Fringe Science

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Grey Cloud
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:54 am

Hi Mague,
This is partly my fault as I should have renamed the image. I cropped it from this Pythagorean image:
harmony.jpg
These images are just a means of conceptualising certain areas of metaphysics. Some Greeks did use four equally-sized elements and some used five, with aether being the fifth.
And they allowed Apollonius to ask questions; and he asked them of what they thought the cosmos was composed; but they replied: "Of elements."

"Are there then four" he asked.

"Not four," said Iarchas, "but five."

"And how can there be a fifth," said Apollonius, "alongside of water and air and earth and fire?"

"There is the ether", replied the other, "which we must regard as the stuff of which gods are made; for just as all mortal creatures inhale the air, so do immortal and divine natures inhale the ether."

Apollonius again asked which was the first of the elements, and Iarchas answered:
"All are simultaneous, for a living creature is not born bit by bit."

"Am I," said Apollonius, "to regard the universe as a living creature?"

"Yes," said the other, "if you have a sound knowledge of it, for it engenders all living things."

- The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, Philostratus, 220AD.
I prefer the three plus one model. The reason that Fire is larger than the others in the model I use, is because Fire is in everything. Fire is the anima mundi; it is spirit; it is life. As in:
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis. KJV). It is also the Logos of the NT. Spirit and breath are the same word in many ancient languages.
In the diagram I used, the other three circles can represent body (E), soul (W) and mind (A). It can also be used to reprsent Plato's tripartite soul. In this case, the soul is the mean between the two opposites of body (E) and mind (A) as the soul (W) shares certain
properties with body and with mind (hence the overlap). In the OT, it is a third of the angels who 'fall' to Earth (including God's second-in-command).

Prometheus means foresight' and Epimetheus means 'hindsight'. They had two other brothers Menoetius (ruined strength) and Atlas (etymology uncertain).
"Now Iapetus took to wife the neat-ankled maid Clymene, daughter of Ocean, and went up with her into one bed. And she bare him a stout-hearted son, Atlas: also she bare very glorious Menoetius and clever Prometheus, full of various wiles, and scatter-brained
Epimetheus." (Hesiod, Theogony).
Plato (and other ancient writers too) do not spread information (nor mis- or dis-). They dispense seeds. They were not peddlars of 'facts' like the modern expert.
In no particular order:
Forty Two

From Tao, One arises.
From One, two.
From two, three.
Three becomes the ten thousand things.

The ten thousand things carry yin on their backs
and hold yang in their arms.
Existence depends on the two.
Tao Te Ching. Bart Marshall trans.
Though One, Brahman is the cause of the many.
Brahman is the unborn (aja) in whom all existing things abide. The One manifests as the many, the formless putting on forms. (Rig Veda)
The word Brahman means growth and is suggestive of life, motion, progress. (Radhakrishnan)
The fundamental element of the cosmos is Space. Space is the all-embracing principle of higher unity. Nothing can exist without Space. .. According to ancient Indian tradition the Universe reveals itself in two fundamental properties: as Motion and as that in which motion takes place, namely Space. This Space is called Akasa .. derived from the root kas, 'to radiate, to shine', and has therefore the meaning of ether which is conceived as the medium of movement. The principle of movement, however, is Prana, the breath of life, the
all-powerful, all-pervading rhythm of the universe. (Lama Anagarika Govinda, 1969)
We live not, in reality, on the summit of a solid earth but at the bottom of an ocean of air - Thales of Miletus (c.625 - 545 BC)
"When the Yogi has full power over his body composed of the elements of earth, water, fire, air, and ether, then he obtains a new body of spiritual fire which is beyond illness, old age, and death".
- Krishna Yajur Veda, Svetasvatara Upanishad 2.12, The Poems of Tukaram (p.88)
"It is the story of all life that is holy and is good to tell
and of us two-leggeds sharing in it with the four leggeds
and the wings of the air and all green things,
for these are the children of one mother
and their father is one Spirit"
- Black Elk, Sioux Elder
Aesop, Fables 527 (from Chambry 303 and Phaedrus 4. 10) :
"Prometheus has given us two sacks to carry. One sack, which is filled with our own faults, is slung across our back, while the other sack, heavy with the faults of others, is tied around our necks. This is the reason why we are blind to our own bad habits but still quick to criticize others for their mistakes." [N.B. In Phaedrus' Latin version of this fable, Zeus is substituted for Prometheus.]

