Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by bboyer » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:18 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:
[As an aside - do any of you guys know where I can find maps of the globe without the sea on them? That is, where one can see the topography of the Earth's surface]
Various globes to click on here

Seafloor Topography
http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

Main topo page below, seems to have various plug-ins for Google Earth and whatnot. If you scroll down a bit it has an interactive topo map.

Satellite Geodesy
Scripps Institute of Oceanography, Univ. of Calif. San Diego
http://topex.ucsd.edu/WWW_html/mar_topo.html

Another interactive global map, clickable regions for 2' resolution
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/~small/GDEM.html

One more
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/2minrelief.html
There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence within our mind. It is the supreme mystery beyond thought. Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that and not rest on anything else. [---][/---] Maitri Upanishad

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by allynh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:21 pm

Kapriel wrote: Only have a sec, but had a question-

The supposed cracking points (between supposed plates) are the oceanic rifts aren't they? From what I can tell, first the continental plates crack, second the continents supposedly slide away from that cracking spot, and third those spots are then supposed to keep expanding, along the extact same place. Isn't that correct? I don't really know for sure, my knowledge of the subject is small right now, but anyhow...here's my question: if the continents slip away from the spot they cracked from, wouldn't the continual cracking always be along the oceanic rifts? In that case, we shouldn't see mountain building, earthquake activity, or volcanic activity anywhere along the continental coasts (example: the Andes).
But we do.

Ideas?
I went ahead and answered your question in the Are the planets growing? thread. That pops it back into view, so we can deal with Growing Earth Theory and Expanding Earth Theory without driving starbiter insane.

That's the only flaw of the Forum, great threads tend to vanish once the people think they have resolved things as best they can, and people miss the good stuff.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by allynh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:47 pm

Grey Cloud wrote: I meant the topography of the areas under the seas.
Oh! When you said you wanted to see the "Earth's surface" I thought land.

The closest sea floor views are at:

Bathymetry, Topography & Relief
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/bathymetry/relief.html

Marine Geology & Geophysics
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/2minrelief.html
seafloor.jpg
The depths are by color code rather than numbers.
legend.jpg
I made the color index from the PDF from this page.

SURFACE OF THE EARTH ICOSAHEDRON GLOBE
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/fliers/04mgg02.html

This page has a number of links to useful images.

Marine Geology and Geophysics
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/image/images.html

See if that helps. Remember, NOAA is your friend.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Kapriel » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:32 pm

Nice topo links, all.
Anyone know of any maps that include both ridge height as well as trough depth? I'd like to see how rises and dips measure up. Most topo maps include ridge-heights only.
Doubt is not proof.


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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:26 am

Thanks for all the links guys. Should keep me out of mischief for a while.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:38 am

Hi Starbiter,
Hello Grey Cloud: I've been reading/skimming WiC furiously since your message. I've found mountains melting like wax, appearing from nowhere, but not actually flying. On the other hand there is "blown to powder in the sky and annihilated",
and "and the wind throws up also into the sky the mountains which encircle the earth.... they are ground to powder and destroyed. [Sort of flying, but not matching]
The cosmic wind blows and destroys "a hundred thousand times ten million worlds". [i think that's a lot]
I'll keep looking for more.
I've no problem with melting like wax and appearing from nowhere (nor presumably disappearing to somewhere). It's the actual original sources I'm interested in, i.e. what is Verycostly quoting from.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by starbiter » Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:24 am

Hello Grey Cloud: The quotes i gave have footnotes. He attributes them to Warren, "World Cycles," Buddhism Page 328

I assume you possess, or have access to this book. Did Dr. Velikovsky lie, or manipulate the words?

How many predictions have his critics offered? How many successfully? While he was alive there were unending successful criticisms. When Dave Talbott gave V a chance to rebut through Pensee he destroyed the critics. I've noticed his critics perform much better since his death. If he was able to defend himself things might be different, or not.


I asked someone who has looked into these ideas for the prediction story. The response follows.

