Are the planets growing?

[allynh]

Whoa! Read through all the entries in the Skepticblog thread, amazing stuff.

Well done, Florian.

I have got a ton of reading to do. This is the kind of information that I hoped would start showing up if the thread came alive again.

As an aside, you can see that their blog uses subthreads, and it is jarring to see rational answers mixed in with older sneering japes. Much as the Forum is a linear jumble, I can see that it works better.

[mharratsc]

Ya know...

I've not any geological or real physics training, so I see most reports of stuff with a very superficial eye. It also means that I don't have much in the way of pre-conceived notions, which can be helpful at times!

I don't remember which thread I posted it in originally, but I have this little 'pet hypothesis' if you will, that with the hydrogen ion deposition we get at the poles, that water is formed in reaction with all the O2 put out by Earth's flora.

We get a lot of water, in other words.

We see these polar icecaps, for example. the southern one is - what? A mile thick in spots? The northern one is regenerative, so I would think it's hard to tell how much goes in and out on that one.

Anyway, if you couple the idea that we get water depositing on the Earth every day, and couple that with some of the results of recent Russian 'deep wells' that they sank... where they hit water...

Water in the thermal band occupied by the Earth is the simplest liquid, right?

Perhaps the crust of the earth is simply riding on a big ball of pure H20? A water-filled geode?

Again, not a physicist, chemist, or geologist... but given the barest basics of what we can see going on, and with no other pre-conceived notions from old textbooks... it seems at the very least to be plausible, to me. o.O

[allynh]

mharratsc, the guys at Expanding Earth Knowledge Co, think that the core is cold solid hydrogen.

I suspect that is true, because Earth is so wet. Venus is probably just gas/plasma because it is hot and dry from expanding so fast during the Saturn Event.

The Moon is probably empty since it is without atmosphere, and it rang like a bell when the Apollo program dropped stuff on it.

[mharratsc]

I took a look at their 'hydritic core' idea. It's interesting, but I dunno how plausible it is, in truth. :\

Here's some of my considerations:

Firstly- hydrogen is VERY flammable, and I don't see any open flames except near natural gas wells. Hydrodgen, being so small, is very difficult to contain even with modern technology. How could the warmer hydrogen (which is ultra-light and ultra-small as previously stated) not leak out all over the place? We'd have noticed it by now, I think. We spotted methane emissions from swamps, nitrogen bubbling up from the bottom of the sea floor, natural gas leaks, etc. You would think that if hydrogen filled the core of the Earth, it would be the most prevalent gas leaking from just about everywhere on the planet!

Secondly- even if hydrogen would compress down to a cold hard mass, I don't think that the hydrogen would form the core... if the same mechanism (electric current) is at work in the planet as on the Sun, then heavy metals should've sunk during the formative phase of the Earth. According to EU theory (which is why we're all here, after all!) Saturn gave birth to Earth during a parturition event- Earth started out as a big blob of matter! Once the pinch settled, the heaviest elements should've been at the core- not the lightest.

Thirdly- I would presume that *whatever it is* that fills the core of the Earth is not compressible! How do you pack stuff on top, if it keeps compressing under the weight? :\ Water, by contrast, at least cannot be compressed...

Now mind you- this is just the way I understand things, and I'm not a chemist or anything so I may be way off base with my 3 observations! Of a certainty, I find the notion of a 'hollow Earth' to be very intriguing (especially in the light of what I have learned about how geodes form electrically).

I would not think to argue with anyone about their theory of how the Earth could be hollow... but I cannot fathom for the life of me how it could be the lightest element inside, and the heavier elements outside. :\

[allynh]

mharratsc, In the Expanding Earth view, the Earth was made in a gas giant when the electrical energy formed a concretion with a hard crust and a metallic hydrogen core. At gas giant pressures, and cold, hydrogen becomes a metal, so the rocky crust formed around that ball of metallic hydrogen.

Metallic hydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen

Then the expansion is caused by the compressed Earth slowly warming and expanding now that it is no longer in a gas giant.

The hydrogen gas passing through the crust reacts with the rock to make natural gas and petroleum.

It's all there once you play with it.

[Florian]

Whoa! Read through all the entries in the Skepticblog thread, amazing stuff.