Aesop, Fables 535 (from Life of Aesop 94) :
"Zeus once ordered Prometheus to show mankind the two ways: one the way of freedom and the other the way of slavery. Prometheus made the way of freedom rough at the beginning, impassable and steep, with no water anywhere to drink, full of brambles, and beset with dangers on all sides at first. Eventually, however, it became a smooth plain, lined
with paths and filled with groves of fruit trees and waterways. Thus the distressing experience ended in repose for those who breath the air of freedom. The way of slavery, however, started out as a smooth plain at the beginning, full of flowers, pleasant to look at and quite luxurious, but in the end it became impassable, steep and insurmountable on all sides."
Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 1. 45 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Prometheus, after forming men from water and earth, gave them fire."
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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StefanR
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by StefanR » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:59 am

mague wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:
harmony2.jpg
The outer circle is Fire and the others are, from bottom to top: Earth, Water and Air. ;) 8-)
I smell a conspiracy in ancient greek ;)

By logic it should be obvious that all four classic elements should have the same sized circle and the same sginificance. The medicine wheel wins in that regard.

The conspiracy began when the fire people decided to rule the world.
Plato asserts that the gods created humans and all the other animals, but it was left to Prometheus and his brother Epimetheus to give defining attributes to each. As no physical traits were left when the pair came to humans, Prometheus decided to give them fire and other civilizing arts.
Even Plato was spreading misinformations. On purpose or maybe already blinded by the wealthy weaponssmiths and "burn to expand - regression is death" mindset. ;) Nothing new since the titans :P

And so the fire tirbe is still ruling. 98% of anything that could be regarded as problem is powered by fire. Be it propulsion, an atomic reactor or just a set of batteries. Nevethteless there are still some poeple who dont even cook their meal. And its possible to live completely without fire.n Which is not necessary, but fire is not more then 25%. In a five element system only 20%. And it has nothing to do with the periodic table ;) That all is earth :D
First of all, i would like to see GreyCloud, show me where it shows the circles represent "elements", and then perhaps we can talk about conspiracies. As for now the conspiracy is starting with GC.
I also would like to know were mague has got the quote from where Plato is said to assert something, because for Plato spreading misinformation is somewhat a small step for man but a giant leap for the imagination. ;) :lol:

(edit : Gc was a little ahead) :shock:
(Why not a thread about the elements?) :?
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.

Grey Cloud
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Location: NW UK

Re: Fringe Science

Post by Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:11 am

Hi Stefan,
In seems our posts must have crossed in the aether.
I too was going to ask where the Plato quote came from but I found some stuff on my computer which may answer the question. I'll email them to you shortly/later.
In meantime:
[152e] And on this subject all the philosophers, except Parmenides, may be marshalled in one line--Protagoras and Heracleitus and Empedocles--and the chief poets in the two kinds of poetry, Epicharmus, in comedy, and in tragedy, Homer, who, in the line 0ceanus the origin of the gods, and Tethys their mother, (Hom. Il. 14.201, 302) has said that all things are the offspring of flow and motion; or don't you think he means that?

Theaetetus: I think he does.

Socrates: Then who could still contend with such a great host,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... query=152e
The title of this thread is 'Fringe Science' so, for once, Mague and I aren't going off-topic - we are merely at the fringe of the fringe. :D
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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StefanR
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by StefanR » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:26 am

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Stefan,
In seems our posts must have crossed in the aether.
I too was going to ask where the Plato quote came from but I found some stuff on my computer which may answer the question. I'll email them to you shortly/later.

