What is Real?

[Plasmatic]

Love is a word that symbolizes the concept that describes the recognition of ones highest values in another. It is a real thing because it properly refers to a valid concrete relationship between entities with reason. As for your liver and electrons i cant understand how electrons can "explain" anything. I know no other way to answer your question.

Now how does this relate to levels of existence and therefore the idea that some entities are more "real" than other?

[junglelord]

i cant understand how electrons can "explain" anything

Electrons explain current in a wire<deleted>

Now how does this relate to levels of existence and therefore the idea that some entities are more "real" than other?

I never said anything was less or more real, again words in my mouth. If I remember correctly, it is you that has trouble with what is real at the quantum level, not I.

[Plasmatic]

Humans explain the actions of electrons . You defined reality as" all that exists and is real." So to then say there are "levels " is to claim that there are levels of realness and existence. You see what Im getting at?

[junglelord]

No you defined reality as all that exist and is real. In fact it was your definition. <deleted>


So electrons do not explain current in a wire>?

[Plasmatic]

A few posts ago you responded to my definition with :

Sounds good to me.

Also when you edit more than your spelling it disrupts the continuity of the conversation.

[Plasmatic]

Humans give explanations not electrons.

[junglelord]

I need to edit, I have dsylexia and a brain injury. I often edit for an hour on many post.
I agreed to your definition only if you quantifed it too me. I therefore asked about love.
Is love real when it has died> what happened to that love?> It seems to me that you said love was real, but to me it is one of the biggest illusions.

You still did not tell me if electrons explain current in a wire, in fact you first said you do not know how electrons explain anything, then you said humans explain current....is this a game of semantics> "humans give explanations not electrons."
<deleted> Why do you discuss anything then if only humans explain?> Boyd Bushman says that nature speaks and explains....it is not human, nor english. I get more from ten minutes at the beach with only waves, trees and animals then I did from this "conversation". <deleted>

My belief in plancks constant as the quantum constant of angular momentum is more real then the love you had for that first girlfriend, or which ever girl friend you fell out of love with. That was illusion. Yet at the time, boy was it real...

[shrunkensimon]

You suffer from the popular problem of not seperating the metaphysically given [concretes] from the conceptual. Physical concretes fundamenatally are the constructs of concepts . One cannot form the concepts that are reqired for one to even make such confused statements without the conceptual abstraction from concretes of the concept "entity" or "unit". Even contradictions such as "they are no more real than a car" could not be formed without the concrete world of particular entities that are the source of our conceptual data. If theres no difference between cars and thoughts and the unrelated thoughts are just as real how about a demonstration. Please use your thoughts to turn my car into a square circle of gold. Whats that ? you cant ! I gues well have to stick to the rational use of concepts that reflect the world of concrete units.

I really have no idea what you are going on about here..

You asking me to turn a car into gold means nothing. Both the car and my thoughts are real. One is in physicality, the other is not. But that does not make either one more real than the other. As i tried to say, physicality is not concrete.. it is anything but concrete. 99% of atoms are empty space. so what does that make physical reality then? whilst the visible universe is 99% plasma, the atoms making up that plasma are 99% empty space. all you really have is an electromagnetic structure that APPEARS solid due to our particular perspective within the system.

[Plasmatic]

I said electrons do not explain anything and that humans do because you worded your question in a way that meant electrons explain things. I answered your words. All language /sentences are based on semantics or meaning. I can only answer what you actually ask me. I dont know what my view of electrons is yet [other than they dont do any eplaining themselves] so until I do I cannot tell you much about them. So maybe you can help me understand how one "accurately " and on a "provable " fashion describes them in your understanding. In the past you said your position on electrons was a matter of "faith" is that still the case?

[Plasmatic]

You asking me to turn a car into gold means nothing. Both the car and my thoughts are real. One is in physicality, the other is not. But that does not make either one more real than the other.

Yes it does. I can think of a concept of a square circle but i cannot make it "real" or possible. You claimed earlier that :

You will probably also realize how irrelevant and pointless constructs such as "time" and "space" really are.. they are useful tools for the completely logical sentient being to navigate this realm with.. but they are no more real than a "car" or a "tree".. they are conceptual objects labelled upon reality itself.. but that does not make them tangible or anything to do with whats really going on

Time and space are concepts only , but you could not form these concepts or any of the ones Tesla formed with out the sensory input of those real entities like "trees" and "cars" in relation to one another.
.
The point is one cannot form concepts in a vaccum . One cannot relate to sound without hearing the sounds emitted by things,nor color without seeing. Those concepts that do not relate to actual concrete referents are not provable, and therefore not related to science.

