Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

What is a human being? What is life? Can science give us reliable answers to such questions? The electricity of life. The meaning of human consciousness. Are we alone? Are the traditional contests between science and religion still relevant? Does the word "spirit" still hold meaning today?

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Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:08 pm

It is customary for people to describe the Big Bang as a religious creation story, based on Genesis. But the truth is that the Universe does exist. And how it came into existence is a question that scientists are seeking to answer.

So how do you get an entire universe, with its known laws and physical properties, to come into existence?

It seems that Genesis has absolutely nothing to do with it -- if you are a scientist, you still have to have something come into existence from whatever prior state it came out of.

By binning the problem into the "religion" category, people who consider themselves to be objective have avoided admitting that they have not explained how there might be something instead of nothing.

Why not admit that Science, Inc is working on explaining the existence of everything from nothing? --And that may be an inherently unscientific pursuit.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:11 pm

And it has already been pointed out on this forum that the Jes-it George Lemaitre himself said that the Big Bang is based on Greek mythology (specifically, the Cosmic Egg), which is polytheistic.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:36 pm

And as thanks for having bothered any one [or the good order of The Human Question], I will add this:

A Catechism of Quantum Cosmology
by David Berlinski

Q: From what did our universe evolve?
A; Our universe evolved from a much smaller, much emptier mini-verse. You may think of it as an egg.
Q; What was the smaller, emptier universe like?
A; It was a four-dimensional sphere with nothing much inside it. You may think of that as weird.
Q: How can a sphere have four dimensions?
A: A sphere may have four dimensions if it has one more dimension than a three-dimensional sphere. You may think of that as obvious.
Q: Does the smaller, emptier universe have a name?
A: The smaller, emptier universe is called a de Sitter universe. You may think of that as about time someone payed attention to de Sitter.
Q: Is there anything else I should know about the smaller, emptier universe?
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:45 pm

A: Yes. It represents a solution to Einstein's field equations. You may think of that as a good thing.
Q: Where was the smaller, emptier universe or egg?
A: It was in the place where space as we know it did not exist. You may think of it as a sac.
Q: When was it there?
A: It was there at the time when time as we know it did not exist. You may think of it as a mystery.
Q: Where did the egg come from?
A: The egg did not actually come from anywhere. You may think of this as astonishing.
Q: If the egg did not come from anywhere, how did it get there?
A: The egg got there because the wave function of the universe said it was probable. You may think of this as a done deal.
Q: How did our universe evolve from the egg?
A: It evolved by inflating itself up from its sac to become the universe in which we now find ourselves. You may think of that as just one of those things.

"This catechism, I should add, is not a parody of quantum cosmology. It is quantum cosmology."
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby johnm33 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:24 pm

The only way I can square the various religious and scientific descriptions of the beginning is that we are inside a black hole. The moment of realisation was when all the infinitely small particles became one and all the information they held suddenly permeated everything kick starting consciousness. Those infinitely small particles are what we call the voids between the galaxies, everything else we see is just a residual of that stormy moment. The alteration from infinitely dense matter to a superconducting transparent aether suffused with minute perfect in every detail evolving holographic representations of itself just looks like different things to different people.
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:26 pm

It is true that some in the scientific community have settled on a model of the universe in which matter and energy already exist and are in a steady state.

While it is tactful to avoid breaking laws of physics and it is also admirable, it simply assumes as axiomatic [that] matter and energy and laws of physics exist.

What if all scientists had to chose between creation of matter from nothing, or a perpetual motion machine? I think they would fall fifty-fifty.

And speaking of perpetual motion machines, sometimes I think about all of that atomic hydrogen out in space, and I wonder how such a marvelous little structure as a hydrogen atom can persist for not just centuries or millennia, but for millions and even billions of years. I don't understand how that is possible. I sometimes wonder if it has an energy input.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:38 pm

@ johnm33 I think aether plays an important role too. (:
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:06 am

I asked "Why do reasonable people say that the Big Bang is a 'Biblical' creation story?" when in fact it is the theory that gives practitioners of science a completely mechanistic universe. And the scientists who desire to confirm a completely mechanistic universe must give a mechanistic explanation for how matter and life assembled themselves into what we see today.

There is no reason not to give attention to this possibility.