The title of this thread is 'Fringe Science' so, for once, Mague and I aren't going off-topic - we are merely at the fringe of the fringe. :D
The posts sure did, it seems a certain allignment was present in fiberoptic :lol:
I'm afraid I will have to look at the email later, as I'm not at home right now. But please do send.

I'm no moderator of any sorts, I was not saying it was off-topic, but wo knows some devine intervention might make you a thread in your name, as has happened before :D

Aside from that, although I really like the post with all the quotes, I'm not sure if it is entirely justified to conjoin such different systems. There sure are semblances among them, but some are pointing to different levels, if I may say it like that. But it would take more time to discuss that and judging from the first posts, it would be departing from the intent of the thread. And a house not build on solid ground.....
You named Thales as quote, but I hope you have seen the video's of Grimes (#55 I believe) about Thales, Anaximander and Anaximenes or perhaps the one about Heraclitus, it does give a certain different perspective in my view. By the way that #55 mentions Homer again, so I think you might be interested
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.

Grey Cloud
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:09 am

Hi Stefan,
I've mailed it but if you want to read it at work:
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html
PROMETHEUS & THE CREATION OF ANIMALS & MEN
Plato, Protagoras 320c - 322a (trans. Jowett)
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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StefanR
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by StefanR » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:29 am

Thank you very much.

Below the Grimes video I mentioned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32VQ2FQYdLU

Or if you don't have much time, start here at part 8/12 (starting at about 02:10) and you can here heresy ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJI6cQoXUD0

Don't be too shocked ;)
The illusion from which we are seeking to extricate ourselves is not that constituted by the realm of space and time, but that which comes from failing to know that realm from the standpoint of a higher vision. -L.H.

Grey Cloud
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Location: NW UK

Re: Fringe Science

Post by Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:13 pm

Hi Stefan,
You wrote:
There sure are semblances among them, but some are pointing to different levels, if I may say it like that.
I understand what you mean and I agree. whereas everyone is agreed upon the body, there are different uses of the words 'mind', 'soul' and 'spirit'. For example, the Greeks tend to talk in terms of universal mind (Zeus) and the Indians talk of a world soul (Ataman/Brahman), 'technically' these two are at different levels and Zeus would equate to Brahma.
Similarly, Aether and Water, or Aether and Fire can be used somewhat interchangeably depending on the author. A good example is the Thales quote I used. He uses the phrase 'ocean of air'. Does he mean ocean of aether or ocean of mind? Either way works for me. As Grimes rightly states Thales is speaking metaphorically not literally.

I tend to use the three plus Fire model simply so I can leave out Fire, or more specifically spirit as much as possible. I find it difficult enough to grapple with Water and Air. In fact, I don't do much with Water/soul and tend to concentrate on Air/mind. I have my hands full with Athene [don't even think it :shock: ] without bringing in Persephone and Hermes.
----------------------
Just for you:
Fool's gold?
BOOK 8 OF THE ILIAD, TRANSLATED BY A. T. MURRAY
[1] Now Dawn the saffron-robed was spreading over the face of all the earth, and Zeus that hurleth the thunderbolt made a gathering of the gods upon the topmost peak of many-ridged Olympus, and himself addressed their gathering; and all the gods gave ear: "Hearken unto me, all ye gods and goddesses, that I may speak what the heart in my breast biddeth me. Let not any goddess nor yet any god essay this thing, to thwart my word, but do ye all alike assent thereto, that with all speed I may bring these deeds to pass. Whomsoever I shall mark minded apart from the gods to go and bear aid either to Trojans or Danaans, smitten in no seemly wise shall he come back to Olympus, or I shall take and hurl him into murky Tartarus, far, far away, where is the deepest gulf beneath the earth, the gates whereof are of iron and the threshold of bronze, as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth: then shall ye know how far the mightiest am I of all gods. Nay, come, make trial, ye gods, that ye all may know. Make ye fast from heaven a chain of gold, and lay ye hold thereof, all ye gods and all goddesses; yet could ye not drag to earth from out of heaven Zeus the counsellor most high, not though ye laboured sore. But whenso I were minded to draw of a ready heart, then with earth itself should I draw you and with sea withal; and the rope should I thereafter bind about a peak of Olympus and all those things should hang in space. By so much am I above gods and above men."
Socrates: Need I speak further of such things as stagnation in air and water, where stillness causes corruption and decay, when motion would keep things fresh, or to complete the argument, press into service that 'golden rope' in Homer, proving that he means by it nothing more nor less than the sun, and signifies that so long as the heavens and the sun continue to move round, all things in heaven and earth are kept going, whereas if they were bound down and brought to a standstill, all things would be destroyed and the world, as they say, turned upside down? [THEAETETUS 153e-d, Translation by Francis Macdonald Cornford]
Zeus = Sun, silly Socrates. Everyone knows that god =planet. ;)
The Golden Chain of Homer
Anton Josef Kirchweger
Chapter 1. What Nature is.
Nature comprehends the visible and invisible Creatures of the Whole universe. What we call Nature especially, is the universal fire or Anima Mundi, filling the whole system of the Universe, and therefore is a Universal Agent, omnipresent, and endowed with an unerring instinct, and manifests itself in fire and Light. It is the First creature of

