A question; cosmic microwave background and our solar system

[Grits]

...that plasmas have been observed to exhibit certain behaviour, and that this behaviour may be a possible explanation for certain astronomical observations is, I think, entirely uncontroversial...

The point you seem to be missing is that the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond. It isn't so much that it's a possibility, it's the inevitable conclusion of the discovery that space is filled with plasmas. Plasmas simply don't behave the way all the ostensibly "neutral" matter to which we're accustomed behaves. Every application of astronomical concepts developed in the ignorance of the behaviour and ubiquity of plasma is likely misguided and false.

Here, however, I'm afraid you've lost me ...

I suspect you were lost before you showed up here, why blame other people for your lack of direction.

After all, all I have done is point to a possible inconsistency between these two sets of (published) explanations ...

I, for one, am not overly familiar with (what you describe as) contradictions between the authors you mention. I don't know if anyone else is, either. I'm also not overly concerned with the differences of belief between various people, the claims will either stand or fall on their own merits. I think most people in this forum operate in the same fashion.

[Nereid]

...that plasmas have been observed to exhibit certain behaviour, and that this behaviour may be a possible explanation for certain astronomical observations is, I think, entirely uncontroversial...

The point you seem to be missing is that the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond.

I've seen many claims made for the explanatory power of EU theory/PC/etc, but I don't think I've come across one as sweeping as this!

I'm interested in exploring this further, with you, starting with some specific sets of astronomical observations; do you consider it appropriate to do so here, in this thread? Or should we have such a discussion in a different thread?

Here, however, I'm afraid you've lost me ...

I suspect you were lost before you showed up here, why blame other people for your lack of direction.

With respect, Grits, unless you are a sock puppet for MrAmsterdam, I'd prefer to see what he has to say (on what he meant).

After all, all I have done is point to a possible inconsistency between these two sets of (published) explanations ...

I, for one, am not overly familiar with (what you describe as) contradictions between the authors you mention.

Would you be interested in becoming more familiar (with those contradictions)?

[MrAmsterdam]

Yeah, that would be interesting having a seperate thread about ;

"The point you seem to be missing is that the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond" Let's see how far we can reason with plasma phenomena.

Keep in mind that we assume plasma phenomena are scalable.

I never had a sock puppet before! Can we have a thread about that too? Maybe I am mr Gritts sock puppet

[Nereid]

Does anyone know if there are corresponding exposures in visible light, so that one can compare the WMAP data with the same projection of the Milky way?

In another thread (and section) of this forum, kiwi asked a similar question; you can use online, free resources such as SkyView and Google Sky to overlay data from a large number of published surveys, covering most of the electromagnetic spectrum (and including the visual and the part of the microwave WMAP's instruments detect).

[Grits]

I've seen many claims made for the explanatory power of EU theory/PC/etc, but I don't think I've come across one as sweeping as this!...I'm interested in exploring this further...

This web site and this forum is already filled with articles and threads containing exactly what you're looking for. Once you've read all of the TPoD and every thread in the forums you'll be on firmer ground.

[Grits]

...the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond.

If this claim seems overly confident, it's worth noting that over 99% of the observable universe is plasma, so plasma phenomena by necessity must account for every observation of the universe (barring the few ostensibly "neutral" environments).

[DustyDevil]

Does anyone know if there are corresponding exposures in visible light, so that one can compare the WMAP data with the same projection of the Milky way?

Here's a link to one of my favorite images of the Milky Way; it's in the same type of projection as the WMAP (ie Aitoff projection):

http://home.arcor-online.de/axel.mellinger/


Here's a link to all the CMB images:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/resources/cmbimages.html


And here's a link that shows similar proections for other spectral ranges:

http://www.astras-stargate.com/light.html


Enjoy!

[Siggy_G]

Cheers, DustyDevil

Nice images - very cool indeed.

[Jarvamundo]

Buckle up

http://www.chromoscope.net/

[Nereid]

The point you seem to be missing is that the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond.

Let's see, shall we?

How about we start with pre-telescopic astronomical observations, such as those made by people living in the Levant, or China, or near what we today call Atlanta Georgia, or Adelaide Australia, or in what we today call South Africa, or Bolivia.

And how about we start with this: the Sun rises in the east, moves across the sky smoothly, and sets in the west.

How does the behaviour of plasmas account for that (set of) astronomical observation(s)?

[MrAmsterdam]

The point you seem to be missing is that the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond.

Let's see, shall we?