[soulsurvivor]

I'm a grandmother, salt of the earth kind of person, and I don't do recreational drugs. Nothing other than what congestive heart failure requires from the pharmacy. I have to make that understood because of what I'm about to tell.

In 1997, I spent the better part of April and May in ICU, then heart surgery, recovery time before returning to my home at the end of May. During my extended hospital stay, I hadn't been allowed much in the way of visitation. I basically had to entertain myself as I was confined to bed with tubes and machines attached to me everywhere. And so, I imagined that I was special and that I had people who saw to my every need. In some sense, I did have that. The only thing not realistic was my perception of it all. And I used my new perception to my advantage to avoid pain.

The odd thing was, I came home still having this unique perception. True reality, I now didn't have everyone waiting on me hand and foot. I didn't have good pain medication. But I had an humble, joyful, grateful appreciation for still being alive. I quickly improved in my overall health, recovering far quicker than my doctors expected. Going into the surgery, I had less than 18% heart function. Two weeks after returning home, I now had greater that 55% heart function, and I was glowing golden. I'm not exaggerating. . . golden. Others saw it, I saw it, a golden glow that came from my insides out.

I enjoyed this new reality that was still here in the physical. I can't even put into words the impact this new feeling had on me and all around me. I saw everything in a golden light. I could hear nature singing. I loved being outdoors and in the sun. I was so healthy and so loved. No one I knew was sick or in pain. Everyone and everything was perfect.

And then in late August, I had a pin stroke and my perfect reality ended as quickly as it had began.

I still crave that other reality that I enjoyed for 3 months in mid-1997. It was my Golden Age.

[Michael Noonan]

I certainly hope you can get that very special gift back soulsurvivor.

There is so much more to reality than we give it credit for and if it can happen just right a first time then a second time isn't to much to ask.

Best wishes,
Michael.

[davesmith_au]

This thread has been removed for moderation.

If it can be successfully purged of all of the off-topic, semantic, philosophical and interpersonally derogatory remarks it will be put back.

Please, all users, let this be a reminder that we're all here in good faith to discuss various things of interest, under the banner of Electric Universe.

Constant bickering between participants should be avoided, it reflects more poorly on us than does some of the way-out stuff we allow discussion of within some of the subjects.

Onlookers can see some people have very different ideas and views, and this should not reflect negatively on EU as a whole, this is after all a public forum. However interpersonal bickering reflects a lack of maturity and control on the part of the participants, and makes the forum snotty at best, and downright uninteresting at worst. Quite simply, if you can't add something constructive and friendly to a thread, best not to add anything at all.

Mature adults can agree to disagree without lowering themselves to schoolyard level bickering.

Dave Smith.
Site Administrator.

[Forum Moderator]

The "Material from Non-material" thread and "What is Real" thread have been merged and relocated here to the HQ forum. The ping-ponging, bickering posts from the former have been deleted. Please adhere to Dave Smith's admonitions in the above post. (fmx)

[mague]

Reality is a huge band of frequency. A "rainbow" of universal proportions.

Our consciousness is a tiny spot and only able to sense as much reality as the size of the spot allows us. We are able to move that spot, much like we are able to adjust a radio to different frequencies. But we usually sense the adjustment as a different reality or abstract reality. We are able to move the spot far into outer space. Analyse x-ray photos or photos from the mircowave band. But those are abstract realities. They do not connect directly to our basic human reality like feeling the wind, the hunger, hearing birds or seeing how gravity and mechanics of fluids let a waterfall drop down.
Thats why we are scholars. Thats why we have therories and why we try so hard to proove them. Its our try to grow the spot until he can sense the whole band of frequency. To reach enlightment .. so to say

There is a little geometric game...

One dot is: I
Two dots are able to reflect each other and mean: I am
Three dots are able to form a triangle or area: I am here
With a triangle (3 dots) and a 4th dot we get a possition: I am here in reference to dot#4
Five dots are: I am here in reference to dot#4 at dot#5 time
Six dots are...

We could try to continue this until we reach infinity Well, the greek found it rather fast when trying to find the square root of 2. What a desaster. It even had political effects How ever you turn it, there is a gap between 7843763889476234872397852895724562457234 and infinity. Live is futile for mathematicans

Thats the point where we return to our natural human reality. Anything we can sense, no matter what, is reality and nothing else exists.