Divine Omnipotence.
Chapter 2. How all things proceed therefrom.
Thus God created first this invisible fire and endowed it with an unerring Instinct and a Capacity to manifest itself in 3 Principles.
Speaking of alchemy, isn't the new Harry Potter film out this week.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

mague
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by mague » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:31 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Mague,
This is partly my fault as I should have renamed the image. I cropped it from this Pythagorean image:
harmony.jpg
Hi Grey Cloud,

i see. Well if Pythagoras was here i would tell him that its rather 4 circles within a bigger circle.
Much like a knob
http://www.karnevalswierts.com/uploads/ ... 000016.jpg

Just imagine that the inner circles touch the outer cirlce and each other. (couldnt find a better picture) The interaction of the four circles determine the shape of the outer "fringe" ;) :P

As long as the inner circles are the same size the outer border describes a circle. If, for example, the fire circle is bigger then the others, then the outer form is no longer a circle.

What i was hoping to show is how every inner circle has its own priority. Most of us here, basically the whole modern civilisation, is white mens fire world. Since i was born in the fire empire i do know that most of the fire citizens have no idea about the other 3 tribes. Fire is just very dominant. There is no doubt that many of the white mans ideas and philosophies are true. To some degree at least. But lets try to leave the fire tribe for a moment. There is a bigger picture beyond the fringe :P

I ll try by using some rough archetypes.

The yellow man is sitting under a tree and his main priority is to breathe. He knows that he has to burn food and add water to his body to live. But he also found out that he can reach a much deeper "fringe" then 3 days without water and 30 days without food just by using controling air, by using breath techniques. His main focus in life is air.

The red man is walking the earth. His feet feel the ground, its surface and what is below the surface. His nose is sensing the smells of the air, his ears listen to the sounds around him. He is one and more with his environment. He knows that he needs to burn food and add water to his body to live and that he has to breathe to live. But he found out that he can exceed the 3/30 rule by staying in oneness with his environment, with earth. His main focus is earth.

The black man knows that he needs to burn food, add water to his body, that he has to breathe and that he needs to be with his environment. But he found out that he is able to exceed the 3/30 rule by doing-not. The best way for him to save water is not to sweat. Efficiency and dissipation is his theme. His main focus is water.

The white man knows that he needs to burn food, add water to his body, that he has to breathe, that he needs to be with his environment and that dissipation does exist. While the red man (Inuit) live in the north without fire, the white man survives in the north with fire. He uses fire to exceed the 3/30 rule. He knows that as long as the spark in him is burning he will live. His main focus is fire.


