Mathematical model for the electric universe

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

Hi,

I am interested in a mathematical model of the electric universe. I am a mathematical modeller by trade and I have done some work on waves in magnetohydrodynamics (surface and internal) waves. So I have some knowledge of plasmas and how they work. Is there a main set of equations for plasma cosmology? If you have a link, I would be very interested in seeing them.

Regards

Dr Mat Hunt

[comingfrom]

Maxwell's equations are used.

Quote from Wikipedia

Maxwell's equations are a set of partial differential equations that, together with the Lorentz force law, form the foundation of classical electrodynamics, classical optics, and electric circuits.

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

I guessed that, but that makes up only part of the model required. What are the equations you use for plasma cosmology?

[comingfrom]

One of the reasons Plasma cosmology is not accepted by some. Can't math it.

How will we ever mathematically model plasma, when it consists of countless particles which self generate fields?
There are simply too many variables, moving too quickly, in plasma.

Part of the model. Yes. We can use Maxwell's equation to model and predict the motion of a particle of known charge and mass in a known field. But put uncountable millions of them, all with different charges and masses, together in an unconfined space, who can model how they will behave?

A different approach needs to be used.
The plasma scientists tend speak of structures which form, stabilize, and then destabilize, within plasma.
Check out the papers by Anthony Peratt, is where I would start.
http://www.plasmauniverse.info/papers.html
There are a couple there with "numerical modelling of astrophysical and space plasma" in the title.

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

This is a well known question within mathematical modelling, can you predict macroscopic properties by examining microscopic equation. The answer is homogenization. From my memory (I come at it from a different perspective which is equivalent via a stress tensor for the B field), you use Vlasov's equation for the plasma and then you integrate over all the region of the B field and you get the idea of an average magnetic field per unit volume. This is a continuum approach works very well for MHD and plasma physics in the lab.

So my point it, yes we can apply a maths to it be being clever of what we're modelling and HOW we measure it in the lab.

Hope this answers your questions.

Regards

Dr Mat Hunt

[Michael Mozina]

Hi,

I am interested in a mathematical model of the electric universe. I am a mathematical modeller by trade and I have done some work on waves in magnetohydrodynamics (surface and internal) waves. So I have some knowledge of plasmas and how they work. Is there a main set of equations for plasma cosmology? If you have a link, I would be very interested in seeing them.

Regards

Dr Mat Hunt

As comingfrom mentioned, Anthony Peratt has done some computer modeling of galaxy formation processes based on Alfven's PC/EU theory.

http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.ph ... _formation

You might start with these two papers:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-b ... ..14..639P
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-b ... ..14..763P

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

I'm not that interested in computational modelling, I am interested in mathematical models where I can do some mathematical modelling.

[celeste]

you use Vlasov's equation for the plasma and then you integrate over all the region of the B field and you get the idea of an average magnetic field per unit volume. This is a continuum approach works very well for MHD and plasma physics in the lab.

Here is something that you may find interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKG7HFM21Qk
At about 20 minutes in, Dr Scott explains how the magnetic field in a current filament, should spiral as we move radially out of a filament.
This really is a problem for many current theories, including Vlasov's equation. For Vlasov's equation to work, (as stated in the last paragraph here) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlasov_equation
"the gyro period and the gyro radius must be much smaller than the typical times and lengths which give large changes in the distribution function."

Simply put, for any model where we talk of charged particles spiraling in a magnetic field, we assume the magnetic field is fairly uniform in direction within the entire gyro radius. If Donald Scott's model is correct (and there is increasing observational evidence for this) , large scale current filaments should have a magnetic field which completely flip flops in direction multiple times, within the volume of that filament. That means all our models for cyclotron radiation,etc, will not work within the confines of current filaments in space.
This is something I would like someone to model. For now, i'd be interested in any comments/insights you would have here.

