What conditions are necessary for Birkeland currents?

[willendure]

If charged particles flow through non-magnetised space will they form Birkeland current? Or can such currents only form along existing magnetic field lines?

[Eutrophicated1]

Everything in space is constantly moving. Nothing is still. All matter, be it made up of electrons, positive or negative ions, or neutral atoms, has electromagnetic fields associated with it. These fields can extend beyond the spacial locus of the matter. Moving ionic matter has stronger electromagnetic fields. Magnetic fields rarely exist without associated electric fields. electromagnetic fields rarely exist in the absence of moving charged particles, ie electrons, or ions. Plasmas are clouds of moving charged particles, the denser the clouds, the more potentially energetic the plasma. A Birkeland current is identified as a dual layer plasma, concentrically oriented(or 2 streams) of oppositely moving and oppositely charged particles. They are not only energetic enough to have their co-valent compound bonds broken down, they can also be energetic enough to have at least some of their normally associated electrons stripped off of them. Birkeland currents occur naturally in space, and artificially on earth(for example in neon and fluorescent light fixtures).

[willendure]

In what sense does a moving ionic matter have a stronger electromagnetic field that non-moving?

Do magnetic fields _ever_ exist without electrical fields? They are one and the same thing, surely?

[Eutrophicated1]

In what sense does a moving ionic matter have a stronger electromagnetic field that non-moving?

When moving ionic particles are measured with a "Field Strength" meter, the field strength is larger than non-moving particles would have, if there was such a thing, which there isn't. Please reread all of what I said originally. Everything is in motion. The only reason non-moving particles are discussed is that mainstream physicists like to think they can describe the world, while virtually controling aspects of it that they cannot control.

Do magnetic fields _ever_ exist without electrical fields? They are one and the same thing, surely?

I'm not sure. I've measured the magnetic field strength of permanent magnets, but never the electric. Permanent magnets can have strong magnetic fields, while sitting motionless on a table. Of course if you move a permanent magnet across loops of copper wire, you will generate an electric current, which automatically also gives rise to an electric field. And don't call me Shirley.

The reason magnetic and electric fields are given 2 different names is because they are different, oftentimes, co-existing fields. The vector calculus describing these fields shows them as being spatially at right angles to each other. If you don't know what that means, you'll need to do a lot more reading on electromagnetic theory. Do some online searches, and you will find an abundance of such info.

[willendure]

Part of the reason I ask is this:

http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classe ... l_mag.html

Depending on the frame of reference, there is no difference between electrical and magnetic forces, they are really the same thing. Relativity also tells us there is no difference between moving and non-moving things, all reference frames are valid.

It is easy to see that once established, Birkeland currents would twist flows of charge together into strands in a self re-enforcing way. What I am trying to ask, is how do they get into that formation in the first place? What are the conditions necessary for them to form?

It would not seem sufficient to me that some cloud of charged particles in space is moving, hence induces a magnetic field, hence twists into strands and forms such a current - because what is moving? The same should also apply to a relatively static cloud of charged particles.

I also ask about whether there is a need for a pre-existing magnetic field for the current to flow along. For example, if we look at a formation like the 'Pillars of creation', we have linear flows growing out into space, EU would explain them as Birkeland currents. Are they following existing magnetic field lines, or did these flow self organise and create their own magnetic field?

If the latter, it would strike me that there are possibly two types of Birkeland current: ones such as cause the aurora borialis, which follow magnetic fields lines pre-existing, and ones that self organise.

[willendure]

Charles Chandler has some explanations, based around collapse of dusty clouds of Debye cells:

http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/15482.html

[jacmac]

willendure said:

If charged particles flow through non-magnetised space...

Is there non-magnetized space ? If the solar system has a magnetic field and our galaxy has a magnetic field, how far does one need to go to find non-magnetized space?

I understand trying to figure out how things work, but it seems like a chicken and egg question to me.

I donno !

Jack

[willendure]

Is there non-magnetized space ?

A good point. Would the presence of a weak magnetic field be enough to start a cloud of ioinized dust into a self re-enforcing process that forms Birkeland currents?

[antosarai]

Isn't electric potential difference between two points sine qua non for electric current?
Is there a mechanism for a weak magnetic field per se to cause such potential difference in a ionized cloud?

[Eutrophicated1]

You need to continue to use the same parameters in your line of questioning.
First you Ask about Birkeland currents, which are only associated with ionic or electron particles in plasmas.
Then you bring in some physicists discussion, using wires and relativity(which is a theory, not a Law).
Then you raise the questions about magnetism and electromotive force.

It is no wonder you might be confused.

Plasmas do not exist in wires, hence Birkeland currents do not exist in wires.
My part in this discussion is ended.

[willendure]

Isn't electric potential difference between two points sine qua non for electric current?
Is there a mechanism for a weak magnetic field per se to cause such potential difference in a ionized cloud?

I don't know because you are speaking latin.

[D_Archer]

Isn't electric potential difference between two points sine qua non for electric current?
Is there a mechanism for a weak magnetic field per se to cause such potential difference in a ionized cloud?

This is the crux, the thing you need for Birkeland currents is charge imbalance (electric potential), ie, 1 place in the Universe has a lot of charge and another place (just a bit) less, due to entropy, the more will go where there is less, this will set up moving charge, charge is self coherent over long distances. in sprial galaxies charge flows are directed outward along the arms (due to spin as well and the galaxies is inside larger galactic filaments, and that charges comes in at the poles of the galaxy)

Regards,
Daniel

ps. In my perspective, charge is light is physical photons as per Miles Mathis, a lot of photons can push ions/electrons or drag them along for the ride, ie charge underlies all E/M fields (E/M is ions/electrons).

[celeste]

If charged particles flow through non-magnetised space will they form Birkeland current? Or can such currents only form along existing magnetic field lines?

A question in return: In the water bridge experiments, we have what looks (and works?) like a current filament, yet it runs between the two beakers. It does not seem to matter if the water bridge is aligned with the background field in the room, correct?

[willendure]

If charged particles flow through non-magnetised space will they form Birkeland current? Or can such currents only form along existing magnetic field lines?

A question in return: In the water bridge experiments, we have what looks (and works?) like a current filament, yet it runs between the two beakers. It does not seem to matter if the water bridge is aligned with the background field in the room, correct?

Not sure, but yes, if you say so. What is the significance of this observation?

[BeAChooser]

In the water bridge experiments, we have what looks (and works?) like a current filament, yet it runs between the two beakers.

Does it really act like a Birkeland filament?

Can water bridges do this (observe the helical winding in pairs of Birkeland filaments)?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Nebula.jpg