What is Real?

[Antone]

In case anyone is interested in a more organized and detailed presentation of some of the things I've been posting, I've finally got a website up and running.

http://sites.google.com/site/dynamicsythesism/

It's still very much a work in progress but I have a dozen or so pages on the site and ready to read... Much of what remains to be done is either reformating to make the pages more consistent and readable, or stuff that I haven't written yet.

[StevenJay]

I readily admit that I haven't waded through all 14 pages of this discussion, so my apologies if this idea has already been presented.

Years ago, I was having a similar discussion with a fellow who completely rejected anything and everything that he could not detect via his five "physical" senses. The exchange went something like this:

Me: I see by your wedding ring that you are married. Do you love your wife?
Him: Yes. With all my heart.
Me: Do you KNOW that without a doubt?
Him: Absolutely.
Me: HOW do you know that? Which of your five physical senses are relaying that information to you?
Him: (Long hesitation. Then, shrugging shoulders) I just know it, that's all.

At that point, he agreed to follow along in a little mind experiment (he didn't know I was making this up on the fly, and it kind'a surprised me too!).

Try to imagine being born with none of your physical senses in tact. You are being held by your mother, who is, let's say, sitting on a bench at a bus stop in the middle of a large bustling city. Of course, having no working sensory apparatus, you would be completely unaware of any of that. In fact, you wouldn't be consciously aware of ANYTHING, including yourself. Essentially you would be conscious, yet unaware of that consciousness because you would have no point of reference - no mirror, no subject-object split - by which to make determination. From that point of view, it would be virtually impossible to even begin to imagine the existence of all that the rest of the world's billions of inhabitants take for granted as being "obvious" and "real."

My point is, we cannot use our five-sensory detection apparatus to determine the veracity of "five-sensory reality," any more than a knife can cut itself, or an eye see itself. A closed loop can only be defined from a point of perception outside of the loop or framework. M.C. Escher had that concept down pat, as expressed through his reality-distorting visual art. Additionally, those five senses can be (and are) easily manipulated and interfered-with - even cancelled - at will by various means, including some basic electronics technologies.

Given all of that, my question remains; By what criteria is the statement, "this is real," based, since sight, smell, taste, touch and hearing have all been rendered (much like carbon dating) unreliable at best?

After a few seconds of glassy-eyed silence, the other guy laughed, shaking his head, and said he'd have to get back to me on that.

This view, such as it is, is what helped to clear up any lingering doubts I may have once held that "reality" is, ultimately, a subjective projection of consciousness, and that any notion of consensus objectivity is merely a self-reinforcing belief system resulting from the illusion itself, as experienced from within. And what is this subjective "hologram" being projected on? Well, what are dreams projected on? In my version of subjective reality, the answer immediately becomes, paradoxically, Consciousness Itself. And, to take that notion a step further, it's why I know in my heart that the staunchly rigorous objective approach that the scientific method demands will never be able to reveal the deepest answers to the ultimate nature of what is. Eventually, the "physical" sciences and the more etheric or esoteric sciences will have to mature and evolve to a shared point in common in order to advance to the next level of inquiry. I often visualize that process as the two opposing ends of a line rising up and together, eventually (once again?) forming a complete circle.

[Orlando]

The very pulsating beat in all , is the only sense that is real,
Nothing, is a man made fiction.

Matter, or what we classify as substance can never be obliviated into nothingness for there always get smaller to infinity.
What would make "Sense", as this is all intelligence missions for is that if life is motion, a polarity each fragment is merely
sensing by questioning, no matter where or how small or large.

It is our perception dominated by comparable based terminology conjuring up theories and labeling that disconnects us from each other particle , losing the connection that senses the whole, which brings rise to the questions in the first place.

Being is the Primary sense , the other five senses are for this frequency in this shell, to which is housed by another and so on...

All life is motion, our existence the proof, the cycle means eternal, the five questions have no relevance to the whole, only to the Particulate.

The Universe is not Math, it is Equations.
Math and calculations are tools like eyes and a nose, to perform a task,
Math and the art of Calculation are dependant on Variables.
Theories are products of Imagination, we should be careful with it.
Words and terms that can be Interpreted are mental disciplining tools we use
to learn how to solve Equations.

Being is real, thinking is Imagination, all questions have the answer in them, why do we question at all, is the Real Question.

Peace
Or