Simple Games for Science

Has science taken a wrong turn? If so, what corrections are needed? Chronicles of scientific misbehavior. The role of heretic-pioneers and forbidden questions in the sciences. Is peer review working? The perverse "consensus of leading scientists." Good public relations versus good science.

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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:04 pm

Lloyd says High heel night ox

Lloyd that is a really clever and fun mnemonic device. I really like that! Can you hum a few bars? (:

(I am thinking of Tom Lehrer's Element song -- only in the order of appearance in the periodic table.)

There is a lot to be said for memorization. I still remember most of the skeletal system and some of the muscular system from memorizing them in high school. And formulas. So even without the card game you have something really fun there.
I think we might add that for the top periods and see if they can retain it. Also I am happy to report that they do mine many economically important ores and extract the metals in minecraft. (:

There is a deck for the elements by the author Theodore Gray, but I don't think it would work for the game. Thanks Lloyd.

ref:
https://youtu.be/AcS3NOQnsQM
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:36 pm

Also, I think the cards would not be too hard to make at all.

Thanks Lloyd. There are probably some great possibilities in educational games.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:48 pm

"Brigit", some of us could try playing the Elements card game on an etherpad sometime, if anyone likes. I think I'd enjoy playing. It would take a little work to figure out how to make it work.

Yeah, I really like Tom Lehrer's song of Elements too. I guess he covers a few more than a hundred of them. His song is on Youtube. I guess everything is. I had links some time back to Youtube videos of flashcards for teaching babies reading and math, but I don't remember where I stored them. I hope to find them again some day.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:26 pm

Lloyd says, "I had links some time back to Youtube videos of flashcards for teaching babies reading and math, but I don't remember where I stored them. I hope to find them again some day."

It is very hard to organize twenty years'-worth of research!

I did have a bad experience once with a game that someone tried to give our kids. It had knobs which you turned and if you did not balance the inputs, the earth became overpopulated and the resources ran out. The last thing you want is to misuse games with kids. What is the point of that? To fashion these little know-it-alls who think they can set the temperature and the population of the earth, and manage the rest of us? I said, "No thank you."

But this generation is amazing. They really use technology in wonderful ways. They teach themselves to create things that I never would have dreamed of doing myself as a young person. They will surprise every one. I think the concept of the sandbox game genre is original and unexpected.

Maybe we will give the card game a trial run first and let you know. I am not usually good with games or crafts but that would be fun.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:22 am

Maybe you could start with the first forty elements on 20 cards and then add 10 more cards every few weeks until all 50 cards are used.

Kids might even enjoy helping to make the cards. The cards could be very amateurishly made and still be just as educational when the game is played. And kids can have some positive pride in making things themselves.

I agree that kids don't need to be taught just anything that comes along, like fearful or pessimistic things. I used to think it would be good for all kids to learn reading and math early, then it wouldn't be hard for them in school. But I decided eventually that it's more important that kids learn morality first. By that I mean caring about others. Learning reading and math early would still be very good, but the morality or caring needs to be included. I favor home schooling or "unschooling", which means self-directed learning, although kids need some direction too. But they need to learn to direct themselves as soon as they can. Schooling is actually abusive, because kids are forced to do things against their will and they're taught bad behaviors, such as using force, shaming, etc to manipulate others, just as teachers do to them. I had planned to be a teacher, but for home schooling, not regular schooling. To me, school was a prison when I was in school, even though I enjoyed learning things. Kids can learn reading and math much better than schools normally teach them.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:20 pm

Reference
Augmented Reality Development Lab
https://youtu.be/75Y7ZRCnZ1I
Manipulate handheld images in 3D.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby kodybatill » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:22 pm

Lloyd wrote:Hi Geoff, how did you play the game with me? I didn't see the game, or your rules for it. Before, what did you mean by automated quizzes etc? Your post was hard to understand. I'll try to answer your questions.

You asked what I'm seeking. I want to start with designing simple games that are educational and progress to designing games that improve science discussion and science. And I could use helpers who have similar interests. So I invited members here who indicated they're interested in improving science etc.

In the previous similar thread here, I gave an example of using a setup like Dungeons and Dragons, where the Rules would require doing some research to use as passwords to move to the next room. That seemed a bit too advanced to start this discussion with, so I started this thread to try to start out simpler, with educational games.

So I asked at the start of this thread for members to mention what kinds of games they like and then see if we can tweak them to make any of them educational.

It was Kody's idea to make a game to simulate plasma motions for EU. I don't know if he accepted the mission I assigned him yet for that, which was to play it with someone and see how well it performed.

Any game ideas are fine, but online games would be easiest for us to collaborate on. I'd like to see what your Rules are for your What-If game.

I don't know that it matters what age group we design games for. Age 1.5 is about ideal for learning language including reading and math and the names of lots of things. Flash cards are good for that. The card game I described above for "Brigit" could be used on 3-year-olds, if they've learned numbers by then. Young ones need to keep playing such games occasionally, or they tend to forget some of it, due to the "Use it or Lose it" rule.

