A Thought Experiment

[magicjava]

If plasma exhibits entrophy on the universal scale....how do stars form? How do galaxies form?
Entrophy is a closed system result, the universe is an open system.

Stars and galaxies can still form. As I mentioned in a previous post, gravity has the reverse entropy configuration of gas. When the parts of a gravity system get closer together, entropy goes up. So the plasma of a star collecting together increases the entropy. The star burning increases the entropy. So there's nothing inconsistent about structures forming and entropy increasing. And that will be true whether the star is run by hydrogen fusion or electricity.

As to the question of an open/closed system, I certainly have no authority to declare the universe to be open or closed. I personally prefer to think of it as closed. It's easier for me and a closed system provides a few less hats for one to pull rabbits from. But naturally my personal preference doesn't decide the state of the universe. Unfortunately, the universe rarely seeks my advice before proceeding.

But on large time scales where stars and even galaxies come and go, the "large grain" structure of the universe should look pretty much the same for both plasma and gas. For a closed system, it will tend to diffuse over time unless gravity can stop it. For an open system it will depend greatly on just exactly what is meant by "open". How much "new stuff" enters the system? How much "old stuff" leaves. The answers to those questions will play a big role in what the universe looks like in an open system.

It's probably a good idea to briefly discuss how gas or plasma in an empty box could show all this because as allynh pointed out, there are so many things _not_ happening in that thought experiment. The key to relating an empty box of plasma to the structure of the universe is understanding just how long the universe is expected to live, even in a closed system. The time scale is 10 - 100 _trillion_ years. The lifetime of a star or even a galaxy, is brief in comparison. Their chance to affect the overall structure of the universe with anything other than their their long term entropy configurations is equally brief. Factoring in their gravity will change the long term entropy picture from that in the thought experiment. But whether or not it's gas or plasma doesn't matter that much. They both expand over time unless gravity can stop it.

I will answer the other replies that came after yours in the future because this is a difficult subject for me and I want to take the time to do a good job responding.

[magicjava]

Simply- there can't be entropy in a system of constantly supplied energy.

I'm not certain exactly what you mean here, so I'll cover both the bases I see.

If you mean (and I'd guess you don't, but I'm not sure) that because some system is supplied electricity that system is free from the 2nd law of thermodynamics, then you are wrong. I don't like going on the internet telling people they are wrong, but that is wrong. You can even visualize this yourself simply by running WinZip and compressing a file. Compressing a file with WinZip does only one thing: it reduces the amount of entropy in the file. It doesn't do _anything_ else. And WinZip is running in an electric system (your computer) that has an external power source. And the cost of reducing the entropy in your file is a greater increase in entropy due to running your computer.

To put it more colorfully, the game is rigged and sooner or later, entropy always wins.

If instead you mean that in an open system we can supply new energy and remove old energy so that the state of equilibrium is never reached, then I agree with you. But that's true regardless of if the system is mostly gas, mostly plasma, or mostly anything else. It's also true if the system is powered by fusion, electricity, or anything else.

[junglelord]

One can gain energy from the ZPE background. Virtual charges can become and do become real charges.
Matter is created all the time, and still persists.
From the Casimir Effect of APM to the Electrogravitics of Sub Quantum Kinetics, the structure of the vaccum, will allow the system to make matter ad-infinitum...No second laws broken.

[mharratsc]

MagicJava wrote:

"If instead you mean that in an open system we can supply new energy and remove old energy so that the state of equilibrium is never reached, then I agree with you. But that's true regardless of if the system is mostly gas, mostly plasma, or mostly anything else. It's also true if the system is powered by fusion, electricity, or anything else."

Right- Equilibrium is never reached. Entropy is applicable to a purely 'thought experiment' because equilibrium will never be reached in a Universe containing 99.9% plasma.

Plasma is a state of charge separation, of inequality. Thus current always flows, there is always motion. Thermodynamics says that it follows the 'energy' of a system from it's subatomic particles all the way to the macrocosmic, but it doesn't take into consideration charges. Charges will do work, without heat. Objects will maintain charge, and not dissipate it in the form of heat. With charge separation, charges will not equilize into homogeneity.