Me Are the confirmed predictions of Vellie just a matter of cleverness?
answer His best predictions were based on his high level model, not the details. For example, he was right that E&M played an important part in the SS, that the planets were not all formed in their present orbits and that Earth had had numerous catastrophes. Predictions based on that were generally correct. Many of his detailed predictions were based on an assumed chronology that was not supported by later data. Secondary predictions from these details were wrong.


me again I don't claim infallibility for Dr. V. There are translation problems, new information not available while he was alive. Chronology problems. These don't affect my work. I'm focused on one event from the past. A time of dust, sand, gravel, rocks, boulders the size of trees, wind, flood, and fire pouring from the sky. This seems to have been world wide. If true there would be consequences. The rest of Dr. Velikovsky is a distraction from what i'm looking into. I'm sure you folks will sort it out to no ones satisfaction. Good luck. I'm going for a walk in the snow covered Majestic Catalinas.



Thanks for being involved, michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

www.EU-geology.com

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:03 pm

Hi Starbiter,
Thanks for the source.
I assume you possess, or have access to this book. Did Dr. Velikovsky lie, or manipulate the words?
I read Velikovsky way back in the seventies. He didn't have the same effect on me that he seems to have had on many around here. I'm fairly sure that I read The Sea Peoples and I'm slightly less sure that I read at least one other of his books. I'm not accusing V of lying or manipulation - it's just that I always check out sources. If nothing else they can provide material for further reading/investigation, as is the case here.
Henry Clarke Warren - § 69. WORLD-CYCLES.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits069.htm
Cup of coffee and a read I think. :)
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:05 pm

Hi Starbiter,
Didn't take long to read.
I haven't got Velikovsky's book so I can't be sure but it looks to me like a bit of creative quoting is going on here. Obvious point is that the topic is World Cycles not one-off, random events.
The Buddhist text is also referring to three different types of cataclysm – by fire, water and wind and these are separated by 100,000 years.

Wind:
“Instead of the second sun, there arises a wind to destroy the world-cycle. And first it raises a fine dust, and then coarse dust, and then fine sand, and then coarse sand, and then grit, stones, etc., up to boulders as large as the peak of a pagoda, and mighty trees on the hill-tops. These mount from the earth to the zenith, and do not fall again, but are there blown to powder and annihilated. And then by degrees the wind arises from underneath the earth, and turns the ground upside down, and throws it into the sky, and areas of one hundred leagues in extent, two hundred, three hundred, five hundred leagues in extent, crack, and are thrown upwards by the force of the wind, and are blown to powder in the sky and annihilated. And the wind throws up also into the sky the mountains which encircle the earth, and Mount Sineru. These meet together, and are ground to powder and destroyed.
Thus are destroyed all the mansions on earth, and in the skies, also the six heavens of sensual desire, and a hundred thousand times ten million worlds. Worlds clash with worlds, Himalaya Mountains with Himalaya Mountains, and Mount Sinerus with Mount Sinerus, until they have ground each other to powder and have perished. From the earth upward does the wind prevail, until it has embraced all the heavens to which access is given by the third trance. Having there destroyed three of the Brahma-heavens, it comes to a stop at the Heaven of the Richly Rewarded Gods. When it has thus destroyed everything, it perishes. And the upper regions of space become one with those below, and wholly dark. All this is as described above. But now it is the Heaven of the Completely Lustrous Gods which first appears, and beings leave the Heaven of the Richly Rewarded Gods, and are reborn in the Heaven of the Completely Lustrous Gods, or in some lower heaven.
Now from the cycle-destroying great cloud to the termination of the cycle-destroying wind is one immensity; from the termination of the wind to the salutary great cloud is the second immensity; from the salutary great cloud to the appearing of the sun and moon is the third immensity; and from the appearing of the sun and moon to the cycle-destroying great cloud is the fourth immensity. These four immensities form one great world-cycle.”
The Fire and Water passages follow pretty much the same formula.
Personally I don't see much evidence of anything here except that the Buddhists, like pretty much everyone else, subscribe to the idea of a cyclical and hierarchical cosmos.
Like I said it's been a long time since I read Velikovsky but I don't suppose that he had much to say about the Completely Lustrous Gods or the Brahma-Heavens. Still, so long as one can cherry-pick some tasty morsel to bolster one's theory, who cares about context. Like they say in journalism: 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story'.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by starbiter » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:07 pm

Hello Grey Cloud: Thanks for the link. It's wonderful to read in one piece.

Henry Clarke Warren - § 69. WORLD-CYCLES.



This is the order of events in a world-cycle when it perishes by water.

