Smaller planets between the larger ones??

[Tzunamii]

So how did it look like in those days with 49 moons orbiting Saturn ?

Were there 49 moons orbiting Saturn back then?

[SpaceTravellor]

@Tzunamii,

Were there 49 moons orbiting Saturn back then?

I don´t know how many there were. I guess many of the moon must have been there, maybe even all of them.

But maybe we can get some new constructed pictures with the moons included?

- It must have been something of a celestial view when Saturn departed from the Earth sailing along with al these moons!

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Ivar,

You wrote:It must have been something of a celestial view when Saturn departed from the Earth sailing along with al these moons!

You mean like this:

Saturn and Moons

Saturn and moons.jpg (1.94 KiB) Viewed 11030 times

[nick c]

Ivar:

So how did it look like in those days with 49 moons orbiting Saturn ?

It depends on how you define "moon." Saturn is surrounded by objects from pebble to planet sized. Titan would be classified as a planet if it orbited the Sun. These are all offspring and debris, remnants from the disassembly of the former Saturnian system, resulting in proto Saturn expelling material, as well as material being lifted from other planets through the [url2=http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... record.htm]electric discharge machining process[/url2]. This may not have been the result of one event but a series of events over a period of time.
Proto Saturn (brown dwarf star) is the parent of Titan, and all the other moons, rocks, and debris (rings) presently found around Saturn.
see:
Titan A Rosetta Stone for early Earth?
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=n2z18sez
Titan puzzles scientists
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=bh5fj7ap
Enceladus comets and electric moons
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=h103sydx
EDM on Enceladus
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/ ... eladus.htm

Revolt of the Giants. The serpents, barrage of rocks (meteorites) and the cosmic tree are all symbols associated with extraordinary cometary electrical activity in the solar system, together with polar mega-auroral displays recorded globally in strange petroglyphs by prehistoric humans
[...]
We ignore the celestial origins of myth and legend to our great cost. They provide an astronomy stretching back over many thousands of years. Although appearing obscure on the surface, a forensic approach to the earliest global myths uncovers unambiguous correspondence between ancient depictions of the appearance of the sky gods and the recent discoveries of complex high-energy plasma discharge behavior. The “thunderbolts of the gods” takes on crucial significance in the history of the solar system.

According to the Electric Universe model, in its birth from its parent, Saturn, Enceladus would have had a post-natal cometary tail that formed a ring about its parent. This kind of scenario is the explanation for the origin of Saturn’s ephemeral rings. This is not to say that legends have anything specific to tell us about Saturn’s small moon.

After Saturn was dethroned but before it appeared to move away from the Earth, the ring system formed. Numerous mythologies from around the world tell of Kronos being bound by Zeus:
[url2=http://www.varchive.org/itb/rings.htm]The Rings of Saturn[/url2]
The sequence of events, the timeframe, the when, where, and what planets were involved is not totally agreed upon by all students of the subject. Previously on this thread, the role of Jupiter was discussed. What was its' positioning? Did the Saturn system, upon capture by the Sun encounter Jupiter? Were the planets positioned in the polar configuration temporarily while Saturn entered the Solar System (Thornhill) much as the parts of [url2=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shoem ... -05-17.png]Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 [/url2]formed a chain as it approached Jupiter or was this the normal configuration (Cardonna) of the Saturn system before capture?
There are lots of questions, that is just the way it is, a work in progress.


Saturnists have a quaint custom in which they celebrate this event. At the end of December they bring an evergreen tree into their house, adorn it with lights, ornaments, and sparkles, and put a bright star on the top. This is a way of remembering the stationary sun god sitting atop the world tree, and the accompanying plasma effects which so impressed upon our ancestors' memories. During this celebration, they remember the "[url2=http://www.varchive.org/itb/eclight.htm]festival of light[/url2]" which commemorates the nova like outburst of Saturn.

nick c

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Nick,
There is, to my way of thinking, a huge difference between the planet Saturn lighting up and the planet relocating. I have no problem with the former but have yet to see any evidence of the latter.
Even the material in the two varchive pages you linked don't support this movement.