It makes entropy into a purely mathematical concept if you think about it. Least that's the way I see it. Not a physicist tho :\

Mike H.

[GaryN]

It makes entropy into a purely mathematical concept if you think about it.

Absolutely!

Entropy is not random: it is always one negative tetrahedron.

Buckminster Fuller.

[magicjava]

Plasma is a state of charge separation, of inequality. Thus current always flows, there is always motion. Thermodynamics says that it follows the 'energy' of a system from it's subatomic particles all the way to the macrocosmic, but it doesn't take into consideration charges. Charges will do work, without heat. Objects will maintain charge, and not dissipate it in the form of heat. With charge separation, charges will not equilize into homogeneity.

An answer like this is more in line with what I was expecting when I first posted the thought experiment. If what you're saying is true, then yeah, plasma should have different entropy configurations than gas. I guess from here I'll check out the links that arc-us provided (thanks, btw ) and see what I can learn there.

One can gain energy from the ZPE background. Virtual charges can become and do become real charges.
Matter is created all the time, and still persists.
From the Casimir Effect of APM to the Electrogravitics of Sub Quantum Kinetics, the structure of the vaccum, will allow the system to make matter ad-infinitum...No second laws broken.

Yes, but none of those things are outside the universe, none break the laws of physics, and none introduce anything into the universe that wasn't already there.

Anyway, I don't want to argue on whether or not the universe is opened or closed. I think you can find smart folks supporting both of those view points. My preference is to see it as a closed system, but I can't prove that it is.

[junglelord]

There has to be a process that makes the Birkeland Current. There has to be a process that makes matter.
The EU thinks and postulates that infact new matter is created via massive galactic Z pinch functions at the heart of the galaxy. Process theory, or systems theory, that incorporates Richard Feynmens and Carver Meads four areas of physics
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 59&start=0
along with the structure of the vacuum as revealed by the Aether Physics Model
http://www.16pi2.com/
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... f=8&t=1021
and Subquantum Kinetics,
http://books.google.ca/books?id=8HQJAvA ... q=&f=false
which will reveal a relationship to the Aether Matrix that accounts for all these fundamentals.


I believe that Bohm's holographic universe
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... ?f=8&t=604
and Dirac's Sea of Negitive Energy
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... ?f=8&t=800
are perfect compliments to this Systems Theory.

I learned a lot from Treeincarnation.
http://www.treeincarnation.com/inside-out-universe.htm

Blazelabs as well
http://www.blazelabs.com/

I am a huge fan of Buckminster Fuller's Vector Matrix Equalibrium
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 69&start=0


These viewpoints of the universe via a Aether is best understood via Tesla and his Impulse Magnifying Transmitter.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 05&start=0

Which was the first Star Machine Z Pinch and also Phase Conjugate System
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 53&start=0

Time Reversal and the Time-Reversed EM Wave
You must understand time-reversal and the time-reversed EM wave itself, including the theory of the phase conjugate mirror and of the pumped phase conjugate mirror (PPCM from nonlinear optics). This process is key to understanding Scalar EM. Study the PPCM until the material is coming out of your ears in your sleep. A scalar EM potential is comprised of bidirectional EM wave pairs, where the pairs are harmonics and phase-locked together. In each coupled wave/antiwave pair, a true forward-time EM wave is coupled to a time-reversal of itself -- its phase conjugate replica antiwave. The two waves are spatially in phase, but temporally they are 180 degrees out of phase. That combined energy thus stresses the Gravity Field and the Electric Field via the change to negitive permittivy and permeability along with a negitive index of refraction at the center of the Z Pinch Phase Conjugate Wave.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 34&start=0

So I believe that a coherent self exciting, collective, charged, plasma, as thats what plasma is, will create in said box a Phase Conjugate Wave that will self enhance a Soliton Induced Field effect and will continue to increase in a non linear manner due to the extraction of energy and emergence of virtual particles from the ZP Vacuum aether matrix rotating magnetic field and create a dual vortex structure that is the fundamental structure of the dual opposite scalar. From this center point of this self generating structure would emerge real particles from the ZP fluctuations due to the Casimir Effect.