When a world-cycle is destroyed by wind, it perishes in the manner above described, where it was said, "There arises in the beginning a cycle-destroying great cloud." But there are the following points of difference:--Instead of the second sun, there arises a wind to destroy the world-cycle. And first it raises a fine dust, and then coarse dust, and then fine sand, and then coarse sand, and then grit, stones, etc., up to boulders as large as the peak of a pagoda, and mighty trees on the hill-tops. These mount from the earth to the zenith, and do not fall again, but are there blown to powder and annihilated. And then by degrees the wind arises from underneath the earth, and turns the ground upside down, and throws it into the sky, and areas of one hundred leagues in extent, two hundred, three hundred, five hundred leagues in extent, crack, and are thrown upwards by the force of the wind, and are blown to powder in the sky and annihilated. And the wind throws up also into the sky the mountains which encircle the earth, and Mount Sineru. These meet together, and are ground to powder and destroyed.

Thus are destroyed all the mansions on earth, and in the skies, also the six heavens of sensual desire, and a hundred thousand times ten million worlds. Worlds clash with worlds, Himalaya Mountains with Himalaya Mountains, and Mount Sinerus with Mount Sinerus, until they have ground each other to powder and have perished. From the earth

p. 329 [Vis.xiii

upward does the wind prevail, until it has embraced all the heavens to which access is given by the third trance. Having there destroyed three of the Brahma-heavens, it comes to a stop at the Heaven of the Richly Rewarded Gods. When it has thus destroyed everything, it perishes. And the upper regions of space become one with those below, and wholly dark. All this is as described above. But now it is the Heaven of the Completely Lustrous Gods which first appears, and beings leave the Heaven of the Richly Rewarded Gods, and are reborn in the Heaven of the Completely Lustrous Gods, or in some lower heaven.

Now from the cycle-destroying great cloud to the termination of the cycle-destroying wind is one immensity; from the termination of the wind to the salutary great cloud is the second immensity; from the salutary great cloud to the appearing of the sun and moon is the third immensity; and from the appearing of the sun and moon to the cycle-destroying great cloud is the fourth immensity. These four immensities form one great world-cycle.

This is the order of events in a world-cycle when it perishes by wind.



During the events described the visibility was reduced. There was very little TV coverage. The description above would be logical with a sky full of sand and boulders.

Anything causing a disturbance in the blowing sand would become a dune. Mountains would be covered in the process. They would disappear and be replaced by huge new mountains.

I asked David Talbott to comment on the period of wind and sand. My question and his comments follow.

Michael ........ For my business the dates are of no consequence. Just the eyewitness accounts. Do you agree with the accounts, and something like the Plague of Darkness being historical?
michael

David ......... Michael, my own conclusion is that all (or virtually all) of the actors in the myths were originally celestial gods. The theater for the stories was the sky. But mythic interpretations of events, including the fates of the gods, were no doubt influenced directly by things occurring on earth. Rocks falling on earth clearly influenced the interpretation of cosmic battles as gods hurling stones at each other. Same for darkness, dust, rains of fire and water and other components of the stories.

DaveDavid Talbott

Thanks Dave, michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:52 pm

Hi Starbiter,
Bear in mind that these Buddhist time-scales are ridiculously long and don't, as far as I can see, help your duning theory in any way.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by starbiter » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:09 pm

Hello Grey Cloud: Where would you date the Buddhist stuff? I'm date agnostic, pretty much.

Hope you have a chance to read WiC. I found the chronology material of Velikovsky very difficult. I looked forward to Ages in Chaos, only to be disappointed. The names and dates, along with the lack of flow were too much for me. Same with Peoples of the Sea, and Ramses II and His Time. Same problem with reading Dwardu. I was told by three people i needed to skim. I don't skim. I go back, and read it again. I'll try Dwardu again. Trusted friends think i should. WiC is a breeze.

michael
I Ching #49 The Image
Fire in the lake: the image of REVOLUTION
Thus the superior man
Sets the calender in order
And makes the seasons clear

www.EU-geology.com

http://www.michaelsteinbacher.com

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by nick c » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:39 pm

Grey Cloud,
This is a thread dealing with Michael's alternative theory of mountain building that is of possible importance to an understanding of how some of the geology of the Earth came to be, and is relevant to the EDM processes that have been described as part of the EU. We don't want to stray to far off topic by getting into debates on mythology, as that does not belong in this particular thread and forum. I would propose that if you want to explore this line further, you could revive the [url2=http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... &start=330]Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe[/url2]? thread.