“Being ignited, all of a sudden, the entire terrestrial sphere blazed forth.” Twelve suns shone with “dazzling radiance” and consumed the world. (The Skanda Purana in Shastri, The Flood Legend in Sanscrit Literature, p. 86). (From the Light of the Seven Days link)

This doesn't even refer to Saturn, or if it does, then there were twelve of them.
Velikosky asks: "The light of the seven days was not of solar origin. Of what origin was it?". Given that the number 12 is mentioned, I would suggest it is originating from the constellations. This conjecture is supported by the phrase 'entire terrestrial sphere'.
The Jewish/Talmudic sources cited by V don't mention a source for the light merely its duration. Niether the Indian nor the Jewsih imply any movement of anything.

With reagrd to the Rings Of Saturn, I think V is barking up the wrong tree here. Rings or no rings, Saturn still moves around the solar system. I would suggest that the chains would be the plasma bolts form either Jupiter or the Sun (Zeus can be either) holding Saturn and perhaps inhibiting its orbital movement for a period. I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure that some Greek sources state that Zeus later released Chronos from Tartaros. Again, there is nothing suggetive of a wandering Saturn in this article.
How does V get Isis as Jupiter and Osiris as Saturn?
As for various ancient folk knowing about Saturn's rings, either because they were a lot smarter than moderns credit or because Saturn was glowing and made them visible - I'll give you even money on either.
The quaint custom you referred to is based on the celestial pole not the terrestrial pole. And is it celebrated all over the world or only by those cultures which have been influenced by Christianity? I think that I am correct in stating that the Jews don't celebrate it. The worldwide celebration or marking of the Winter solstice is a totally different kettle of fish and nothing to do with Saturn.
Oh yes, and how does Chronos overthrowing his father, Ouranos fit in to all this?

[SpaceTravellor]

@Grey Cloud
Just 3? I´ll raise you with 26 . . .

Flying pigs.jpg (18 KiB) Viewed 10982 times

@Nick. C.,
I´ve just read that Saturn have 61 moons!? It must have looked like the 4th of July all around the year . . . but accordingly to Dave S. one can´t count with the Wikipedia informations . . .

We ignore the celestial origins of myth and legend to our great cost. They provide an astronomy stretching back over many thousands of years. Although appearing obscure on the surface, a forensic approach to the earliest global myths uncovers unambiguous correspondence between ancient depictions of the appearance of the sky gods . . .

(Taken out of context)
Sure, there is far to much mythological ignorance to our great costs, just read on below . . .

Revolt of the Giants.

(Again taken completely out of context)
The image above shows a real revolting giant. Giants was/is the greatest mythological symbols. The giant above revolves as a crescent contour of the northern hemisphere Milky Way, revolving around the Earth axis celestial north Pole. In the Norse mythology this great figure was called Odinn, the Great Spear God. In early Roman Mythology, before the Milky Way deities was corrupted for planetary deities, "he" was called Saturn/Saturnus.

This is why the inferior planet of Saturn become confused for the superior Milky Way Great Father God in the Sky. Zeus; Jupiter; Odinn; Saturnus; Cronos; Jahve; God; Allah etc. etc. - check them all out here:http://www.native-science.net/Myths.Links.htm

The Egypt Set. Notis his ears and compare with horns of the Scandinavian Satyr below.

A Scandinavian Rock Art showing a Satyr/Saturnus. Compare this with the Star Atlas Milky Way figure.

Nick, I´m sorry for not commenting on "the stuff of the planet Saturn Myth theory" - I believe it is a corrupted Milky Way Myth. And the same goes for the planet of Venus which originally is the crescent Great Milky Way "goddess", revolving around the southern hemisphere.

