Magnetic field in galaxy

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Locked
Biggins
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:28 am
Location: Germany

Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by Biggins » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:26 am

A spiral galaxy will rotate as a homopolar motor (Faraday disc). This leads to the following prerequisites:
a. current flowing through the galactic arms - current flowing in the same direction in all arms (i.e. current flowing outwards)
b. matter within the galaxy represents the rotating disk
c. magnetic field orthogonal to the galactic disk (i.e. the magnetic field is in the direction out of the disk)

In the attached image, we see the orientation of polarisation from a galaxy. This is interpreted as the magnetic field around a galaxy.
magnetic field.JPG


Is this what is expected by EU theory. My understanding is that the polarisation seen is caused by the induced polarisation of particle emissions due to the current flow through the arms. But what about the effects of polarisation of particle emission due to the magnetic field required for the homopolar motor? Am I missing something?

User avatar
nick c
Site Admin
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:12 pm
Location: connecticut

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by nick c » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:22 am

hello Biggins,
a. current flowing through the galactic arms - current flowing in the same direction in all arms (i.e. current flowing outwards)
If I am not mistaken the model proposed by Alfven,
as shown in Don Scott's The Electric Sky, and on his website here:
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/galaxies.htm
has the current flowing into the spiral arms, not outwards as you state (unless I misunderstood what you wrote?) and out through the axis of the galaxy..
Alfvens homopolar galaxy model:
alfven1.jpg
alfven1.jpg (69.08 KiB) Viewed 11390 times
This diagram is a vertical cross section of a three dimensional figure. The horizontal line at the center of the diagram is actually a circular disk lying in the horizontal plane. It is this disk, when viewed not from the edge as it is here, but more face on, that is the familiar spiral shape picture of a galaxy that we are used to seeing. The parallel vertical lines coming out from the center of the galaxy (along its axis of rotation) represent a strong electrical current in a plasma that sometimes is visible as a "jet".
The two pairs of letters - DL - in the sketch are Double Layers within the jet plasma. Recall that DLs contain strong E-fields and are the source of radio frequency emissions. The two amorphous shapes at the left of the diagram show the resulting typical "double radio source" that is observed in many galaxies. These are due to the presence of DLs. In some galaxies the jet plasma is in the dark current mode; in others it is clearly visible.
This is Centaurus A. The jet is clearly visible in this image. Halton Arp's contention that quasars are emitted from the centers of Seyfert galaxies along their 'secondary axes' (axes of rotation) is supported by these pictures. Recall that DLs are also the locations of strong electromagnetic z-pinches which can compress dispersed material into denser objects.

The general shape of a rotating disk carrying electrical currents in the shape shown by Alfven defines what is called the homopolar motor - generator. Note that the horizontal disk (the arms of the galaxy) is where the current, I, is least spread out - the current density is greatest. This is where Population I stars are usually found.
In many galaxies the jet structure cannot be seen in visible light. So until the development of infrared and x-ray orbiting satellite telescopes, most of these features remained undiscovered. There are now many images of galaxies that show the Alfven structure.


As to the polarization question, I don't have an answer, other than (at the risk of being overly simplistic), the magnetic fields of the galaxy are created by the electric currents and the polarization would be dependent on the orientation of the electric field.

Nick

Biggins
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:28 am
Location: Germany

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by Biggins » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:45 am

Quite correct, the current flows inwards (and electrons flow outwards).

I suppose my question was rather :
- Is the polarisation due to the electric field or the magnetic field (as suggested by those collecting the data). And if it is the magnetic field that causes the polarisation
- If it is magnetic fields that create the polarisation, is not the homopolar motor dependent on a magnetic field perpendicular to the face of the galaxy, and this is not what we see, or?
- Is the pattern we see correct for the EU

Cheers

jjohnson
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by jjohnson » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:57 am

Here's a scoshi bit of background that you might find interesting. The article from which this magnetic mapping was taken was from work by Bryan Gaensler, a very smart young radio astronomer at Sydney University in Oz.

'Jarvamumdo' and I happened to read it and e-mail the author the same week, recently, and he took time to respond to us simultaneously. He wrote:
…to answer your basic postulate, there is no doubt that cosmic magnetic fields are caused by electrical currents. That is a given, as required by Maxwell's Equations. Asking "where do these magnetic fields come from?" and "where do these electrical currents come from?" are the same question.

So to phrase the problem in terms of currents, the problem is that we don't know what keeps the currents flowing for billions of years. Why don't they fade away? Why do they flow in such an organised way? The simple response would be that interstellar gas is highly conducting, and so (like a superconductor), currents can just keep flowing forever. However, what has only recently becoming fully understood (and perhaps Perratt, being a plasma physicist, might not have been aware of this) is that interstellar gas is extremely turbulent. Energy and gas-flows thus cascade down to smaller scales and are dissipated as heat, and any current will fizzle out comparatively rapidly. This is likely quite a different situation from the solar system or the laboratory.

