm and Fred A Wolf freely acknowledged the fact. The aUthor of the TPOD cites other scientists as if they were coming up with something new, or are the only people capable of thinking such thoughts.

“You do not experience the world as IT is. You experience it as YOU ARE.” - Socrates
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by Brigit Bara » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:50 pm

If it comes down to those two questions--Can you observe something you do not have a theory for? and Do you always alter the outcome by the very act of observing?--I am optimistic. Yes, and No. (:

Mel Acheson's look at these subjects in The No-belief Belief System (potd Jan 29 10) was much better than this potd.
What sets science apart, what distinguishes it, is the encouragement of criticism, even of fundamentals.
So that even though
Facts are polymorphic and cognition is creative. Facts take on different meanings depending on the theory in which they're used. Cognition selects and applies different pigments of facts to paint different pictures of reality.
still
belief can be excised from science, and science can continue to discover new worlds.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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StevenJay
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by StevenJay » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:59 am

Grey Cloud wrote:The concepts in the TPOD are thousands of years old. Scientists such as Bohr, Bohm and Fred A Wolf freely acknowledged the fact. The aUthor of the TPOD cites other scientists as if they were coming up with something new, or are the only people capable of thinking such thoughts.
I didn't get that impression at all. Rather, that he was citing other scientists to illustrate that these concepts are familiar to more than just a handful. Also, these are scientists addressing other scientists. If they were addressing philosophers they would indeed appear as a bunch of silly up-starts.

Ultimately, though, it's the core message that really matters.
Grey Cloud wrote:“You do not experience the world as IT is. You experience it as YOU ARE.” - Socrates
Conversely,

"When I change, the world changes." :)
It's all about perception.

CTJG 1986
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by CTJG 1986 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:11 pm

Great article, and I don't believe it's crediting the wrong people but simply conveying the fact that the ideals put forth have been espoused by a wide range of individuals in the scientific realm over the centuries, as mentioned by StevenJay.

The types of philosophical statements being put forward in this article(and a few past ones to lesser extent) remind me of what my uncle used to say: "a person can only observe the universe through a person's eyes[and other senses], to know the truth we would have to observe the universe as the universe views itself".

If taken too literally one runs into the problem of the universe not being able to 'view' itself but his statement was a philosophical one and not a scientific one and should not be taken too literally. I think everyone here understands what it means as he was basically just paraphrasing the many great thinkers such as those mentioned in this article who have come before us.

Time is a perfect example of this - time is a purely human concept used as a form of measurement and in science time is a very important tool for various aspects of scientific discovery and formulation from a human perspective.

However, the physical universe has no concept of time and as such factoring in time as part of an equation used to explain an aspect of the physical universe is inherently flawed.

The (potentially) multi-billion year old universe does not keep track of time in any conceptualized form that has been as of yet discovered; matter comes into existence by way of some as of yet only hypothesized process and continues to exist until some form of event occurs that causes it to cease to exist. The universe does not keep track of the amount of time for which that matter did exist, there is no 'cosmic clock' ticking away keeping track of how long things have existed.

Some physical objects do contain elements that allow us to measure their "age"(tree rings for a very basic example) but even so we still use the purely human concept of time to explain that "age" in ways human beings can comprehend, i.e - days, months, years, decades, seasons, etc. - all of which are based out of the human experience on this planet and it's specific day/night and seasonal cycles.

The physical universe has no need to comprehend such things in the manner that we do and so to imply that the universe factors in the human concept of time in any aspect is a stretch of the imagination. Time can not have any direct effect on any form of matter.

Though there are many people who disagree with me the idea that the human concept of time exists in some linear ethereal plain almost like a form of physical matter in itself that is capable of being bent or folded or manipulated in any way is a flight of fantasy in my mind's eye. Some who disagree with me on this also state that they don't contend that time is any form of physical matter, yet last I checked only physical matter can be bent or folded and that's exactly what they claim can be done with time.

To put it simply the human concept of time does not reflect the underlying reality of any object's/matter's 'age of existence'.

This is just a single example of this philosophical ideal "in play" and I'm going to stop myself here before I ramble on for a few hours, but there are plenty of other examples of things that are viewed one way in accepted science but can be viewed much differently when the human variable is removed from the equation.

Though I suppose one could argue that since nothing can be "viewed" without the involvement of a human being to observe it the human being is actually a constant in the equation and not a variable in the truest sense, but then it could be said that the rest of the equation is entirely variable based on that constant's position within the equation.

I am an extremely philosophical person and you don't want to get me started on some of the bigger issues out there(take this as a warning) but right now I'm stretching the limits of my own (very tired) philosophical mind and am starting to get a headache so I'll stop there for now, haha.

Comments and/or criticisms are welcomed and encouraged, maybe here I might actually get some feedback since in most other places I frequent people run away from long posts of a philosophical nature whereas there are people here(like myself) who seem to run toward them. ;)
The difference between a Creationist and a believer in the Big Bang is that the Creationists admit they are operating on blind faith... Big Bang believers call their blind faith "theoretical mathematical variables" and claim to be scientists rather than the theologists they really are.

Plasmatic
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by Plasmatic » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:58 am

Just wanted to express that this Tpod represents a new low for the Thunderbolts movement. It is indeed a very old bunch of nonsense humanity has yet to pry himself away from.Well most of humanity anyway.
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

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StevenJay
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Re: Big and Little Science

Post by StevenJay » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:06 pm

Plasmatic wrote:Just wanted to express that this Tpod represents a new low for the Thunderbolts movement. It is indeed a very old bunch of nonsense humanity has yet to pry himself away from.Well most of humanity anyway.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by that? Wherein does "new low" and "very old nonsense" lie?
It's all about perception.

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