Electric Biology (TPOD Dec 30, 2010 )

[HelloNiceToMeetYou]

Just wondering, on the TPOD you wrote “Sheldrake's "morphic fields," protein jitter, gamete alteration that leads to speciation, and the electric charges in cells might all be manifestations of plasma's emergent properties.” I think morphic fields are as likely as dark matter as we have no proof of their existence. Just wondering what did you mean by this? That it can be related? How so?

[Nitai]

I think morphic fields are as likely as dark matter as we have no proof of their existence.

What's your basis for this? Apparently there are experiments to " prove " their existence. Are you doubting the efficacy of the experiments? Maybe you should do an in depth post instead of a small paragraph that has virtually little argument?

[HelloNiceToMeetYou]

http://www.skepdic.com/morphicres.html

This enough for you?

'Morphic resonance' (MR) is put forth as if it were an empirical term, but it is no more empirical than L. Ron Hubbard's 'engram', the alleged source of all mental and physical illness. The term is more on par with the Stoic's notion of the logos. Bergson's notion of the élan vital, or Plato's notion of the eidos than it is with any scientific notion of the laws of nature. What the rest of the scientific world terms lawfulness--the tendency of things to follow patterns we call laws of nature--Sheldrake calls morphic resonance. He describes it as a kind of memory in things determined not by their inherent natures, but by repetition. He also describes MR as something which is transmitted via "morphogenetic fields." This gives him a conceptual framework wherein information is transmitted mysteriously and miraculously through any amount of space and time without loss of energy, and presumably without loss or change of content through something like mutation in DNA replication. Thus, room is made for psychical as well as physical transmission of information. Thus,

it is not at all necessary for us to assume that the physical characteristics of organisms are contained inside the genes, which may in fact be analogous to transistors tuned in to the proper frequencies for translating invisible information into visible form. Thus, morphogenetic fields are located invisibly in and around organisms, and may account for such hitherto unexplainable phenomena as the regeneration of severed limbs by worms and salamanders, phantom limbs, the holographic properties of memory, telepathy, and the increasing ease with which new skills are learned as greater quantities of a population acquire them.*
While this metaphysical proposition does seem to make room for telepathy, it does so at the expense of ignoring Occam's razor. Telepathy and such things as phantom limbs, for example, can be explained without adding the metaphysical baggage of morphic resonance. So can memory, which does not require a holographic paradigm, by the way. The notion that new skills are learned with increasing ease as greater quantities of a population acquire them, known as the hundredth monkey phenomenon, is bogus.

[HelloNiceToMeetYou]

Reception:

Sheldrake's ideas have resonated with the general public and some physicists such as David Bohm. The idea that fields may influence cells has even received cautious support from biologists Janis Roze and Sue Ann Miller. However, Sheldrake's work has met with a hostile reception from other scientists. Neurophysiologist and consciousness researcher Christof Koch, for example, has stated that discussing Sheldrake's ideas is a "waste of time," given the absence of hard, physical evidence and Sheldrake's lack of understanding of modern neurobiology. Henry Bauer compared Sheldrake's ideas to Wilhelm Reich's generally discredited claims of orgone energies. In his Skeptic's Dictionary, Robert Todd Carroll stated, in an article highly critical of Sheldrake's theory of morphic resonance, that "although Sheldrake commands some respect as a scientist because of his education and degree, he has clearly abandoned conventional science in favor of magical thinking."

Scientific reception:

Morphic resonance predicts that memories of one generation are automatically passed on to the next generation, though unconsciously, or to other conspecifics. A neuroscientist and memory expert, Steven Rose, has been critical of this view. A major reason for the criticism is that Rose does not feel there to be any anomalous phenomena which require the theory of morphic resonance as an explanation. Rose suggested an experiment to resolve the matter. In Rose's opinion the resulting study, done in collaboration with Sheldrake, disproved morphic resonance, but Sheldrake has challenged this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_She ... etic_field

I have not seen Sheldrake's challenge succeed yet? Got any links that he has?

[HelloNiceToMeetYou]

Anyone??? A discussion about this would be greatly appreciated. Anyone here interested in Biology? besides weboflife?