How about we start with pre-telescopic astronomical observations, such as those made by people living in the Levant, or China, or near what we today call Atlanta Georgia, or Adelaide Australia, or in what we today call South Africa, or Bolivia.

And how about we start with this: the Sun rises in the east, moves across the sky smoothly, and sets in the west.

How does the behaviour of plasmas account for that (set of) astronomical observation(s)?

Are you pointing us to light and luminous phenomena? That what differs between night and day? The sun?

Mmm, good question. Take some gas put it in a glass ball, get some electric discharges going through the gas...

Et voila, there was light and luminosity* ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_lamp

* In astronomy, luminosity is the amount of electromagnetic energy a body radiates per unit of time.

Plasma generates magnetic, electric and electromagnetic phenomena depending on the substance matter and amount of energy involved. So, if you scale up this plasma ball example to a 'star' size...you'll end up with something that acts as our sun. Including the occasional CME's and what not...

Or are we speaking about the movement of the earth relative to the sun? That would be a blue monday morning question...a question of someone that tries to critic an idea without reading about it....aiaiai.

Even on this forum you'll find examples of the perspective that the sun ACTS like a plasma ball. Or planets SEEM to behave as a homopolar motor (ie. the currents from the sun are what's making them rotate)
See examples;

CME's induce strong electric currents in the Earth's plasma atmosphere
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpBB3/v ... 50&start=0

I assume that you know what homopolar motor is, Nereid?

I also assume that your explanation would be something like; a billions of years ago a known or unknown phenomena triggered the rotation of the earth as we see nowadays. The origin of the sun would be a dust and gas silly collapsing on itself (under a minimum force of gravity), again a billion of years ago...

Again, is it curiousity that moves you here on this EU forum? Or do you want to defend the written words on paper, the school books which point to unknown unprovable phenomena that happend an unprovable amount of years ago every time a kid has a question about the sun or the earth in the classroom?

[Nereid]

MrAmsterdam,

I am merely taking Grits at her (his?) word, and looking at astronomical observations, starting with ones from pre-telescopic times, and the most obvious ones at that.

The astronomical observation (or set of them) is just as I posted: the Sun rises in the east, travels across the sky smoothly, and sets in the west. So, it's those directions and that movement that is the heart of the observation.

[MrAmsterdam]

MrAmsterdam,

I am merely taking Grits at her (his?) word, and looking at astronomical observations, starting with ones from pre-telescopic times, and the most obvious ones at that.

The astronomical observation (or set of them) is just as I posted: the Sun rises in the east, travels across the sky smoothly, and sets in the west. So, it's those directions and that movement that is the heart of the observation.

Well, let's see it as a discussion then if you are openminded.

Give me another astronomical observation. And I'll spot the electric phenomena out of it. Its so easy with a practical theory at hands.

Till now we compared astronomical observations with empirical (plasma, etc) observations here on earth.

"So, it's those directions and that movement that is the heart of the observation" Well, read about the homopolar motor then and please compare the properties of this motor with the properties of the earth's rotation and report back to us, please.

[MrAmsterdam]

The point you seem to be missing is that the behaviour of plasmas accounts for nearly every astronomical observation since the dawn of recorded history and beyond.

Let's see, shall we?

How about we start with pre-telescopic astronomical observations, such as those made by people living in the Levant, or China, or near what we today call Atlanta Georgia, or Adelaide Australia, or in what we today call South Africa, or Bolivia.

And how about we start with this: the Sun rises in the east, moves across the sky smoothly, and sets in the west.

How does the behaviour of plasmas account for that (set of) astronomical observation(s)?

Planets SEEM to behave as a homopolar motor if the currents from the sun are what's making them rotate.

So here is your origine of the electric current; CME's induce strong electric currents in the Earth's plasma atmosphere.

And this would be the relationship between current and rotation; Planets act as homopolar motors.

Does that answer your question?

[Nereid]

MrAmsterdam,

I think you're going a bit too fast; the explanation you usually find, for the astronomical observation that I described in my post, is that the observers are on the surface of something that is turning, smoothly, and that the Sun is much further away than the distance to the horizon of the local observer, so that the smooth motion is apparent (i.e. the Sun is not moving).

If you combine the observations of the Sun's rising (etc), of many people, especially travellers, at that time you, might also conclude that the solid Earth is roundish.

Two more pre-telescopic observations, for our mid-latitude astronomers:

First: Like the Sun, the Moon rises in the east, moves smoothly across the sky, and sets in the west.

Second: except for five notable exceptions, the stars in the night sky remain in fixed positions with respect to each other.