So the mystery remains. What keeps the current going for so long? The likely explanation is a dynamo, in which differential rotation and helical turbulence combine to amplify and organise currents (or magnetic fields, if you prefer) over long time scales. But a dynamo can only ever amplify an existing weak current or field. So the question remains: where did the first currents come from? We of course have ideas and theories about this, but we don't know which one of these ideas is correct. This is a question that I and my colleagues hope to address in the coming years.
Notice that Bryan did not hesitate to use electrical currents, and assigned them as being the source of the magnetic fields he is mapping. How surprisingly refreshing is that from someone in the midst of mainstream astronomy?

Of course, it is axiomatic in mainstream cosmology to say that dynamos are the source of electric and magnetic fields in space, whereas the Electric Model prefers to think about the huge current flows (not huge in terms of charge density, but huge in cross section and therefore amperage, or total current flow). There may be dynamos inside a star or planets for all I know (not that much!) but getting these dynamos to effect electrodynamic events hundred to hundreds of thousands of parsecs away seems a little... dubious in my mind. Whereas, if the flow of current through interstellar and intergalactic space continuous over long distances due to the low resistivity of plasma, then magnetic fields of very large morphology are set up, and the current interactions with these fields is a continuous feedback loop, with changes in one creating changes in the other.

I am not sure what the evidence is that leads to Gaensler's saying that the interstellar medium is turbulent. I found a paper that says that there is enough photon energy to ionize the interstellar medium within 50 million parsecs of a galaxy, so the IM and IGM are clearly enough a thin ionized gas. As it is in motion through - as well as creates its own - magnetic and electric fields, it is an electrical current flow, which breaks down into filamentary structures (Birkeland current filaments) as shown by Alfven and Peratt.

As these currents are highly aligned with their magnetic fields, there is little random or Browning or "thermal" motion and interaction among the widely distributed charged particles, so although they may be moving relatively fast, with a high kinetic energy, thinking in terms of gas dynamics (including turbulence) thermal dissipation as a result seems to me to be unlikely to slow or stop the current flows in instances where the filaments have been connected between stars, or between galaxies. Where they have not connected to other bodies, such as in the case of jets and counter-jets in active galactic nuclei, planetary nebulas, etc, they appear to stay collimated and organized over long distances, often with plumes appearing in their radio signatures out at the end of their flow. Those may be turbulent as they are not fully interconnected with another element in a circuit. Just conjecturing, here.

Gaensler hit on a key question, however, which neither EU nor mainstream cosmology has a good answer for: ab initio, what force is/was able to start these electrodynamic currents and fields, and what keeps them going for who knows how long?

Or are we in a conservative universe with a fixed but large total momentum, mass and energy value which manages to recycle endlessly, sort of a gyroscope on frictionless bearings, which never heats up or runs down? It's all good conjecture for short-lived, carbon-based life forms.

User avatar
solrey
Posts: 631
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by solrey » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:02 pm

I think it fits EU theory. It seems to replicate the heliospheric current sheet on a large scale.

Notice Alfvens homopolar galaxy diagram.

Image

Compare to:
MHD simulation of the three-dimensional structure of the heliospheric current sheet

Image

Galaxy polarization image

Image
“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla

User avatar
Jarvamundo
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:26 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by Jarvamundo » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:14 am

I am not sure what the evidence is that leads to Gaensler's saying that the interstellar medium is turbulent. I found a paper that says that there is enough photon energy to ionize the interstellar medium within 50 million parsecs of a galaxy, so the IM and IGM are clearly enough a thin ionized gas. As it is in motion through - as well as creates its own - magnetic and electric fields, it is an electrical current flow, which breaks down into filamentary structures (Birkeland current filaments) as shown by Alfven and Peratt.
JJ - I'm still wondering on Gaenslers method for determining this "turbulence", I would expect it's from faraday rotation maps. I haven't read Alfven's books/detail yet... i'm just wondering what Alfven means when he talks about "non maxwellian behaviour", i kind of have in the back of my head that Bryan might be seeing something more specific to Plasma behavior, when he talks of turbulence, even along the lines of diocotron instability etc, which he may not be exposed to in the field... as he mentioned he hadn't heard of Peratt.

We need to remember these radio astronomers, although well versed in EM, are not necessarily plasma cosmo aware.

Which begs the question, do all plasma physicists know of Alfven / Peratt? I dunno i'm not in that IEEE field? Are these guys big names in their own general field? I spose IEEE's new plasma cosmo publications will help here.

Gaensler has quite a few radio interviews online, i like his scientific style, definitely appreciate the time he took to enthusiastically reply to us both. He is indeed looking forward to even bigger questions, look forward to his work.

FYI This is the article which we responded to: http://www.australasianscience.com.au/b ... ensler.pdf

After receiving his reply as jj mentioned, he is well aware of the "currents", maybe he's just being gentle, by not mentioning them LOUDLY, as he is operating in mainstream hence applies to the same research funding boards. (playin ball) ;)

- Is the polarisation due to the electric field or the magnetic field (as suggested by those collecting the data). And if it is the magnetic field that causes the polarisation
- If it is magnetic fields that create the polarisation, is not the homopolar motor dependent on a magnetic field perpendicular to the face of the galaxy, and this is not what we see, or?
- Is the pattern we see correct for the EU
FYI Biggins - The polarisation measure is Faraday Rotation
A magneto-optic effect, also known as the Faraday effect, in which the plane of polarization of an electromagnetic wave is rotated under the influence of a magnetic field parallel to the direction of propagation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_ef ... lar_medium
Some reading of this process might help you with the particulars of how it is measured, and what is measured, hope this helps you.