Well done, Florian.

I have got a ton of reading to do. This is the kind of information that I hoped would start showing up if the thread came alive again.

About the article in Japan Times: Be careful because it is heavily tainted by Neal Adams opinion, which is very often not supported by facts. For example, mountains origin from mantle upwelling leading to crust uplift, lateral spreading of the uplifted crust and erosion, not change in curvature. Cliff Ollier and Colin Pain wrote a beautiful book about the origin of mountains: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~ ... 246~db=all

[Florian]

mharratsc, In the Expanding Earth view, the Earth was made in a gas giant when the electrical energy formed a concretion with a hard crust and a metallic hydrogen core. At gas giant pressures, and cold, hydrogen becomes a metal, so the rocky crust formed around that ball of metallic hydrogen.

Except the Expanding Earth theory, i.e., constant mass, is easily refuted. Calculation from seafloor spreading show that Earth's radius was about half of today 250 My ago. It means that the surface gravity was 4fold higher for a constant mass. This is refuted by the giant fauna and flora at that time. On contrary, the gravity was likely a bit lower than today. So this is not an expansion, but a growth.
Besides thare are clear evidence that other planet or moons did or do grow. Enceladus is one very good example. There is a diapir (rising mass) at the south pole spreading outward and forming wedges at its margins. The wedges intrude and crack the icy crust. This is really impressive. Look at this picture:



larger size [url2=http://nachon.free.fr/images/Enceladus-diapir.jpg]here[/url2].

Here is a detail of a wedge-induced crack:

The blue dash line represents the limit of the diapir, and the surface inside the blue line is very young.The blue stripes are deep faults resulting from the tension at the surface of the bulging diapir.

[Krackonis]

mharratsc, In the Expanding Earth view, the Earth was made in a gas giant when the electrical energy formed a concretion with a hard crust and a metallic hydrogen core. At gas giant pressures, and cold, hydrogen becomes a metal, so the rocky crust formed around that ball of metallic hydrogen.

Metallic hydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen

Then the expansion is caused by the compressed Earth slowly warming and expanding now that it is no longer in a gas giant.

The hydrogen gas passing through the crust reacts with the rock to make natural gas and petroleum.

It's all there once you play with it.

I would think, given that we accept that Geodes as above are made via mega-lightning strikes then it is likely that the earth was formed much like the above concretion. Multiple metallic spheres covered in silicates and fused together. The silicates cracked as the concretion expanded. It likely formed in seconds, but in the earth the process is ongoing.

[Brigit Bara]

There absolutely has to be a copious source of oxygen coming from somewhere. Having water arrive on meteors, and our lovely atmosphere arising from the process of photosynthesis, is too happenstance. There must be oxygen inside the planet.

Next, if hydrocarbons and juvenile water are welling up from beneath us, as well as straight hydrogen, there has to be hydrogen inside the earth.

We also need nitrogen and a nitrogen cycle for life, right from the beginning.

It is hard to think of these lighter elements being found below the earth's crust, but if Electric Universe theorists are correct, and electricity sorts different elements out by their ionization potential, this would give you layers inside of planets and stars:

Another important phenomenon known as ‘Marklund convection’ occurs along the discharge axis. It separates the chemical elements radially. Marklund convection causes helium to form a diffuse outer layer, followed by a hydrogen layer, then oxygen and nitrogen in the middle layers, and iron, silicon and magnesium in the inner layers. So electric stars should have a core of heavy elements and an upper atmosphere mostly of hydrogen. This renders the difference between stars and planets to be more apparent than real.

It's implied that these elements remain in the plasma state inside of planets.

[Brigit Bara]

The oceans could have been carved out by electrical forces, or they could be formed by growing sea floors. I don't know. Either answer is interesting to me. Either could possibly allow the continents to seem to fit together.


As far as expansion goes, I don't know if anyone saw this explanation for how KOI 74b, an exoplanet, could be 70,000 degrees Fahrenheit while the parent star is 17,000 degrees Fahrenheit:

One idea is that a white dwarf migrated close to the primary star and was gravitationally stripped of some of its mass. With less mass and therefore lower gravity the dwarf would swell to the size of Jupiter.

1, 2, 3!

[allynh]

Cliff Ollier and Colin Pain wrote a beautiful book about the origin of mountains:

Thanks for the heads up on the book. I was able to find a copy. I have got a ton of stuff to read, and CGI software and Mathematica to start using to visualize some of this stuff. Overload, Norman, coordinate....

Except the Expanding Earth theory, i.e., constant mass, is easily refuted.

Yeah, that's why I like Growing Earth better. The implications are scarier, more profound.

My question is:

- How big can the Earth grow and still have a crust.

What are the limits before the crust fails. How big can the balloon expand before it pops. Do we become a gas giant with the remains of the rocky crust, broken up, grains of sand spinning around inside to form the basis for another rocky geode to be formed and spit out as a new planet, a new Earth.

[allynh]

Brigit, I suspect that we were like Titan in the beginning. The classic view of the Earth with a methane atmosphere makes sense if the core is filled with hydrogen and helium that leaks out to form the atmosphere. Then as the classic view says, life converted the methane atmosphere to oxygen.

Maxlow was able to work backward and take the Earth back to when it was smaller than the Moon. If you look at the size comparison of Titan to Earth you can see that it is already larger than the Moon.

The fact that we had a lot of water in the form of seas I suspect is what caused the deep oceans to form. This is similar to what starbiter is talking about in the Duning thread. The presence of the water on the surface controls how the crust splits and forms. The water changes the electrical interaction with the crust. When you look at the moons that don't have seas, the growth seems to be even, rather than making continents and deep areas.

The current oceans filled as the internal hydrogen came out through the expansion areas and interacted with the crust. Remember, there is plenty of oxygen tied up in the crust. Plus, transmutation is happening all the time, especially in something as active as the crust/core.

It's like GaryN and Krackonis both mentioned up thread, electricity shaped the Earth as a geode or resonant cavity. Think of a microwave oven, power comes in from the wall socket and is transformed into microwaves. In this case they are cooking aether/neutrinos into hydrogen on up. Think marshmallows or peeps in a microwave oven, but with transmutation as well.

I'm having too much fun again.

[Florian]

- How big can the Earth grow and still have a crust.

Well, knowing that giant planets have also a rocky core, It can last for a while...

[Florian]

The oceans could have been carved out by electrical forces, or they could be formed by growing sea floors. I don't know.

Sorry, but oceans are not carved. They exist because the growth rate is so fast for 200 My that the mantle get directly exposed to the surface, partially melts and forms basaltic crust.

[allynh]

Well, knowing that giant planets have also a rocky core, It can last for a while...

That's the part I wonder about. We don't know what is inside a gas giant yet. I can see it as a ball of gas with new planets growing inside it like pearls. The magnetic field of the giant keeps them floating and moving around inside. Remember, the gravity goes to zero at the core even by Newton's laws. Who knows what the gravity inside a gas giant really is using Thornhill's dipole method. As the planets grow their placement inside the gas giant destabilizes and are spit out.

I look at the videos for Alien Sky and the way the planets line up in a string. To me that means the Sun had an imbalance and spit out the planets to spread the energy load across multiple surfaces. The planets stayed in line until they grew too large for stability and the whole system fell apart.

There are various toys that come to mind.

Fascinations Levitron Cherry Wood

levatron.jpg (10.49 KiB) Viewed 9436 times

http://www.amazon.com/Fascinations-LEV2 ... 977&sr=1-1

Fascinations Levitron Omega

Levatron 2.jpg (8.87 KiB) Viewed 9436 times

http://www.amazon.com/Fascinations-LEV2 ... 977&sr=1-4

Levitron Omega
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIjc2BNR248

Levitron AG Anti-Gravity Globe

Globe.jpg (4.22 KiB) Viewed 9436 times

http://www.amazon.com/Fascinations-LEVG ... 038&sr=1-5

Fascinations Titan 8-Inch Levitating Globe, Metalic Blue

Globe 2.jpg (13.91 KiB) Viewed 9436 times

http://www.amazon.com/Fascinations-Tita ... 038&sr=1-2

Levitron Globe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO39xm6ypt4

I would love to get the globe, but what happens when the power fails. I don't need to have it bounce around in the middle of the night. Wait! That could be what happened in the Saturn Event, the power flickered sending the planets flying. Of course!