When considering charge, one must use quaternions and thats where the Soliton Scalar becomes so important. This dual opposite vortex structure. Plasma will exhibit non linear behaviour, soliton behaviour, collective behaviour, dynamic holographic behaviour, phase conjugate behaviour. This means that the input of energy from the background rotating magnetic field of the aether would make the first rule of thermodynamics null and void and collective behaviour from Chaos (Phase Conjugate Wave/Soliton Induced Field Effect) would make the second law of thermodynamics, entropy, null and void and that is the norm in the system process that mediates from these charge plasma states and condense into platonic structures of matter based on PHI. The structure of the Birkeland Current and the Systems Process that govern these structures are clearly derived from Pi, PHI, e. That is about all the math you need along with the Quaternions. The rest is my outline of the steady state inside the box and why I view it as an open system.

PS, no argument my good man, nice to have you on board and nice to share.,
Cheers
JL.

[Siggy_G]

The statement about (non-charged) gas and plasma acting the same way, is not in line with what I've gathered about plasma physics.

- a gas consists of atoms in movement and with collisional interaction, following mechanical principals. Hence, the entropy principal applies.
- a plasma consists of loose atoms, in that the electrons are streaming through the structure of atoms.
There are less of complete atoms in movement, hence less collisional interaction on atom level. Rather its largely the electrons that are moving, and charge is distributed and changing in an almost organic manner. Hence, the entropy principal may not apply, as the plasma structure constantly changes - the charge flowing back and forth, and various parts of the plasma is affected by other charged areas or bodies.

- a gas consists of complete atoms and are neutrally charged, and are affected by gravity. Mechanical particle math applies.
- a plasma consists of differently charged atoms at any given point, and electromagnetic forces by far overgoes the gravitational ones. Mechanical particle math and gravity-only considerations don't apply properly.



magicjava wrote:

"(...) there's very little difference between swapping out gas for plasma from the point of view of entropy (...)"

The way I see it, yes absolutelly, it makes a total difference. If you let loose a volume of plasma within an open space system, I imagine you'd see a growing and contracting stringy structure, based on the explained nature of plasma. As z-pinches cause concentration of energy and charge, you'd see other sides of physics at play. Emited radiation also means that EM energy is distributed across the plasma structure, and presumably there would be cooling and heated up areas of the plasma. Cooled plasma could transform into lower states of matter, with less charge. Hence, those bodies interact less with the plasma (dust/planets?). Within other parts, among the pinched areas, a lot of atoms are focused, which could cause some energetic state of matter (stars?). Distributed charge, Birkeland currents, Z-pinches, emitted radiation, heated up areas and cooled areas - they are all at play (somewhat exchanging play) in the Universe. I believe it is an ongoing, almost organic, process. I don't think a mechanical law, although partly at play, is anywhere near the main requirement for understanding the Universe.

A plasma ball is a closed system by the way, and won't explain your specific thought experiment though. I wonder if breaking a plasma ball inside a larger vacuum box/room could be an interesting experiment?

[nick c]

hi magicjava,

Anyway, I don't want to argue on whether or not the universe is opened or closed. I think you can find smart folks supporting both of those view points. My preference is to see it as a closed system, but I can't prove that it is.

It's good that you don't want to argue whether the universe is opened or closed, because as I see it is a meaningless proposition, a moot point.
How could it be either? since "open" or "closed" implies something external to the system. Doesn't "universe" mean everything? or am I missing something?

nick c

[junglelord]

Systems theory is the best way to understand open and closed systems. I agree about the universe being fully complete.
That does not mean that the main frame and the reference frame cannot exchange between themself, in exotic ways, for instance with high frequency and a interrupted electric potential with saw tooth wave fronts, the resulting phase conjugation during z pinch events would make a coherent entity, nothing like a gas, almost alive, hence the name Plasma.