[kiwi]

hi , I saw your thread here the other day, there are other similar threads about this forum , not sure where exactly but they are here somewhere, I recall participating in one a few months back ..... anyway I copied your query and sent ot to a friend who works in a uni in Germany (basically a Bio-technician ...MRI scanning etc) with an interest in NDE's and other what may be called "fringe" ideas regards the broader aspects of the field ..... have not heard back (sent message 24h ago)... but will let you know if anything relevant in way of a reply happens

cheers

[Sparky]

Anyone??? A discussion about this would be greatly appreciated. Anyone here interested in Biology? besides weboflife?

I just watched a NOVA program about genetics....if my memory is serving me, it seems that the human's larger brain is a result of a mutation resulting in muscle weakness..it is expressed in the jaw muscle, reducing the tension on the skull, allowing it to continue to grow....the apes do not have this genetic weakness and their jaw muscles are huge, and their cranial size is about 1/2 of human's...

the gene was found by a dr. looking for a genetic link to MS....he saw in one of the muscle forming genes the mutation and subsequent tests showed that it was indeed a mutation that allowed the brain to develop in a larger cranial cavity by weakening the jaw muscles....

i do not see how a "morphic field" could control species presentation when such tiny influences on the switching genes can result in really large differences. genetic manipulations can evidently over ride the Morphic field if there is one.

But, i had to choose a "belief", morphic resonance would be my choice....

[D_Archer]

Electric flowers > http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2013/9163.html

Plants are usually charged negatively and emit weak electric fields. On their side, bees acquire a positive charge as they fly through the air. No spark is produced as a charged bee approaches a charged flower, but a small electric force builds up that can potentially convey information.

And morphic fields are indeed unproven, but electric fields are not unproven, it is a two way street, yin/yang, negative/postive feedback. If biology is a learning system, the question remains, where is the information stored? Or is our understanding of storing information too limited to understand how it actually works.

Regards,
Daniel

[seasmith]

D,

Link to original Nature mag article:

http://www.nature.com/news/bumblebees-s ... rs-1.12480


[their images must be cgi's, eh?]

[Spektralscavenger]

According to Sheldrake the "morphic fields" are unphysical and being so more a matter of metaphysics. I think structures and resonances in the electric background are not "unphysical" but very physical and material albeit not molecular nor atomic. I bet the axiality of biomolecules is related to electric fields in the cells, something like a (subtle) helicoidal current for amino acids and the other way helicoidal current for nucleic acids.

[Zyxzevn]

I agree that this is more a metaphysical matter, the morphological field does not need to be physical to be real.

BUT, I çan perceive auras in different ways, and some friends of my can. I can even teach other people to do it. So something is really there.
In my research I have found that auras are producing CHI, (or Prana). And these can affect the physical world in any way possible. That means that auras and CHI are metaphysical constructs.

And we can not prove metaphysical constructs with physical means. We can prove it by means of experience and teaching, like how I help people to perceive auras. I notice that people who are living in their heads can not learn it, which means that a lot of scientists and almost all skeptics will never perceive this reality of auras, nor acknowledge it. It is sad, and I don't know how to change that.

[Spektralscavenger]

I agree that this is more a metaphysical matter, the morphological field does not need to be physical to be real.

BUT, I çan perceive auras in different ways, and some friends of my can. I can even teach other people to do it. So something is really there.
In my research I have found that auras are producing CHI, (or Prana). And these can affect the physical world in any way possible. That means that auras and CHI are metaphysical constructs.

And we can not prove metaphysical constructs with physical means. We can prove it by means of experience and teaching, like how I help people to perceive auras. I notice that people who are living in their heads can not learn it, which means that a lot of scientists and almost all skeptics will never perceive this reality of auras, nor acknowledge it. It is sad, and I don't know how to change that.

If the fields can affect the physical world they are not metaphysical at all, they are very physical. Not everyone has the same amount nor quality of vital force. Generally speaking, healthy bodies have great amounts of "ki" and harmonized; weak or unhealthy bodies have very little ki and/or chaotic patterns. In Chinese medicine break blockages of chi flow_ so we can "suck" unlimited amounts of energy from the environment_ is the key of health.

[Zyxzevn]

I found this interesting research on chi and physics:
http://paradigm.zxq.net/yanxin/

[Spektralscavenger]

http://www.darkplasmatheory.blogspot.com.es/