Is the Electric Universe a Fractal Too? Signs Point to Yes!

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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Is the Electric Universe a Fractal Too? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by MGmirkin » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:02 am

A recent article from New Scientist hints that the universe may be fractal in distribution!

(Galaxy Map Hints at Fractal Universe)
http://digg.com/space/Galaxy_Map_Hints_ ... l_Universe
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14200
Is the matter in the universe arranged in a fractal pattern? A new study of nearly a million galaxies suggests it is – though there are no well-accepted theories to explain why that would be so.
That'll just be their little secret. I beg to differ.

Granted, I'd give them the "well-accepted" gibe, as EU / PC has been largely ignored. But it nonetheless exists and offers an alternative to dark matter, dark energy and other kludges of current theory. It also has no problem with the universe being a big ol' fractal, so far as I know.
A lot is at stake, and the matter distribution has become a source of impassioned debate between those who say the distribution is smooth and homogeneous and those who say it is hierarchically structured and clumpy, like a fractal.
Agreed!
According to their latest paper, which has been submitted to Nature Physics, Sylos Labini and Pietronero, along with physicists Nikolay Vasilyev and Yurij Baryshev of St Petersburg State University in Russia, argue that the new data shows that the galaxies exhibit an explicitly fractal pattern up to a scale of about 100 million light years.
So, what does that mean then?
Many cosmologists find fault with their analysis, largely because a fractal matter distribution out to such huge scales undermines the standard model of cosmology.
Let me know when the laughter stops!

Seriously this should be hilarious to anyone who values science. At all. This clearly shows the absolute bias infiltrating science these days. It tantamount to saying "I disbelieve the data on the basis that it's devastating to my hypothesis!" Or rather, "if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" ~Albert Einstein.

Einstein set a horrible precedent with that quote. It's time to return to the science of Isaac Newton and Karl Popper.
What's more, the assumption that the distribution is homogeneous has allowed cosmologists to model the universe fairly simply using Einstein's theory of general relativity – which relates the shape of space to the distribution of matter.

Modelling a fractal universe with general relativity is possible in theory, but in reality it would be devilishly complicated. That would leave cosmologists without a working model, like acrobats without a net.
Gasp! They might have to start using Maxwell's Equations and EM field theory!
What's at stake if the universe is indeed a fractal on the largest scales? Besides a radical rethink of the laws and history of the cosmos?
Who cares about their bet over wine when the fate of the universe hangs in the balance??

Keep in mind the prior article noting that galaxies form like beads on a string (along plasma filaments).

(Galaxies Formed Along Filaments Like Beads on a string!)
http://digg.com/space/Galaxies_formed_a ... n_a_string
http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=4215

Keep in mind also that such was more-or-less expected, based upon plasma processes independently modeled on supercomputers by Los Alamos plasma physicist Anthony Peratt:

Evolution of the Plasma Universe: I. Double Radio Galaxies, Quasars, and Extragalactic Jets

Evolution of the Plasma Universe: II. The Formation of Systems of Galaxies

Of course, the fractal nature of of the universe should be apparent IF it's an electric universe. Electricity / plasma processes are scalable over many orders of magnitude and appear to be fractally self-similar.

(What are Lichtenberg Figures, and how do we create them?)
http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames ... bergs.html

(A sequence of zooms showing the self-similarity of Lichtenberg figures...)
http://www.capturedlightning.com/photos ... lfsim2.jpg

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by StevenO » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:10 am

The Gmirk wrote:Of course, the fractal nature of of the universe should be apparent IF it's an electric universe. Electricity / plasma processes are scalable over many orders of magnitude and appear to be fractally self-similar.
I don't want to spoil the party, but where in EU theory will they find that the universe should necessarily show fractal behaviour??? I know you can create it in the laboratory, but the lab results are not supported by a theory that calculates the fractal patterns themselves, right? So, I fail to see how this would make our cosmologists massively switch to EU.... :shock: :(
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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by junglelord » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:14 am

Indeed Steven I am of the opposite view, and that a EU involves much more then electricity. Holographic, fractal, entangled, coherent, charged, quantum behaviour is my view at present of the EU.
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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by MGmirkin » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:18 am

Since I have not read every scrap ever written by Thornhill, Scott, Alfven, Birkeland, Juergens, etc. I don't know for sure whether they have said explicitly that fractal-ness / self-similarity should be seen in the universe (they may or may not have). However, plasma scaling operates over many orders of magnitude and may well [or probably does] lead to self-similarity over those orders of magnitude.

