Mathematical model for the electric universe

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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JouniJokela
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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by JouniJokela » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:48 pm

> the Planets are also rotating by Froude number 1

I don't really understand this, but I think it's interesting. Could this be a confirmation that space is made up of a fluid, the fluid being the ether?
No-Yes.
The space is empty but have "fluid", Mostly single Helium and Hydrogen atoms, but also their nucleis, bare "alpha particles" (He-nuclei 2 protons+ 2neutrons) and single electrons and Protons (H-nuclei is single proton). But ofcourse also other atoms and their nucleis, and even a lot of condensed objects.

These particles move and transfer movement as any moving fluid. And as the fluids in Earth, they go by the "Froude-law". Any water flow (river) in nature will finally set it's velocity and dimensions by this law. And If you calculate the Froude-number for planets, you found it's 1, for every one of them.

So the masses of the planets are not relevant at all! Now you might ask how come is the masses then following exactly the law of gravitation? Well the answer is simple, these masses are defined through the same law. So it's very doubtful if these masses are even correct. Look this;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment
They said that with this experiment, the were "weighing the world". But who can guarantee that the result is the same if this experiment is reproduced in ie. Mars?

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by JouniJokela » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:11 pm

>But modern GR does need to be corrected.

I'm still not sure about GR, I like some of the ither ideas for gravity.
Sorry about multiple posting. The GR (General relativity) is basically the completely correct Math for Physics. It just suffers from the same past as the whole Physics;
Mass is written allover, though it doesn't exist. It's a fictitious thing. There is no mass. There is also no gravity.

Just take the mass out of the physics, and then it's all correct.
Of course you might have some problems doing this as F=ma and E=mc^2, but after learning to talk about the Force without mass (it's basically just acceleration) and Energy without mass is "strength". It's nothing really new either; see this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s ... e_equation

The General relativity predicts now that with the growing velocity the mass goes to infinity. But when we leave the Mass out of Phyiscs, it free's us to be able to see, that it's just volume which goes to zero with increasing velocity. And the implementation of the zero-volume-energy is the photon. Nowadays it's said that photon has "zero mass", but the correct interpretation is Photon has "zero volume".

This also means that The only relative thing is actually the "Length contraction". Of course we can think that if energy has no volume it also doesn't have any time. (time dilation) But this is actually not true, because it still has velocity, though it hasn't got any volume. And velocity means time. In my point of view the time is pretty much constant.I think no time travel is possible etc. But this is an aspect which I haven't thought through yet.

Here's the whole story from me for those who want to read more;
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Everything

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by comingfrom » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:42 am

Thank you, Robbie
When you speak of the solar wind, it is predominately protons
The Wikipedia page on the solar wind lists electrons first
The solar wind is a stream of charged particles released from the upper atmosphere of the Sun. This plasma consists of mostly electrons, protons and alpha particles with energies usually between 1.5 and 10 keV;
and this friction action against the ionosphere does not account for the large static negative charge at the surface of the earth.
Not much of the Solar wind frictions against the atmosphere.
It comes up against the earth's magnetosphere well before then.

From what I read, most of the solar wind which the earth comes up against swirls around the earth and into the magnetotail, and some of it is drawn back along the fields lines and into to the poles.
Tesla revealed that the charge on the surface was 60KV negative relative to the ionosphere
This is a confirmation of what I was saying.
The passing positive charge solar wind should instead be ripping electrons away from the earth's atmosphere and carrying them off into space.Depositing protons is not going to accomplish this.
Most of the free electrons are in the earth, not in the atmosphere.
Even if they were, there is an ionosphere between the atmosphere and and outer space, which you suppose is populated with protons.
The charge on the earth should instead be positive by your description, but it's not.
Why? If earth is sucking in electrons, and the upper atmosphere captures the protons and cations by my description, how can earth be positive?

Finally the positive ions do reach the surface of earth, where they can easily capture free electrons and neutralize, and so become a part of earth.
The difference in mass you refer to and kinetic energy would also not support your assertion.
OK. If you say so.
How can you claim an electrical universe without establishing a mechanism for the ongoing process of charge separation?
Just because you do not accept my explanation, doesn't mean I didn't make one.
Give me a better explanation, and I will consider it.
To produce an ongoing asymmetry of charge that is being claimed here would require a generator like force maintaining the separation as it is continually being discharged as the balance of charge moves spontaneously towards re-establishing electrical symmetry.
The galaxy is a generator. The Sun is a generator. Even planets are generators.
The electric and magnetic fields they generate are witness to the fact they are generators.