But instead of investigating the hypothesis that atoms sprang into existence and obey the same laws no matter how many billions of light years apart they are, or that life assembled itself and then began to self-replicate, the scientists have actually asserted the full weight of their scientific authority behind these possibilities. Any one who questions or who does not implicitly accept these theories from Kindergarten is viewed as anti-science, and in some cases there are beginning to be legal consequences for those people. In other words, I think it is obvious on its face that the mechanistic scientific paradigm that these practitioners of science have decided on has thousands of societal and individual consequences for the rest of us, beginning with education and cascading through all other areas of every day life.

Therefore, since the BB (and even a steady state hypothesis) suit a positivist and reductionist paradigm, and because it -- along with the nebular hypothesis and transmutation of species -- is also state-enforced theory, it is inaccurate to say that it is Biblical. The difference is very simple: a mechanistic scientific paradigm attempts to give physical explanations for matter, energy, and their properties, while the Biblical creation reflects an ordered universe in which there are not only reliable physical laws, but also reliable moral and spiritual laws as well. The more we live in harmony with these the better our relationships and lives will be. And the more hostile we are to these laws, the more damage we suffer. And in all cases, we are capable of choosing, and intelligently adjusting to the physical, moral, and spiritual laws of this [divinely created] universe.
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:40 am

But why do practitioners of science want to develop and enforce a mechanistic scientific paradigm?

What is in that fruit?

We'll look and see what scientists themselves are saying in text books about the role of science:

"A knowledge of science...tells us what is possible in nature. Scientific knowledge helps us predict possibilities in nature even before these possibilities have been experienced. It provides a way of connecting things, of seeing relationships between and among them, and of making sense of the myriad of natural events we find around us. Science broadens our perspective of the natural environment of which we are a part."



It seems that practitioners of science claim the unique expertise to determine what is and is not possible. And if that is not enough, they describe the relationships and causes [between events and things], and make sense of natural events. Science even determines our perspective and how we each fit into the natural environment.

So let's keep an honest appraisal of what scientists may gain as they convince more and more people that they are able to interpret all things through physical laws which they have made.

[ref:] Conceptual Physics, 7th Ed.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:55 pm

Let's look at that quote a little more closely. I did not mean to rush by.

"A knowledge of science...tells us what is possible in nature."


While determining what is and is not possible, he forgot to add science makes them modest and humble too.

Scientific knowledge helps us predict possibilities in nature even before these possibilities have been experienced.


It is almost as if to say that you should not be very surprised when scientific knowledge enables practitioners to know the future.

It provides a way of connecting things, of seeing relationships between and among them,


Or, conversely, it can disconnect cause and effect so badly that individuals are blinded to what they may be looking at.

and of making sense of the myriad of natural events we find around us.


Scientists are uniquely qualified to interpret reality.

Science broadens our perspective of the natural environment of which we are a part."


Scientists are concerned with informing people's perspective, and defining people's place in the natural environment.


If this was a contract, would any one really sign that?

Maybe someone else would like to read between the lines!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Webbman » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:56 am

for my creation story all that was required was for a single aetheric strand to randomly connect to itself forming a circuit birthing the first electron, first potential difference, first energy storage device, first sustained charge.

no big bangs or anything fancy required.
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:16 pm

For my creation story all that was required was for a single aetheric strand to randomly connect to itself forming a circuit birthing the first electron, first potential difference, first energy storage device, first sustained charge.


That is a very promising beginning. (:

no big bangs or anything fancy required.


The way I understand the steady state models, some of them assume and begin with a sea of aether. I do not know if that is an infinite sea, or a finite, contained sea. And the aether is comprised of neutrinos.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Webbman » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:46 pm

I consider neutrinos to be electron births. More of an event than a particle.
The secret to the universe is a rubber band.
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:50 pm

Then what is aether?
And do you have it fill all of space as a medium?
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Why do you say the BB is a "Biblical" creation story?

Unread postby Webbman » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:36 am

to me the aether is the entire collection. My free strands generally expressed as heat or wild energy are the base. They randomly form the electron loops which forms the light and the wound long chains (ball) form the protons. The neutron is an assembly of the loop and chain.

i wouldn't call it a medium per say but it does act as one. Its not separate as electrons come and go all the time but protons and neutrons can only come from the sun foundry. Electrons and light are interchangeable because they are the same with a different shape.
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