Much as discharges in the lab show self-similarity, it seems logical that the scaling laws would make for self-similarity at the larger scales too. That the gist of what I was getting at. The Big Bang seems to "break" if fractal distributions are found at large scales. Plasma scaling appears to admit self-similar fractal-ness as a possibility (and in my opinion may well logically expect it; again, I don't know whether Thornhill, Scott et al have specifically predicted it or not, so if nothing else it's just an observation from me for now).

While not specifically mentioning "fractals," Alfvén did speak of "Hierarchical Cosmology"

(On Hierarchical Cosmology)
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi- ... e=PDF_HIGH

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by junglelord » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:30 am

Very good point. Plasma, the first state of matter, is a fractal expression of the very small expressed as the very large. Spiral Galaxy forms are the most evolved state. That is a scalar, standing wave, (quantum coherent I think due to longitudinal transmission being entangled). It is the primary archetype. Therefore this form holds the secret to the universe. Its that simple and that profound.

Does it not strike anyone as very important that Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter (Theta/Z Pinch) had a Spiral Coil?
:?
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by Plasmatic » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:10 am

I see any tendancy in plasma towards fractaling as part of the electrodynamic identity of plasma . The elctrodynamic nature seen in every thing. Thats why I suspect that "aether" is defining plasma electrodynamics and properties on a previously unknown scale. This would fit with my comment about the areas in between objects as dark mode plasma . In some way analagous to double layers and areas in between them. [not yet sold on this ]......"in the beginning was the plasma" Alfven
although I reject the "beginning" part the irony stands.
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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:40 am

I was mistaken. Fractal structure HAS been registered as a prediction by Thornhill et al.

Happy to lay that one to rest.
Thornhill & Talbott wrote:With firsthand experience of electrical phenomena, plasma cosmologists can offer concrete and testable models addressing the puzzles and contradictions of popular theories. They know that the magnetic fields in deep space trace macrocosmic electric currents like a cosmic wiring diagram. And they understand that plasma phenomena are scalable up to intergalactic dimensions: under similar conditions, what occurs in the laboratory can be seen in space.
(Wallace Thornhill and David Talbott, The Electric Universe, 2007, pp. 26-27)
Thornhill & Talbott wrote:As plasma cosmologists have noted, the universe exhibits fractal patterns: the patterns repeat at different scales from small to large. The scalability of plasma phenomena thus means that a fractal universe is a prediction of plasma cosmology while it is inimical to the Big Bang model.40
(Wallace Thornhill and David Talbott, The Electric Universe, 2007, pp. 27)
Thornhill & Talbott wrote:[40] A fractal distribution implies areas empty of matter—voids between galaxies and clusters—will appear at ever larger scales. Plasma cosmology, unlike the Big Bang, has unlimited time to form these structures. See A. Gefter, “Don’t mention the F word,” New Scientist, 10 March 2007, pp.30-33. “Einstein’s equations would be thrown out first, followed by the Big Bang and expansion of the universe.”
(Wallace Thornhill and David Talbott, The Electric Universe, 2007, pp. 27)
It does make the article a bit pithier, does it not?