Michael,
I can see why you could cite this as support for your theory, especially when taken in conjunction with similar testimony from other cultures around the world. It is not a misuse of a source by V, although it is certainly difficult to accept it at face value when viewed from our uniformitarian experience and bias. One could accept the conventional explanation that sees it as a poetical or metaphorical rendering not a literal statement, but I no longer subscribe to that view, only because this has elements in common with numerous stories from the around the world. Specific details, without corroboration from another source(s) are of little value, as they have the trappings of local add ons. This is not a tale of a localized tornado or hurricane. Bottom line, it is describing a wind the likes of which we have never experienced.
Instead of the second sun, there arises a wind to destroy the world-cycle. And first it raises a fine dust, and then coarse dust, and then fine sand, and then coarse sand, and then grit, stones, etc., up to boulders as large as the peak of a pagoda, and mighty trees on the hill-tops. These mount from the earth to the zenith, and do not fall again, but are there blown to powder and annihilated. And then by degrees the wind arises from underneath the earth, and turns the ground upside down, and throws it into the sky, and areas of one hundred leagues in extent, two hundred, three hundred, five hundred leagues in extent, crack, and are thrown upwards by the force of the wind, and are blown to powder in the sky and annihilated. And the wind throws up also into the sky the mountains which encircle the earth, and Mount Sineru. These meet together, and are ground to powder and destroyed.
I find the description of different Suns very interesting. The details about cycles of 100,000 years or whatever are irrelevant if taken by themselves, that is unless there is some sort of confirmation of those time scales from other sources. The important thing is that the concept of world ages governed by different Suns ending in global catastrophes exists all around the world, that quote is but one example of this motif. (Note that the description of the events is very literal and real, having an eyewitness quality, well that is my opinion.) V has stated that these different Suns represent the disruptions in the Earth's orbit and/or inclination to the ecliptic, that is to the ancient viewer on Earth the Sun would appear to travel a different course through the celestial sphere, a la the myth of Phaethon. A change in the course of the Sun inevitably resulted in widespread destruction on Earth. Flood, fire, wind, earthquake, thunderbolt...pick your poison. The question is why would the ancients report this? How would they even connect the disruption of the Earth's motions with worldwide destruction and accurately describe what would happen, if they lived in a world where everything was governed by only the forces and conditions we see in action today?

As you have stated, the nature of the agent of destruction and the chronology are irrelevant to processes being described. The only requirements are that there were catastrophes of at least a continental (if not global) scale caused by an extraterrestrial agent (presumably of planetary dimensions judging from the magnitude of forces involved) in a recent (within the memory of mankind) timeframe.

Nick

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Re: Are Mountains the Result of a Duning Process?

Post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:18 pm

Hi Nick,
I'm well aware of the what this thread is about and have no intention of of introducing mythology.
My input, in my last few posts, was a result of quotes from Velikovsky used by Starbiter. These turned out, at one remove, to derive from a Buddhist text. As per the modus operandi of Velokovsky and his ilk, the quoted passages, upon closer examination, don't really do what it says on the tin.

Nobody here is denying catastrophe(s) so the most of the rest of your post is redundant. The Buddha was c. C5th BCE so to claim that these descriptions have an eye-witness quality is stretching things a bit. Unless of course one counts information gleaned from a previous existence which is what the Buddhist text is saying.

The constant refrain that these events are described by various cultures around the globe gets us nowhere. Starbiter is at least trying to go one step further by examing the formation of mountains in light of some of these references from around the world. Whether he is right or wrong I'll let the guys who know their geology work at.

Personally I feel that the agent and chronology of these events are highly important. The agent is important as one cannot correctly explain an effect without knowing the cause. For instance, one may see some geological feature as the result of cataclysm when in fact it is the result of a regular vulcanism or whatever. Furthermore, it may also help in knowing when the next one is due. Similarly, the chronology is important because it may help in knowing when the next one is imminent. The chronology may also help in determining whether the events of any given theory could actually take place within that time-frame.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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