Sunspot lightning?

[Drethon]

Interesting: http://www.spaceweather.com/swpod2010/0 ... luns4ren17

[fzzzy]

Wow. That is amazingly cool.

[mharratsc]

Holy cats! That does look like lightning jumping through clouds, doesn't it?

Let's see 'em come up with an ad hoc explanation for why bolts of plasma an order of magnitude brighter and hotter than the surface of the Sun shoot from one sunspot to another, if all that is just "convective heat" from a thermonuclear interior?


Mike H.

[Anaconda]

I've reviewed conventional thinking on the Sun.

Many conventional thinkers (heliophysicists) acknowledge the electrical nature of the processes at the surface of the Sun and into the corona (Electric Double Layers, aka "magnetic reconnection"), but still cling to the conventional assumptions about the internal dynamics of the Sun (nuclear fusion).

Certainly, the image provided suggests lightning (electrical discharge) happening right at the surface of the Sun.

It seems that in a continuous progression, bits & pieces of disparate observations & measurements demonstrate the electrical nature of the sun's plasma environment extending out to the heliosheath.

The challenge for those that support an electrical view of our solar system and beyond is to synthesize all the outstanding observations & measurements into a coherent presentation (yes, that has been done), but the key is using the scientific evidence that is already accepted in mainstream circles (Electric Double Layers. aka "magnetic reconnection" and Birkeland currents) in such a way that is ilrefutable by conventional thinkers by THEIR OWN TERMS.

I am optimistic this will happen in the not too distant future as the contention that electric fields and electric currents are present in space plasma is no longer disputed by serious conventional thinkers.

At this point, the dogmatists are in a rearguard action to maintain that these electric fields and electric currents are limited and not significant to overall solar dynamics -- this dogmatic view is increasingly harder to maintain in the face of the evidence.

[mharratsc]

Yah, but like you said Ana- it's got to be put forth in "THEIR OWN TERMS". That's the rub!

Sadly (based upon my own review- and through no fault of the EU proponents), the exchanges between EU/PC proponents and Mainstreamists has become rather adversarial. We have electrical-physicist-types who (quite rightly) feel that the electrical/plasma descriptions have been around longer than the astronomical ones regarding cosmological electrical characteristics and thus are proper to use, but also we damn well know that no astronomer is going to stop what they're doing and start reading an electrical physics dictionary right away so that they will better understand what the plasma physicists are saying to them!

That being the case- what we need is a bit of diplomacy, I'm thinking. It needs to be put in their own vernacular, to bridge the chasm of disparate scientific fields, so that EU can be perceived as simply new ways of looking at things in terminology that they already understand, rather than a baffling bunch of science of which they don't seem to understand even the most simplest of terms of it.

Unfortunately, the Mainstreamists are going to need to have this spoon-fed to them. If their jobs are not on the line, they are not going to expend much effort in bother to learn anything else unless it is brought to them in an exceedingly simple-to-understand format.

All we need is for someone to translate all of this stuff into Mainstreamist language, and put it on the web somewhere...

Kind of like Mike Gmirkin does in his blogs! *wink-wink-nudge-nudge*


Mike H.

[MattEU]

The most effective way of changing ideas is not from the outside by conflict but from within by the insight rearrangement of available information. Insight is the only effective way of changing ideas in a myth situation - where information cannot be evaluated objectively. Even when information can be evaluated objectively, as in science, an insight rearrangement of information leads to huge leaps forward. Education is not only concerned with collecting information but also with the best ways of using information that has been collected.

When ideas lead information rather than lag behind progress is rapid. Yet we have developed no practical tools for handling insight. We can only go on collecting information and hope that at some stage it will come about. Lateral thinking is an insight tool.
quote from "Lateral Thinking" book written by Edward de Bono

Guess what book i got for Christmas

Perhaps an idea is to only introduce one idea or term per posting, on mainstream sites. This way you can stick under the radar and work from the inside. This only challenges them to think or rearrange one idea/fact at a time. Knock down or rearrange the mainstream castle one brick at a time.