Indeed the Correas of Aethormetry, have been the people who made the plasma in a box, aka vacuum tube, and the result was the Autogenous Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge discovery.

Dr. Paulo Correa and Alexandra Correa made their first experimental breakthrough in 1986, when they discovered and isolated a self-triggered pulsed plasma discharge in the abnormal-glow discharge region (autogenous Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge, or aPAGD). The basic circuitry consists of a DC input section, a plasma reactor, and an output pulsed DC section. When properly tuned, the electrodynamically-sustained resonant state of plasma pulsation outputs more electric power than is input. Output pulses have reached >30 kW, with mean power inputs of 50 to 100W and mean outputs of 200 to 600W. The energy in excess of breakeven is the result of a resonance of the accelerated electron plasma with the local Massfree Energy Plenum, or so-called "vacuum state". This state of resonance permits the tapping of a New Source of Energy, in fact, a source of Massfree Electric Energy, first discovered by the Correas - who have identified its spectrum.

http://www.aetherenergy.com/Technologie ... hor1743617

I believe that this could and would be the results of the thought experiment. A plasma will become coherent. Gas will not. The phase conjugate wave is why. A grating Holographic wave front to organize the pump rays into the time reversed dual opposite....creating a negitive region, this is where the main frame and the reference frame come together to make matter via the Z pinch effect.

[Lloyd]

JL: A grating Holographic wave front to organize the pump rays into the time reversed dual opposite....creating a negitive region, this is where the main frame and the reference frame come together to make matter via the Z pinch effect.

* Will you please go to this post http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... =90#p25310 and reply to it. I explain there why the APM aether unit model makes no sense to me, including the time reversal aspect of it.

[junglelord]

Hi Lloyd, I alread did post my view and thoughts and where to access the technology and physics of Phase Conjugate Time Reversed EM.

Time Reversal and the Time-Reversed EM Wave
You must understand time-reversal and the time-reversed EM wave itself, including the theory of the phase conjugate mirror and of the pumped phase conjugate mirror (PPCM from nonlinear optics). This process is key to understanding Scalar EM. Study the PPCM until the material is coming out of your ears in your sleep. A scalar EM potential is comprised of bidirectional EM wave pairs, where the pairs are harmonics and phase-locked together. In each coupled wave/antiwave pair, a true forward-time EM wave is coupled to a time-reversal of itself -- its phase conjugate replica antiwave. The two waves are spatially in phase, but temporally they are 180 degrees out of phase. That combined energy thus stresses the Gravity Field and the Electric Field via the change to negitive permittivy and permeability along with a negitive index of refraction at the center of the Z Pinch Phase Conjugate Wave.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 34&start=0

I did not make this stuff up, it already exists as a PPCM in non linear optics. So to deny its presence is mute.

Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter was the worlds first EM Phase Conjugate System and ZTheta Pinch Star Machine.
It functioned as a PPCM does, due to the earths Phase Conjugate properties.
The physics of the PPCM apply across the board. For instance....
One simply uses Microwaves instead of visible light, to create a Russian Scalar Woodpecker, which I reason has the dual opposite antenna due to the structure of the phase conjugate wave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Woodpecker_array.jpg
or anti-gravity forces can also be created with Microwave PPCM technology as well.
So its quite real and something to understand as the universe is Plasma and plasma creates order, not entrophy.

PS, no argument my good man, nice to share.,
Cheers
JL.

[junglelord]

The Stellar Z Pinch and the Woodpecker antenna have the same structure.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2008 ... -large.jpg

Thats because they are both Phase Conjugate Waves. A Time Reversed EM.
The geometry controls the function. It is normal for a Phase Conjugate to form from a Stellar Z Pinch, infact I believe that they always work together.

[GaryN]

Re: Woodpecker. Nice photo JL, phased array biconical elements. The biconical gives a well defined torus, with a very circular field shape. It's just what is needed to produce the tori that the planets orbit in.