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:02 am

Excellent article Michael. I shall be emailing the link to friends. I thought you were a bit generous when you wrote about them having to invent new physics every three press releases - I'd have said 'every other'. ;)
Great article.
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and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
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but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by junglelord » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:46 am

Glad we are all on the same page, no matter how we got here.
;)

I thought that it was fractal and holographic after my studies in biophysics, that was before I knew it was EU.
I also think it is entangled. These thoughts come from other studies, but they relate to EU so I just figure it must be so. Nice to see I am actually coming to ideas that are ideas of Wal.
Last edited by junglelord on Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by StefanR » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:49 am

Maybe I'm reading the wrong stuff :geek: ,and yes I know one should not be too stuck up on words, but would it be "like a fractal" or have the "likeness of a fractal"? :?
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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by junglelord » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:51 am

"properties of a fractal" would be the best description I think.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by folaht » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:32 pm

Errrmmmm....

Wouldn't a fractal universe also imply that elementary particles do not exist or exist on every level?
I don't see a Periodic Table of the Stars.

There are about 6 options of how space could be like in the universe I could think of and these are:
  1. finite and bounded
    The universe is a plasmalamp, if you travel far enough you'll bump against the edge and get a nasty headache.
  2. finite and unbounded
    The universe is a plasmalamp without edges, travel far enough you're back where you started.
  3. infinite and bounded
    The universe is a plasmalamp shaped like an inifinitely long neon-tube, depending on which direction you'll travel, go far enough and you'll bump against the edge and still get a nasty headache
  4. infinite and unbounded
    The universe is a plasmalamp without edges, travel far enough and you'll end up in an episode of sliders.
  5. half-fractal
    Everytime you zoom out on the structure of the universe, you get to see it's only a tiny part of a bigger structure, ad inifinitum.
  6. fractal
    Same but also for zooming in ad inifinitum.
Option 3 is possible, makes no sense and the Millennium Simulation does not support edges as of yet or ever.
Option 6 has in my view been falsified by the discovery of elementary particles.
Option 1 used to be the preferred model, but has been abandoned since the universe turned out to much bigger than previously thought.
Option 2 is right now the most popular in the big bang model.

As of now the Millennium Simulation seems to be pointing to option 4, with 5 and 2 as runner-ups.

So there is it is..
not fractal, but infinite and unbounded.
Last edited by folaht on Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Since 1 % 1, 1 * 1 and 1 - 1 do not add up, we must conclude that 1 + 1 is 3.

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:37 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Excellent article Michael. I shall be emailing the link to friends. I thought you were a bit generous when you wrote about them having to invent new physics every three press releases - I'd have said 'every other'. ;)
Great article.
Strangely enough, I did actively try to hold my tongue on that one... "Every other" sounded a bit too harsh. I mean that works out (taking into account the literalist in me) 50%+ of the press releases. And that seemed a bit high. But I see your point.

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:42 pm

StefanR wrote:Maybe I'm reading the wrong stuff :geek: ,and yes I know one should not be too stuck up on words, but would it be "like a fractal" or have the "likeness of a fractal"? :?
Referring to the title, or something else? I've changed the thread title slightly. I was using fractal as an adjective "Is the Electric Universe Fractal?" Perhaps it might have been clearer (if it fit in the title box) "Is the Electric Universe Fractal in Character?" I've opted for a simpler "Is the Electric Universe a Fractal, Too? ..." Using fractal more properly as a noun. ;)

[/Semantics] :D

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Re: Is the Electric Universe Fractal? Signs Point to Yes!

Unread post by MGmirkin » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:46 pm

_sluimers_ wrote:There are about 6 options of how the universe I could think of and these are:

[*]infinite and bounded
The universe is a plasmalamp shaped like an inifinitely long neon-tube, depending on which direction you'll travel, go far enough and you'll bump against the edge and still get a nasty headache
Isn't that one contradictory? How can a system be both infinite and bounded.

If there's a boundary, it's not infinite. It's, well, bounded. There is an "end." It stops and doesn't go on forever.

Or is there some way in which something infinite can be bounded but still infinite. Seems like a violation of infinity to me, to put a limit on it. Just my 2c.

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