But these are just my opinions, which I formed from studying EU theory.
I am open to being corrected.
~Paul

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by comingfrom » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:36 am

Thank you, upriver.

But I found the flow of your post hard to follow.
Particle Spin. Which of course is not really spin.
Then why call it spin?
And what is it really?

You must have some idea what it really is, to be so confident in pronouncing it is not really spin.
All of these actions are the addition of kinetic energy to the object being worked upon. Work being done, energy transferred.
And if you add kinetic energy to a photon particle which is already going maximum speed, c, for example, how does the photon keep that extra energy? Or what does it do with it?
In the case of the solar wind, if the force driving the wind was just pure kinetic/motion energy, like gravity, then it would be charge neutral instead of the action of an electric field. Maybe the sun is putting out the 5th force similar to Eugene Podkletnovs beam work.
The Sun puts out a huge amount of photons. Just stand outside on a sunny day and you can feel it, impacting upon your skin.
(Well, we do here, in sunny Australia.)

Ions are tiny quantum sized particles. Why would they not be pushed along by the photons?
Because Physicists haven't given photons mass and radius?
How then do photons impact on a retina, if they have no physical property?
How then do photons impart energy, if they have no physical property?

Seems to me, as soon as we call photons actual real things, then some mechanics can be worked out.
It even becomes obvious.
And you don't have to invent new and imaginary forces.
To do a mathematical model for EU I think would entail thinking about it in this fashion...
Electrodynamics has already been mathematically modeled. They call it QED.

Unfortunately, there are holes and fudges and competing theories everywhere in the maths.
And open confession that they don't really know.
They say it can't be known, to justifies themselves inventing heuristic math.
There is a lot in this universe to account for...
Back to what I said about the super computer simulator.
To get accurate and complete measurements of all the constituents, their densities and charges, and the potential differences in all regions of the plasma, in real naturally formed plasmas, is an impossibility with our sciences today.

And without those accurate measurements, the outcome of the simulations will not be accurate.

We can input a bunch of guesses.
But with still so little understanding of the mechanics, the guesses will be wild.
I mean, if they input that photons have no mass, no real physical property, then the model cannot calculate the effect of the photons in the plasma.
But they will input an effect, because they know photons effect, even while they continue to say photons have no physical properties such as mass, or size.

Magical point particles :D
~Paul

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by comingfrom » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:01 am

I left your posts till last, Jouni.

I am still part way through reading your paper.
And I'm impressed. But it appears to have some problems.

Not sure if you are open to feedback, but here goes anyway.
First things, you should not divert into speaking about your personal life problems in a physics paper, and you need a proof reader, to fix the spelling and grammar mistakes. I could even do that for you. Also, some of your statements seemed incorrect to me. Plainly wrong facts (but maybe it is me still wrong - I allow the possibility).

Even so, I overlooked those surface problems to examine the theory.
Right from the beginning you want us to drop mass, and replace it with something that is even less well known than mass, and still called mass. Electromagnetic mass, which, from what I could understand, is really just momentum, cause by electromagnetic forces giving things (which are masses) velocity, and therefore momentum.

Then, instead of explaining this mechanics of electromagnetism, you do a bit of math on the mass of a neutron, and determine it is 2.531 times the mass of an electron. But how can that be, if there is no such thing as mass? And why is mass still in your math, after you set out by telling "there is no mass"?

(Note: standard physics says more like 2,000 times)

This makes for "bumpy" reading to me, when you move on when things you said don't seem to be wrapped up clearly yet.

Mass is Density times Volume.
If you want to say "there is no mass" as a given, you have to explain away either density or volume, or both. You didn't even go into the standard definition of mass, which I think you have to, if you want to dispute it. (The first time you mention density is on page 25, and you never mention it in relation to mass.)

I don't want to rip your paper apart, I think it is a champion effort. Just saying, I think it still needs work.