Star Atlas.Southern Milky Way.jpg (19.35 KiB) Viewed 10986 times

[SpaceTravellor]

@Grey Cloud,

This doesn't even refer to Saturn, or if it does, then there were twelve of them.
Velikosky asks: "The light of the seven days was not of solar origin. Of what origin was it?". Given that the number 12 is mentioned, I would suggest it is originating from the constellations. This conjecture is supported by the phrase 'entire terrestrial sphere'.

If 12 constellation is mentioned, it is going all around in the zodiac. Someting else that also is going all around the Earth, is the Milky Way Serpent (of which the northern hemisphere "half serpent" represent the whitish (not of the solar origin) Milky Way Saturnus/cronos) Could this be the meaning in the sentense?

Oh yes, and how does Chronos overthrowing his father, Ouranos fit in to all this?

- I think we have a cultural overlapping of deities here. Both are connected to the Sky with seemingly the same qualities - but I´m not quite sure.

[nick c]

hi GC,

Concerning the battle of Zeus with the Titans, some great catastrophic imagery with a few thunderbolts thrown in for good measure:

(ll. 687-712) Then Zeus no longer held back his might; but straight his heart was filled with fury and he showed forth all his strength. From Heaven and from Olympus he came forthwith, hurling his lightning: the bold flew thick and fast from his strong hand together with thunder and lightning, whirling an awesome flame. The life-giving earth crashed around in burning, and the vast wood crackled loud with fire all about. All the land seethed, and Ocean's streams and the unfruitful sea. The hot vapour lapped round the earthborn Titans: flame unspeakable rose to the bright upper air: the flashing glare of the thunder- stone and lightning blinded their eyes for all that there were strong. Astounding heat seized Chaos: and to see with eyes and to hear the sound with ears it seemed even as if Earth and wide Heaven above came together; for such a mighty crash would have arisen if Earth were being hurled to ruin, and Heaven from on high were hurling her down; so great a crash was there while the gods were meeting together in strife. Also the winds brought rumbling earthquake and duststorm, thunder and lightning and the lurid thunderbolt, which are the shafts of great Zeus, and carried the clangour and the warcry into the midst of the two hosts. An horrible uproar of terrible strife arose: mighty deeds were shown and the battle inclined. But until then, they kept at one another and fought continually in cruel war.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm

Excuse me for that diversion

There is, to my way of thinking, a huge difference between the planet Saturn lighting up and the planet relocating. I have no problem with the former but have yet to see any evidence of the latter.
Even the material in the two varchive pages you linked don't support this movement

Kronos/Saturn after being defeated was exiled by Zeus/Jupiter. Exiled is tantamount to being removed or relocated.

“Being ignited, all of a sudden, the entire terrestrial sphere blazed forth.” Twelve suns shone with “dazzling radiance” and consumed the world. (The Skanda Purana in Shastri, The Flood Legend in Sanscrit Literature, p. 86). (From the Light of the Seven Days link)

This doesn't even refer to Saturn, or if it does, then there were twelve of them.
Velikosky asks: "The light of the seven days was not of solar origin. Of what origin was it?". Given that the number 12 is mentioned, I would suggest it is originating from the constellations. This conjecture is supported by the phrase 'entire terrestrial sphere'.
The Jewish/Talmudic sources cited by V don't mention a source for the light merely its duration. Niether the Indian nor the Jewsih imply any movement of anything.

The connection is: the light filled the sky, the number is 7 or 12 Suns, followed by the Deluge. V is connecting this Sanskrit version to the Hebrew which also described a light filling the sky, followed 7 days later by the Deluge. Footnote #4 states that a "A warning of seven days’ duration is also a feature of several of the Sanscrit accounts. See S. Shastri, The Flood Legend in Sanscrit Literature (Delhi, 1950), p. 30."