Also we still need to model what happens in one of these large scale magnetic filaments, if we also include gravity. As you've stated, the models we've been using do work well in the lab. The problem is, in the lab, we can ignore gravity completely. We'd have a hard time dialing down the electromagnetic forces, to the point where gravitational forces between the particles become a significant factor. I'm convinced that if someone could model what happens to charged particles that both spiral along in a filament (as Dr. Scott describes), and ALSO are gravitationally bound to each other, we'd have a model that could describe solar system dynamics very well. Again, comments?

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

Has Scott written down a mathematical model for this?

[D_Archer]

Has Scott written down a mathematical model for this?

Here is a paper: http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/ ... -41-13.PDF

I am not sure if it is the latest (no time to search), he had some additions at the conference this year.

Regards,
Daniel

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

I've seen this paper before and it is just standard theory you find in any plasma physics textbook.

I am interested is there is a general electric cosmology model or if you just assume everything is electric and apply maxwell's equation wholesale?

As I think I stated before, I am becoming increasingly interested in MHD, as it's some nice physics and elegant mathematics. Although when you assume finite conductivity and magnetic diffusivity problems become very hard very quickly.

[D_Archer]

I've seen this paper before and it is just standard theory you find in any plasma physics textbook.

Donald's conclusions are not standard and add to the insight of how Birkeland currents can/should be modeled. Birkeland currents are a key component of the Electric Universe.

I am interested is there is a general electric cosmology model or if you just assume everything is electric and apply maxwell's equation wholesale?

There is no general model, the universe is too big. So yes, you have to apply the basic electric understandings we have to cosmological observations, Maxwell or otherwise.

As I think I stated before, I am becoming increasingly interested in MHD, as it's some nice physics and elegant mathematics. Although when you assume finite conductivity and magnetic diffusivity problems become very hard very quickly.

MHD is a valid tool. I think only plasma is hard to understand. And a warning from Alfven:

Frozen-in Magnetic Field Lines
In the case of sufficiently high electrical conductivity, a corollary of magnetohydrodynamics
is the concept of frozen-in magnetic field lines. This
well-known concept greatly simplifies physical reasoning about plasma
physical problems. It is used profusely, but it is not widely recognized
as due to Alfvén. In a longer paper published in a Swedish journal at
about the same time as the brief letter to Nature, Alfvén noted that
“the matter of the liquid is ‘fastened’ to the lines of force, constituting
a series of strings.” He even used this analogy for an alternative derivation
of the wave velocity now called the Alfvén velocity. This was the
first appearance of the concept of frozen-in magnetic field, which has
become a convenient and much-used tool in thinking about magnetohydrodynamic
problems. It is, however, a seductive concept that has
led to occasional careless reasoning in terms of “motion” of magnetic
field lines, a practice that Hannes Alfvén strongly warned against. The
hannes alfvén 657
idealized conditions on which the concept is based are not always valid
in a real plasma, especially in space. Alfvén’s studies of the aurora convinced
him that the use of the concept of frozen-in magnetic field lines
is sometimes unjustified, even dangerously misleading. Especially in his
later years, Alfvén vigorously warned of unjustified use of his concept.

===

Regards,
Daniel

[Michael Mozina]

I'm not that interested in computational modelling, I am interested in mathematical models where I can do some mathematical modelling.

Um, you'll have to explain the difference. If it's computational by design, and plugged into a computer, it's based upon mathematical models.

[MerLynn]

For the more advanced students of the New Atomic Structure/Plasmatic Universe

[Dr_Mat_Hunt]

I'm not that interested in computational modelling, I am interested in mathematical models where I can do some mathematical modelling.

Um, you'll have to explain the difference. If it's computational by design, and plugged into a computer, it's based upon mathematical models.

With simulations you get a computer to solve the equations in their full generality. Mathematical modelling on the other hand, you're interested in a particular scenario, and you reduce the equations down to describing that and you can often find a solution without using a computer. These solutions often give you more insight than a computer simulation. Once a simple model has been obtained, you can add to it and still use mathematics to analyse it thus gaining even more insight into the equations.