Now to your posts.
Oh yeah... I forgot about double layers. What causes double layers? and is there somewhere good on the internet to learn about them?
An integral feature of electromagnetics. Like likes like. Positives attract to positives, and negatives attract to negatives. When you have a concentration of one polarity of charge, it forms a polarity boundary around itself. I see them as a feature of the sums of charges, as collections of charged particles tend to act as a single charge entity. Charged particles generally cannot cross the boundary, unless they are energetic and happen to have the correct trajectory.

Here is Alfvén's paper.
(I think it was Hannes Alfvén who coined the term.)
Also, has Miles Mathis' ideas lead to any new experiments?
Mathis is despised in the mainstream. Even his Wikipedia page was removed. Not one of his papers has ever been published in a mainstream journal. Most mainstream physicists fall to accusing him, rather than test his ideas.

But in his papers he suggests experiments, and sometimes gives experiments even anyone can do, without a lab or anything. Try this one My bicycle seat as proof of the charge field.

He has thousands of papers, and explains many things. I saw you struggling to explain Neutrons, and that you mentioned the Cavendish experiment. Just to give you a couple to start.

Caveat: I'm not saying M Mathis is right, but he is fantastic, in that he teaches the standard models of physics, while he gives you his theory. Nobody made physics, and the maths of physics, so comprehensible to me before. And, once you digest a few of his papers, and you start to comprehend his theory, it does seem very logical and mechanical and straightforward.
Just take the mass out of the physics, and then it's all correct.
Here is your given, again.

Can I ask, Does your physics still have densities and volume? Because that is all that mass is. That is the definition of mass. If you know the average density, and the volume, you can calculate the mass.

I believe it is because Physics deny photons mass, that makes it so incorrect.

They turned light into mathematical point energy non physical things, and then struggle to explain how light effects physical things.

Much like Dark Matter. Undetectable because it doesn't interact with any physical thing, yet it effects the rotation of galaxies, the biggest physical things we know. Pure contradiction.

Or like the Higgs particle. The particle that gives mass to all other particles, is predicted (and supposedly found) to have a certain mass of it's own. I guess that is why it is the God particle, since it can give mass to itself.

Pleasure to talk to you. Stimulating ideas. :D
Some individuals (like us) will come to the truth of it, but the masses never will
~Paul

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by JouniJokela » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:51 am

^ Paul,

Well, Yes Your critic is pretty much approved and accepted. You just listed the plain facts.
Ie. the Neutron mass stuff, I've note my self it's quite poorely written point and even has a mistake in it. And the language. Well What can I do? See my profile text here;
http://physics.stackexchange.com/users/ ... elaturbine

The difficulty of producing such a paper is to hold it enough short to be able to hold the "big picture" clear. So I have avoided to go too deep in to the details in the paper. But You would be amazed the amount of number-cracking I have made to produce this paper. The Biggest excel file is 10 Mb; just data no fancy graphics.

The key-proof of the whole Idea is to show that planets rotates and orbits without gravity or because "it's allways been so" I found clear proof about drag, it's shown in Figure 20. this means the Orbital rotation can't have lasted anywhere near 4.5 x10^9 Years. I also found the signs of the "pump" which pushes the Earth forward. Figure 13 is from Feynman lectures, and the corresponding stuff I analysed in Thermosphere is best shown in Figure 19.

Pls. note that these are just a scratsch of the data I have gone through and anylysed. Ie. here is quite good analyse for the fluctuations of LOD;
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... rgy-change
I've also analysed Mercury;
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... modynamics

But your post points out the Density and volume. This is the main message of my paper. After I found out my self NOT-understanding what I had wrote week before, I realized that the most difficult thing to understand here is the Massless Force and Energy. And If this message doesn't go through, the whole paper can expect to have the Faith of Majus Opus from year 1267 (Roger Bacon).

Density is Energy density! This density propably can't be any higher than that of single Neutron. But this "Energy" must be defined without mass. So it's not the same Energy we know; And thus this density is not even "Energy density"
I named it as a "strength". That's why I didn't bother to work too long ie. with the Neutron mass. The "mass" is a conseptual error. It's like trying to explain mars's retrogade motion through geocentric model. (Yes, It's possible)

If you don't notice any difficulty with the terminology, then my paper has not succeed at all; "Strength density?" Ok?
Or maybe "momentum density?" I am open to any name. But the most important thing to start with, is to define the things we are about to trying to talk.