[junglelord]

Change the paradigm, gestalt, instant breakdown and re-organization of a higher order....shake the foundations.
Do the Jitterbug into the EU Tensegrity.

[jjohnson]

I'm tight with all the above - a difficult part is finding an open portal. Sneaking in under the radar might lead to being unobserved unless one exposes oneself somewhat. I've tried writing to astronomers whose e-mail addresses are given so that you can ask or discuss some questions, but even with carefully worded leading questions that consider this or that EM phenomenon, or if there isn't a more direct way to see... all roads lead back to a stuffy old consensus viewpoint. If we are too much under the radar they want to innoculate us with their take on things, and if we are not, they will ignore the discussion or respond only in their terms. Where are we going to put the simplified appraoches up on the Web, and in what format? How about in the classrooms via teacher CE units and seminars? That's a cost and time item, unfortunately. It think some sort of solar system science is taught at some level from 4th or 5th grade on, in the US, and it is not what we would like kids to be thinking about, nor even how they should think.

Matt, your Christmas book looks really good; I've got to read it if only for the context of your quote above. I got The Black Swan, and it is such a fascinating read that in 2 days I'm close to half through it. I keep seeing the proponents of the current model in the examples, everywhere in the book, of what NOT to do. It is a fantastically useful insight into how one can improve thinking habits. One thing I've drawn from this is that we need to be thinking about what rare but falsifying element (aka Black Swan) could there be in our particular EU/PC version of the universe that would upset our applecart? We should not be looking so hard for confirming observations (they're everywhere, and NASA/ESU keep feeding them to us!)- it's the things that we normally do not bother to suspect or think about that could doom our hypothesis that we should be putting some serious time on.

I also got Bittencourt's Fundamentals of Plasma Physics as a support for Peratt's book, but it's a hard go for an old guy almsot 43 years out of school - architecture school at that. It is fundamental, though, and there fore useful, and I'm learning where to shut out his ideas about the sun's fusion interior and using mag fields to control Tokomak type fusion reactors and stick to stuff that applies to cosmic phenomena, since that's the interest here.

I see interest and volunteering by people here who claim to be good at visual programming but aren't so good at the specifics of the physics, and there are people here who have written on the EU extensively, mostly our founders, and there ought to be some method of synergy to get this together and come up with something really educational, even a good series on YouTube, that might eventually interest say, The Science Channel or Discovery or whatever. It's hard to overcome Michio's lead, though...

Keep the ideas coming - that's how brainstorming works best.

Jim

[junglelord]

Its clear to me that "education" and what "specific" education, one has, makes the largest bearing on if they have a voice. I tell you that most people who have learned the truth did it from the outside, on their own, like myself. Either that or they definitely work on the inside of black projects. There is no coming out at present for a multitude of reasons. Things are more connected then most care to admit, both in what is real, and that which is held up to be real, saddly it is the second that has hypnotized the masses into believe that the right education in the right field allows one to say almost anything and it be taken as a god given fact and universal law, a religion of science due to politics....a dark matter indeed....everyones asleep, who can wake them up?

Let the Gathering begin....the truth of magnetic fields has been resolved....they are never frozen.

As Feynman, Leighton, and Sands(1964) have shown, in standard physics, the magnetic force can be mathematically expressed solely in terms of the effect that a moving electric potential field produces on a charged particle obviating the need for magnetic potential field terms.

[mharratsc]

The Church of the Mainstream has already told us what our Black Swan is- no mathematics! Also they have informed us that we lack a Golden Goose- access to Mainstream-approved peer review

Only thing to do is work around it! Like it has been mentioned before- the EU hypothesis is a fledgling- we're not a Black Swan at all, but rather an 'ugly duckling'. No one wants to look at us know, but as we grow, the beauty of the hypothesis will become evident, and we'll be able to paddle out into the pond and show our stuff all proper-like!


Mike H.