Adults can learn new languages best through actions, i.e. commands, i.e. someone saying a word or phrase and then demonstrating it in action, such as "Stand by the frog" and then doing that.

You say this site is a bit over some peoples heads especially younger students. I'm open to trying out a game to address that problem, if you or anyone else is too.

I'm not seeking to make some super resource page here, unless someone else wants to, but I'm trying to help CNPS make a resource on their forum, their website and their alternative science Wiki.

You said "A refined but general request to site patrons should supply you with more resources than you can handle". What kinds of resources do you mean? I want to develop a fun process for science discussion or collaboration. Si?


I am still down to help! Sorry for not responding. I check this forum frequently. I am not to busy, so within a month I may be able to start playing and perfecting my proposed game 1 - and will even find out how to simulate all 3 types of green and all 3 types of white that are used in the 90 degree segments.

Joy and health to your thoughts!
And thank you Lloyd.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby fractal-geoff » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:19 pm

Resource
Lloyd are you aware of “mega memory” and similar courses of memory development that were popular in the 80’s & 90’s? They carried the technique of telling a story with key words, into an art form.

And there are even older versions… Harry He Likes Beer But Cup Not Over Flowing or Neil’s Natty Mg Always Silences Peoples Social Clat-Ar (Yes-old school-different than flash card s)

If you are looking for site applications that don’t involve writing or buying software, have you considered running it as a competition? Fairly easy to set up…
Aim it at the level you wish to educate. Get them to make up stories , poems, limericks or whatever.
How twisted would it be to learn the periodic table with dirty limericks or Rapp? Change the face of education entirely…
Obviously there are a bunch of rules about running competitions but they can be a very cost effective tool.
Afterwards ownership of work usually falls to the competition holder to use as they wish…

I also mentioned 3d printables: Now-days you can create printable awards.
They can be virtually custom to a site with logos built in. (Little philosophers & lightening bolts)
The file gets sent to some local print company and they even handle delivery.

Yes bots are a plague, even got a spam the other day advertising “get by’s for most captures”
You think Bruce Nappi would be interested in my ravings??? Maybe…

So you asked about games; I said, here is a game and you might find the story amusing.
As a result of this games logics you might find something that affects the electric universe perceptions if you look right there. I didn’t intend to show the game in full, only pointing at one of the more interesting outcomes. A very special type of blind spot we have. I have been trying to figure a better way to explain it.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:03 pm

Lloyd says, "I agree that kids don't need to be taught just anything that comes along, like fearful or pessimistic things. I used to think it would be good for all kids to learn reading and math early, then it wouldn't be hard for them in school. But I decided eventually that it's more important that kids learn morality first. By that I mean caring about others. Learning reading and math early would still be very good, but the morality or caring needs to be included. I favor home schooling or "unschooling", which means self-directed learning, although kids need some direction too. But they need to learn to direct themselves as soon as they can. Schooling is actually abusive, because kids are forced to do things against their will and they're taught bad behaviors, such as using force, shaming, etc to manipulate others, just as teachers do to them. I had planned to be a teacher, but for home schooling, not regular schooling. To me, school was a prison when I was in school, even though I enjoyed learning things. Kids can learn reading and math much better than schools normally teach them."

Lloyd, I really enjoyed your remarks on education. I want you to know what a mighty temptation it was to respond and amplify the truth of many of your ideas. You also made several loaded statements that were, well, controversial. Since the subject of the thread is game development for scientific learning, we'll try to be on topic.

When you say "Learning reading and math early would still be very good, but the morality or caring needs to be included," I really appreciate the process and conclusion you shared. But of course an important principle you always hope your kids learn is to finish their work before they play. Duty first, then entertainment. I could go on to prove that young people who are spending too much time in entertainment are debilitated and hampered by it, but I think it is fairly obvious to most people. I would not go so far to say allowing kids to have too much entertainment is "child abuse" in a legal sense, but it is still not a very nice thing to do to the next generations. One of the difficulties for very wealthy families in raising children is that they are spoiled, and no matter what they do, they will still be wealthy. (It does not take them long to do the math.) I have reached the conclusion that one of the greatest destroyers of human intelligence and rationality is a guaranteed outcome. But it is hard for very very poor families to raise children because of the instability and the need for every one to work, and possibly nutritional deficiencies that cause mental impairments (B12, salt, superior proteins, etc.). Overall, rich-middle-or-poor, too much entertainment does make kids rude and less willing to work. Eventually, they become less able to work. A generation of people who cannot, and will not, do their best on the job is not only difficult for employers, but all of us in society will eventually be made miserable by shoddy work and unreliable services. That is good ol fashioned morality. So let's all provide excellent value to each other when we do something, okay? (:

So probably we can all agree that the idea of making sure learning always takes the form of games or entertainment is neither possible nor desirable. Rather, the purpose of education is in part to give the student the confidence that with effort, focus, and diligence he can master a skill or a subject. And a corollary of that is how well he is able to do something depends on the hours and effort he puts into it. I think that was the idea behind grading students' work from A to D to F. Learning is not easy and all of us have to learn how to make ourselves learn, and how to retain what what we have already learned. A little bit of self-awareness helps us to see that just because we comprehend something at first reading does not mean that we have really learned it. It will take additional methods such as memorization, hands-on experience, repetition, writing, diagrams, cramming and more reading. Games could certainly be a part of that process.