Anytime, there is a similar sequence of what should be seemingly unrelated events (ie, sky filled with a light brighter than the Sun, 7 days warning, followed by the Deluge) between two seperate cultures we are being given a clue that can lead to discovery, not a random coincidence.
We have to ask ourselves, if Saturn had a nova type event, how would it appear to Earthbound observers? The light would have filled the sky or as V described:

Was it caused by brightly illuminated clouds of ionized hydrogen, or protons, hurled throughout the solar system and poured on earth? In the latter case they could have arrived from the present distance of Saturn in about a week, considering that the proton particles—ionized hydrogen—arrive from the sun in the space of twenty-five hours.(3) This is the time which elapses from a flare-up on the sun (protuberance) to the display of the polar lights—the aurora borealis.

Keep in mind, that V's Saturn scenario is very different from Talbott, Cardonna, etc. While V considered the possibility that the Earth may have been a satellite of Saturn, the introduction of the polar configuration and the brown dwarf star aspect are post Velikovsky.

The quaint custom you referred to is based on the celestial pole not the terrestrial pole.

The terrestial (axis of rotation) pole points at the celestial pole, the location of the latter is dependent on the former. Indeed, the celestial pole is nothing more than the axis of rotation projected into the celestial sphere. Any celestial body that the axis of rotation is pointing toward will appear stationary in the sky. For us, that would be Polaris.

And is it celebrated all over the world or only by those cultures which have been influenced by Christianity? I think that I am correct in stating that the Jews don't celebrate it. The worldwide celebration or marking of the Winter solstice is a totally different kettle of fish and nothing to do with Saturn.

The Christmas tradition is based on a much older non christian tradition. I don't think that Jesus was born in December according to the Bible. The holiday was superimposed upon a preexisting tradition, the [url2=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia]Saturnalia[/url2], which is obviously connected to Saturn. The Hebrews celebrate Hannukkah at the same time, remembering the Maccabees revolt in 165 BCE. My guess is that this too is a later tradition, adapted to and superimposed upon an older one, especially since Hannukkah is known as the Festival of Lights.

nick c

[moses]

Hi Ivar,

You wrote:It must have been something of a celestial view when Saturn departed from the Earth sailing along with al these moons!

You mean like this:

Saturn and moons.jpg

My view is that many petroglyphs depict Saturn and a couple of other planets or moons
strung out in a line. And that these petroglyphs were drawn after the Saturn System
broke up, with Saturn and the other planets seen in the southern sky. Thus those
people that hid in caves in the mountains and avoided the fire and the flood, drew
the amazing sights they saw in the best way they could - on rocks. Tony Peratt has
done an enormous amount of work on these petroglyphs, but I can't find the computed
depiction of what these people would have seen. But no ducks involved !
Mo

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Mo,
You wrote:

Thus those people that hid in caves in the mountains and avoided the fire and the flood, drew the amazing sights they saw in the best way they could - on rocks.

That's how I see them too. However I don't think one can extrapolate anything about Saturn or any other planet from them. Plasma patterns yes, planets no.
To me, a more plausible explanation for the cause is something entering the solar system and disrupting the electric equilibrium. I can also accept planets being knocked about in the ensuing cross-fire and even temporarily leaving their orbits. There is ancient textual evidence for this. I don't see any textual evidence for a re-arrangement of planets, nor any new arrivals.
Clube and Napier's Taurid meteor shower theory seems far more plausible to me, not least because they ancient writers said these catastrophes were regular or cyclical.

In Greek myth, Zeus is also the Sun so his thunderbolts could represent coronal mass ejections. The other gods also have tbolts but Zeus are different and more powerful.