They are all right. Just as it was told, the creator divided humans in four tribes to teach them 4 leassons. And if they learn their lessons and reunite in harmony they will be a great civilisation. The fifth (perfect) circle or 1st abstract step of humankind.


Now there is one problem. Earth, water and air are able to exists without any motion. They have an quite easy access to peace, because peace is no threat to them. Fire is different. Fire dies without motion. Fire needs fuel, fire needs to expand once it burned down everything in its current area. Fire basically is motion. And due to that the fire tribe currently is ruling and wasting the planet. Fire expanded way more then the others. Some of the others even seem to shrink. The fifth circle is not perfect, rather a egg shape or whatever.

The red, the yellow and the black man are sitting in white mans horrible expensive car and white man wants to go as fast as possible. The red man says: If you dont turn down the fire in your car you are going to take of, fly for a bit and then crash into a tree. The black man says: If you dont turn down the fire in your engine it will evaporate all water, overheat,blow and kill us all. The yellow man says: Even if we survive it, yor engine will use up all fresh air sooner or later and kill us all. The white man replies: shut up, i am driving.

It is not about removing the fire. It is about controlled fire. There is a reason why cars have a fuel pedal. There is a reason why the pedal is working in two directions ;). However, max. burning should not exceed the 25% of global "existance".

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Re: Fringe Science

Post by MGmirkin » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:30 pm

Drethon wrote:Or Earth, Water, Air and Plasma?
Hey, you forgot Bose-Einstein Condensate! :D

So, yeah...

Bose-Einstein condensate, Earth, Water Air & Plasma... :lol:
& I suppose Thornhill's "neutrino sea" aether / Electric Gravity would probably in some way have its own associated physics... If you subscribe to it.

~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

mague
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Re: Fringe Science

Post by mague » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:19 am

MGmirkin wrote:
Drethon wrote:Or Earth, Water, Air and Plasma?
Hey, you forgot Bose-Einstein Condensate! :D

So, yeah...

Bose-Einstein condensate, Earth, Water Air & Plasma... :lol:
& I suppose Thornhill's "neutrino sea" aether / Electric Gravity would probably in some way have its own associated physics... If you subscribe to it.

~Michael Gmirkin
Hello,

to break a lance for the old four elements system i ll try to bring some sense into it.

Those old 4 elements are archetypes. Interacting archetypes. To make it easier i ll call them by their first letter. So all is EAWF. It just depends on how many % each element is dominating the EAWF construct.

Plasma is EAWF with quite some dominance of fire and air. So maybe 8E-44A-2W-46F
Bose-Einstein condensate is 45E-45A-9W-1F

To be honest the EAWF construct cant be described with numbers or percent. The true "math" behind it is geometry. How big are the 4 EAWF circles and how much do they overlap. I was just to lazy to draw example pictures.

The approach is similar to the color wheel tough.

Image

It doesnt matter if there is a BE condensate, it fits into the system. The EAWF system is able to describe it.
It is the same as with pi 3.142............................. The number seems to be endless or maybe doesnt exist, just like BE-condensate. However, using fractions pi turns into a understandable and real unit. Different frameworks, different points of view, same topic ;)

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Re: Fringe Science

Post by Grey Cloud » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:54 am

Aristotle's take on it:
Aristotle's Four Elements
Aristotle's Four Elements
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

mague
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 2:44 am

Re: Fringe Science

Post by mague » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:32 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Aristotle's take on it:
four-elements.jpg
Those greek really have been square heads :) But seriously, not a bad attempt. Similar to the chinese elements it shows the contrary attributes of the elements and how they may interact.

Best modern attempt was 1961. The quarks are quite interesting and very similar.

The reading scientists may forgive me, but scientists vanity is his biggest enemy. Instead of accepting that the blueprint is simple and that all is just a question of position, direction, orientation and interaction of four basic quarks they keep on searching for new particle-wave-bleep-thingies. It doesnt help the truth, but the career and the ego. I mean i d like to have a mague boson as well :P Until today we sacrifice dense knowledge for discovery.

Attendees excluded ofc.

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