My only personal experience with games in learning is team sports during high school. Also, with board and card games, kids get a chance to learn to be gracious in victory, and in defeat. That is good for them. Especially boys.

Also, as far as the laws governing education, they vary from state to state. These are determined by the voters and legislature, and involve the subjects required and the hours of instruction. For example, Washington requires 900 hours of reading, writing, language, science, math, music and art appreciation, health, occupational education, social science, and history. These laws are interpreted broadly and subjects can be doubled. So what ever method of schooling you select -- and Lloyd brought up "unschooling" -- every student will probably have to learn subjects they naturally like and others they do not like. Making eleven-year-olds figure out the surface area and volume of a cone is not child abuse, although they will try to convince you that it is.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:00 pm

The reason I addressed some possible problems with gaming and entertainment used as educational tools is because a few years ago, under the previous administration, there was a government stimulus for the development of digital games to be used in public education. Here is a sampling...

The White House Education Game Jam - Obama White House Archives
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/bl ... n-game-jam
Oct 6, 2014 - For four hours, the participants demonstrated and discussed their education game prototypes, shared their experiences developing the games, ...

Games Win Big in Education Grants Competition - Obama White ...
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/.. ... mpetitio...
May 10, 2013 - Second, educators are increasingly learning to use games to motivate ... II: Development of a Second Grade Game-Based Integrated Learning ...

The president's 'gaming guy' tells us that educational games fascinate ...
venturebeat.com/.../the-presidents-gaming-guy-tells-us-that-games-fascinate-obama/
Oct 29, 2013 - A few Silicon Valley investment firms focus on educational games, and ... DeLoura and the Obama administration are currently developing new ...

President Obama Launches National STEM Video Game Challenge ...
https://thejournal.com/.../president-ob ... -challen...
Sep 16, 2010 - The total prize pool is valued at $50,000, and includes cash prizes, computers, educational and game development software, books, and other ...


I remember this happened at the same time various states were seeking to eliminate summer vacations and to extend school programs to before- and after- school hours, and create programs to keep the schools open on week ends. So naturally kids would have to be provided with video games to get them interested.

People need to think through what a constant diet of games and entertainment will do to children, even if they are "educational." I think educational video games are pretty limited in their usefulness and come with some real costs.

But that is not to say that Lloyd's ambition to generate ideas for science games, even for adults, does not have some great possibilities.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:59 pm

Government control over kids is certainly a backward (Globalist) idea, bordering on slavery.

"Brigit", I look forward to hearing if the Elements card game idea works out. I hope to try it myself as well.

Kids do need way more time outdoors and out of classrooms in order to play in Reality, not VR, and to learn to do things on their own and in collaboration with others. Forcing kids to do things against their will becomes increasingly abusive as they get into school age and older.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby fractal-geoff » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:36 pm

Hi all; among many interesting comments I picked up on one in particular ‘school felt as a prison’.

My early schooling in the 1960-70 period was almost devoid of any shaming or manipulation of the type you refer.
It was everywhere in tertiary study I did 2005-2010… Changing times… Influence of a certain type of TV program?

I assume you didn’t actually mean that there are bars on the windows & doors, cameras & guards at the entrance? Locker searches, pat downs, terror drills?
Remember “repeat after me… or you fail”
The ‘science of morality’ would be an interesting subject …. Bet I could turn it into a game…
But... looks like its already well played.

So ... You don't want Govt morality taught?
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:26 am

ELEMENTS GAME
I made my first version of Elements flash cards, which can now be played online here:
https://quizlet.com/224372547/elements-flash-cards/

I tried the match game several times. I put stars by the cards I don't know well yet, so the game just gives me those cards to match.
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:50 am

I like the Inept Plutocrat :D
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Re: Simple Games for Science

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:02 am

Those are two beautiful games you made.

Lloyd 2
Every one Else 0

So Lloyd. I wanted to get back to you sooner. I was putting off getting started in September because that is when we choose our curricula. As teen agers, I did not know if they were going to demand changes, or have new ideas that would require a lot of purchases, and so I was delaying. In the end, I actually let them play a game (Clue) and then I told them it was time to choose and commit to the curricula for fall. They were involved in the game while I made my suggestions. I even said that we would memorize the top of the Periodic Table. Every thing went fine. No objections. So there is a place in education for games, absolutely!

So we would love to try your game on Monday.
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