[moses]

To me, a more plausible explanation for the cause is something entering the solar system and disrupting the electric equilibrium. I can also accept planets being knocked about in the ensuing cross-fire and even temporarily leaving their orbits. There is ancient textual evidence for this. I don't see any textual evidence for a re-arrangement of planets, nor any new arrivals.
Grey Cloud
So you see an electrical surge producing CMEs from the Sun disrupting
planetary orbits and causing big auroras on Earth. Then as the planets
readjusted lightning bolts were seen to pass to and fro between such
on a cyclical basis. Velikovsky probably would have been happy with
this in his early days of writing, but not later on. Nevertheless,
this means your hooked ! Planetary scarring from big thunderbolts is
all too obvious. This really happened.

As we learn about plasma physics we realise that the planets sit in
plasma bubbles surrounded by double layers where most of the electrical
potential difference lies. So when one plasma bubble meets another
such bubble then watch out ! Thus interplanetary thunderbolts are
explained. The rest of it - Saturn and such. Well that's just great fun
to think about, and all so important. So many great things to contemplate.
Mo

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Mo,

So you see an electrical surge producing CMEs from the Sun disrupting planetary orbits and causing big auroras on Earth. Then as the planets readjusted lightning bolts were seen to pass to and fro between such on a cyclical basis. Velikovsky probably would have been happy with this in his early days of writing, but not later on. Nevertheless, this means your hooked! Planetary scarring from big thunderbolts is all too obvious. This really happened.

With regard to the Sun and CMEs, I see that as one possible 'scenario'. I would imagine that the Sun has a whole box of tricks, most of which we moderns have no knowledge/experience of.
I favour some sort of intruder which acts as a catalyst to set off the fireworks. What I meant by cyclical was that at the end of every age, which is connected to precession, a series of catastrophic events occur. In other words, the space weather changes with the celestial seasons. This, I feel, is the reason for the ancient interest in astronomy/astrology. These guys were watching the celestial calendar. The Golden Age of the Saturn theorists bears no resemblance to the Golden Age of the ancients, Hesiod's comments notwithstanding. The Vedic yuga system explains it more fully, and the Egyptians had their ages of gods, demi-gods, Pharoahs and men (or whatever). The ancients believed in 'involution' not evolution. If one reads the ancient text in light of what the ancients believed rather than in light of modern ideas then said texts make one hell of lot more sense.
These ancient astronomers, etc left us the information in myth and religious texts. We are not smart enough to understand it. They had a different mindset to us and so it is incumbent upon us to try to put ourselves into that mindset in order to access the information. Viewing these guys as traumatised, illiterate primitives wont get us anywhere.
I never doubted catastrophism, my problem was and is the evidence used by the catastrophists (various, not just V and the Saturn theorists). I read the ancient texts and work from the logic/reasoning therein. I don't think up a theory and scour ancient texts looking for tidbits which support my theory.

[SpaceTravellor]

@Grey Cloud,
You wrote:

These ancient astronomers, etc left us the information in myth and religious texts. We are not smart enough to understand it. They had a different mindset to us and so it is incumbent upon us to try to put ourselves into that mindset in order to access the information. Viewing these guys as traumatised, illiterate primitives wont get us anywhere.

- What do you think is the best way for modern human "to put ourselves into that ancient mindset in order to get the information" out of myths and religious texts?

Grey Cloud, when you for instants read about the issue of the native ritual of vision-seeking and maybe of the biblical relevations, what then do you think of the possibility in the modern society of still having these spiritual experiences?

Would you also like to post your answer and comments on my new topic under section THE HUMAN QUESTION - A SPIRITUAL ELECTRIC UNIVERSE?
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... f=9&t=2099

[moses]

I never doubted catastrophism, my problem was and is the evidence used by the catastrophists (various, not just V and the Saturn theorists). I read the ancient texts and work from the logic/reasoning therein.
Grey Cloud
Don't forget the geological evidence. After all, if any catastrophe was fast
and furious written records would be unlikely. It's a major puzzle and all
evidence must be considered. The geologists and the mainstream astronomers
make it very difficult to dig out the evidence. Of course real evidence
probably exists somewhere. Until then it's quite a headache.
Mo