I've only recently come across these radio astronomy techniques, it'll be a big part of a quantitative model of EU and it's future. Linking plasma cosmo work with radio astronomy would seem a 'no brainer'... They are already EM guru's.

Best,
Alex

User avatar
FS3
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:44 pm
Location: Europe
Contact:

The Egg and the Chicken

Unread post by FS3 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:25 am

Nice correspondence, sofar...
jjohnson wrote:...Gaensler hit on a key question, however, which neither EU nor mainstream cosmology has a good answer for: ab initio, what force is/was able to start these electrodynamic currents and fields, and what keeps them going for who knows how long?....
Me thinks the answer to that "problem" could be much more simple than you might imagine. As matter in its original form comes in ions or electrons we do have the soup already there - and - we are literally swimming inmidst of it. The case of neutral atoms is much more rare than the electrically active state of ionized matter which comes in both polarities.

If you have now this galactic sea of positive and negative charge carriers they start to move, according to normal physics - so establishing lots of currents in space. Positive ions are looking out for electrons and vice versa.

Voila.

If you add the "spice" of knowing that this ionized matter tends to form Birkeland currents - here you go with the discovery of the "battery". It's everywhere! As it is inside the matter...

FS3

Biggins
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:28 am
Location: Germany

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by Biggins » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:32 am

Javamundo - thanks for the link! That's exactly what I was after

jjohnson
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by jjohnson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:44 am

Thanks for the link to Faraday rotation in Wiki and the good discussion, Alex. I agree that there is a qualitative difference between 'turbulence' in non-ionised gas flows and the many types of 'instabilities' which can occur in plasmas. I am not sure that Bryan has had time to read up on the track of books and papers from Birkeland to Falthammar and Alfven to Peratt and all the others who've contributed to the electrical view of the universe. It's a lot to absorb - I'm still trying, like most of us.

I think that electrically, despite local instabilities (which can be 'local' on a galactic scale, in my view) the conducting connective tissue is not very lossy,being plasma in state and therefore of low resistance. This results in efficient transmission of power which, when concentrated by EM forces at work, creates the stars and their organized groupings into galaxies, along with the smaller condensates from planets to dust. The power transmitted is very large, but the power density is low in the intergalactic scale, because the flows of charged particles are of such large diameter.

If EU conjecture is correct, all the stars in a galactic nexus are powered by their (electric) current environment, both the recirculating intra-galactic flows (see diagrams above from Alfven/Don Scott) and the large arriving/departing inter-galactic currents. Just looking at the radiated energy density from the billions of stars in a single galaxy, you can only imagine the wattage required to run this sucker. Currents light years in diameter are up to it, even though composed of a sparse soup of charges moving sedately along for millions and billions of years before arriving and getting pinched into much denser current flows which can and do light up in the glow and arc and occasionally the overstressed modes of action.

It's an exciting picture.

User avatar
Jarvamundo
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:26 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by Jarvamundo » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:19 pm

And you paint that picture very well JJ...

EM theory has always been fairly easy to pickup, even the maths in that faraday rotation example is simple enough to grasp the concept. Combining theory with "infront of your eyes" examples is always the best way to learn. Plasma Cosmo has the empirical advantage of being able to do this, from small scales to large... It reminds me of MIT's fantastic lectures from Prof. Walter Lewin.
This is how to learn. http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-02E ... /index.htm

jjohnson
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:24 am
Location: Thurston County WA

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by jjohnson » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:31 pm

It's time consuming but you're right - he's a superb teacher and these are really good lectures. Thanks for the link. I've bookmarked them and will watch them all the way through as time permits.

User avatar
Jarvamundo
Posts: 612
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:26 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Magnetic field in galaxy

Unread post by Jarvamundo » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:59 pm

Loved his one on super conductors.... runs through the lecture theory... then goes... right... 'lets play' cracks open some liquid nitrogen and makes the super conductor levitate as per theory and maths on the board behind.

Another one with eddy currents and magnetic breaking was great.... Uses a plate sliding in a field... shhrroomp stop... then uses a plate with slits sliding through a field... less of a slide...

Also reminds me of a lecturer i had who said... 'right... today i will show you a Farad... left a capacitor charging the whole lecture... ran through an hour of capacitance theory... then 'ohh yeah... that Farad'... CAAARAAACCCCK! students: "wow this guy aint f-n around"

Let me know if you find any gold in there (as per time constraints, i only dabble)...

Love the "get ya hands on it" approach that these guys take...
Us chimps can draw fire on a wall... but soon as you burn me with an ember, i wont forget it!
Image

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests