Thornhill's Latest Gravity Presentation

[Bengt Nyman]

...

Nobody is suggesting to use an effective dipole charge and 1/r^2 to calculate dipole gravity between two bodies, because the effective dipole charge varies with angle and distance. That's why Coulombs law in vector form and at long distances approaches 1/r^3. I am using Coulomb's law and 1/r^2 at short distances and on individual coulomb force vectors to show that there is always a net attractive coulomb force between two bodies.
That is one mathematically indisputable form of gravity whether you use r^2 or r^2½ or r^3.
Is there an additional form of gravity ?
The effective charge of each hydrogen dipole 10^-10 m apart is only 9.000*10^-19 of an elementary charge. The amount of skinn that dipoles show each other is consequently extremely small.
The question is no longer whether coulomb attraction causes (part of) gravity.
Challenge 1 is now to test and confirm how much effective skinn charge two bodies show each other and to compare the attraction caused by this to the standard Newton mass method of calculating gravity.
Challenge 2 is to figure out how this, and much else, is communicated through space.

[Zyxzevn]

I think we focus our discussion on observations.

On solar-system level the distances are too large for dipole-gravity,
because in that area any dipole will have 1/r^3.
For these distances we have Newton's gravity, which is 1/r^2.
It seems continuous from the surface to the sky, all the way to the moon.
I think we kind of agree on that.

On the size of water-drops, we can see that electrical forces are very strong.
Water-drops can hang on branches of trees, and resist gravity.
Also insects use electrical charges to attach themselves to surfaces.
On this level we do see the power of electric dipoles.

Now it is interesting to see what effect gravity has on the electrical paths of electrons.
Does the path of an electron change due to gravity, causing a dipole?
It may not even be possible.
On quantum physics level we do not really know the effect of gravity.
But we can see that matter can compress due to gravity.
This sometimes gives a piezoelectric effect.
But where it does, the electric charge causes electrical currents.
Such currents neutralize most of the electrical charge.

So for me it seems that if gravity causes dipoles, any charge is likely to
be neutralized by the electrical currents.

Challenge 1 is now to test and confirm how much effective skin charge two bodies show each other and to compare the attraction caused by this to the standard Newton mass method of calculating gravity.
Challenge 2 is to figure out how this, and much else, is communicated through space.

1 -> I think this is visible on the level of water-drops.
On small bodies, like comets, there may be static electrical charges.
These charges can be caused by the distribution of electrons around the sun as is described in the electric sun.

2. -> With tests on earth, the paths of bodies in the vacuum seems constant.
Except on very small distances (<1 cm).
But what if you have a double-star of which one is positively charged and the other negative.
Does that cause a pulsar?
Or what if the centre of a galaxy is charged differently from the stars around it.
Does that cause the force now (wrongfully) called "dark matter"?

[Bengt Nyman]

On solar-system level the distances are too large for dipole-gravity,
because in that area any dipole will have 1/r^3.

We are not talking about two dipoles. There is no reason to insist that two planets should act as two laboratory dipoles, just because I claim that gravity involves interactive coulomb polarization. The reality of gravity is likely to be a lot more complex than your laboratory dipoles. We are talking about electric engines with the potential to cause forces which are 9.000*10^19 times stronger than gravity and which cause strong force, atomic and molecular bonds and much more.
I have shown that internal charges cause polarization producing weak forces between bodies. The quantitative side of coulomb gravity needs to be properly analyzed, not sweepingly compared to other effects or guessed about.

[querious]

The quantitative side of coulomb gravity needs to be properly analyzed, not sweepingly compared to other effects or guessed about.

Nothing needs to be analyzed until you can show why an unbalanced charge on a foil has no effect on "coulomb gravity".

Also, you'd need to explain why inertial mass precisely matches gravitational mass (weight), something that is understood in terms of GR, but utterly incomprehensible with dipole gravity.

[Bengt Nyman]

GR! Lol.

[willendure]

GR! Lol.

Hmm. Who to believe? Einstein or Bengt?

[Zyxzevn]

.. I claim that gravity involves interactive coulomb polarization....

To me it seems that much of the polarization caused by gravity is compensated by electrons moving to
a place with a more positive charge.

[querious]

GR! Lol.

Just for FUN then, why don't you honestly try to think through what an unbalanced charge on a foil means for your dipole gravity theory.

I promise, your mind won't explode if you come to see your precious pet theory doesn't work. But maybe you'll surprise us with some breakthrough, eh?

[willendure]

GR! Lol.

Just for FUN then, why don't you honestly try to think through what an unbalanced charge on a foil means for your dipole gravity theory.

I promise, your mind won't explode if you come to see your precious pet theory doesn't work. But maybe you'll surprise us with some breakthrough, eh?

Yes. If "The amount of skinn that dipoles show each other is consequently extremely small", but is sufficient to produce what we know as gravity (whatever skinn is...), then an unbalanced charge (extra electrons) on a foil would be a comparatively massive amount of charge. So I'd expect the foil to go flying.

Of course there is a measurable voltage gradient above the surface of the earth, its no mystery at all, and we can easily see if it not strong enough to produce gravity. If it really did induce large enough dipoles in objects, we would be able to easily pick up the induced voltage differentials. For example by attaching a meter to the top and bottom of some object. And then calculate that the electrical force is equal to what we call gravity, but this is not the case.

[Bengt Nyman]

Just for FUN then, why don't you try to think through what an unbalanced charge on a foil means for your dipole gravity theory.

Why don't you. I have explained it 3 times.

[querious]

GR! Lol.

Just for FUN then, why don't you honestly try to think through what an unbalanced charge on a foil means for your dipole gravity theory.

I promise, your mind won't explode if you come to see your precious pet theory doesn't work. But maybe you'll surprise us with some breakthrough, eh?

Yes. If "The amount of skinn that dipoles show each other is consequently extremely small", but is sufficient to produce what we know as gravity (whatever skinn is...), then an unbalanced charge (extra electrons) on a foil would be a comparatively massive amount of charge. So I'd expect the foil to go flying.

Of course there is a measurable voltage gradient above the surface of the earth, its no mystery at all, and we can easily see if it not strong enough to produce gravity. If it really did induce large enough dipoles in objects, we would be able to easily pick up the induced voltage differentials. For example by attaching a meter to the top and bottom of some object. And then calculate that the electrical force is equal to what we call gravity, but this is not the case.

^^^EXACTLY^^^

[querious]

Just for FUN then, why don't you try to think through what an unbalanced charge on a foil means for your dipole gravity theory.

Why don't you. I have explained it 3 times.

I only remember one attempt, and it made no sense. For such a simple, obvious objection to dipole gravity, as pointed out by willendure and me, there should be a sensible, logical, way around it that you've thought through enough to explain clearly, no?

[Bengt Nyman]

Forget for a moment what causes gravity, and explain why your aluminum foil would go flying. Or are you saying that there can be only ONE coulomb effect at a time or it gets to complicated for you ?
How about strong force, atomic bonds, chemical bonds, or this years Nobel prize for creating molecular moving parts based on "coulombic forces". Will you still only allow one of them to work at a time or you will throw another fit ?

P.S. If you managed to add another electron IN ORBIT around one of the hydrogen atoms in the case of dipole gravity between two hydrogen atoms, YES, then you would be messing up gravity, but I don't think you will be able to.

[willendure]

Forget for a moment what causes gravity, and explain why your aluminum foil would go flying. Or are you saying that there can be only ONE coulomb effect at a time or it gets to complicated for you ?
How about strong force, atomic bonds, chemical bonds, or this years Nobel prize for creating molecular moving parts based on "coulombic forces". Will you still only allow one of them to work at a time or you will throw another fit ?

The trouble is that the strong and weak forces and other effects at the atomic scale, things follow the rules of quantum mechanics. QED unifies together elctromagentism with the strong and weak forces:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics

It is the peculiar nature of quantum machanics that allows these multiple forces to co-exist, and for one or other to be dominant on a certain scale. Allowing for example, the protons in a nucleus to remain together, even though they are electrically repelling each other.

We understand how electromagnetism behaves on a classical scale too. Without a quantum theory of gravity we can't succesfully connect gravity and electromagetism together and understand them as a single 'coulombic force'. On your diples.se site you propose the notion that everything can be explained by simple electrical dipoles working in a Euclidean geometry. To me, that just does not add up to producing the structure of the forces being dominant on different scales - its just one single force being combined linearly which will produce simple linear answers, not the deeper structure that we actually observe.

But no, Einstein is wrong, and so is Feynman. Why do you think the world has not snapped up your dipole.se and propelled you to the status of far seeing genius? because better and well tested theories already exist. You won't accept it but it is not hard to see that you are peddling some utter nonsense.

[Webbman]

Well the world is massively corrupt but that doesn't mean dipole gravity is correct either.

While I do believe its an electrical effect it isn't what you think. Gravity is the left over remainder in a charge balancing equation.

the earth requires a certain amount of charge on the whole to reach an equilibrium. It cant attain this and the part between what it can draw in and what it needs is gravity.

since I believe in electromagnetic strands, and protons/neutrons are the most dense forms of this. it only makes sense that a body has a total strand count, and thus there is some point where all strands would share an equal amount of activity or wave function/energy.

since there isn't enough energy for this to occur the leftover requirement still exists and the body does the only thing it can do to meet the demand. It draws in everything attached to it.

there is however a difference between what we see as attached and what is attached from a strand point of view.

is the amount of energy your household heater draw a function of the system or the material of the heater? You provide the voltage but the heating element determines how much current it wants to dissipate as heat. The earth works exactly the same way except the voltage and current isn't sufficient to meet the requirement. Just because it doesn't have it, doesn't mean it doesn't want it.

which is exactly the difference between the sun and the earth. The sun has more than it needs and thus expels. The earth doesn't so it attracts. I imagine there is no gravity at the sun, or the gravity is repulsive. I suppose no one noticed the steady stream of protons coming at us. The remainder of the electrical equation.

I'm going back to NIAMI board now.