We stand in front of the Problem which Wittgenstein put well in words; "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." So my paper has such a serious problems by definition. But these are problems I can't solve alone. Language building needs a forced dialogue where the meanings are simply agreed.

I am pretty ready to enter any debate on the issue. And I can use any preferred words for this debate.
To give some example; What is ie. Electric current if it's defined without a mass?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere We simply don't have any defintion for that. To communicate this paper forward is not only spelling issue. But the "funny thing" is that all the needed stuff is actually allready well known! Ie. the second moment of Area (Jäyhyysmomentti in Finnish...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_moment_of_area describes the properties of matter much better than any "mass". The unit of it is m^4

According to my experience the amount of persons able to talk about these issues was very limited even there where i studied the stuff. Any one can do the math as soon the Equations are given, but I mean who is really able to talk about the reality behind all these equations. I need hours to get in to such a mood.

So the paper I did, is nothing else but the start-shot for the discussion. A proposal about how these issues could be talked. And as a such it just can't be too long, or nobody will ever read it, and there won't be any discussion.

Maybe the whole paper should be re-structurated with a totally different approach. But it doesn't really matter what we do, the Nature remains exactly the same. I actually didn't introduce any really new math or physics in this paper. I just expanded the usage of existing stuff, and reduced the amount of basic components. These video of Feynmann pretty well describes my Feelings and what I am trying to do here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM-zWTU7X-k from 4 min forwards,
The long one is this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN_-Flswy0
...Though I have allready gone through this list;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_u ... in_physics
and I actually could explain allmost all of these problems through this idea!

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by comingfrom » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:15 pm

Thank you, Jouni.
Well, Yes Your critic is pretty much approved and accepted. You just listed the plain facts.
Ie. the Neutron mass stuff, I've note my self it's quite poorely written point and even has a mistake in it. And the language. Well What can I do?
Get a proof reader.

My English is good, if you like I can fix the spelling and grammar. I will do it free for you, in my spare time.
The difficulty of producing such a paper is to hold it enough short to be able to hold the "big picture" clear. So I have avoided to go too deep in to the details in the paper. But You would be amazed the amount of number-cracking I have made to produce this paper. The Biggest excel file is 10 Mb; just data no fancy graphics.
I appreciate the effort you have gone too.

And I cannot be too critical. I never made such a paper myself. Just giving you a reader's view.
The key-proof of the whole Idea is to show that planets rotates and orbits without gravity or because "it's allways been so" I found clear proof about drag, it's shown in Figure 20. this means the Orbital rotation can't have lasted anywhere near 4.5 x10^9 Years.
I intuitively agree with the last part of your statement, but what if it is because of a combination of gravity and EM? Or some other reason?

I mean, gravity might just not be as we thought, but an apple falling on our head tells us that gravity is real. Doesn't it?
I also found the signs of the "pump" which pushes the Earth forward. Figure 13 is from Feynman lectures, and the corresponding stuff I analysed in Thermosphere is best shown in Figure 19.
Sounds so much better than rubber mat style curved space/time fabric (with diagrams that show secondary bodies should actually spiral/fall to somewhere south of the primary body's south pole) to me. But I need to study more, before I can comment.
But your post points out the Density and volume. This is the main message of my paper. After I found out my self NOT-understanding what I had wrote week before, I realized that the most difficult thing to understand here is the Massless Force and Energy.
Again, the definition of mass implies it is a physical thing. To say something has no mass is the same as saying it is not a thing.

For example, velocity is not mass. But without a mass, you don't have a thing to have velocity. Does that make sense?

I now see it happens a lot in Physics. People are redefining the meanings of words in order to make their theories works. This adds confusion to the already big pile of misunderstandings.

Take "fields", for another example. They are not things anymore, in Physics. Just potential, or force, or acceleration. But if fields are not things, how will the farmers plant their crops? Since fields are not things anymore, to physicists, they can't do much with them, except speculate, and talk about them a lot.
Density is Energy density! This density propably can't be any higher than that of single Neutron. But this "Energy" must be defined without mass. So it's not the same Energy we know; And thus this density is not even "Energy density"
I named it as a "strength".
"Charge" is already defined as mass, as per Coulomb.
If we study charge, we find that it has the same fundamental dimensions as mass. The statcoulomb has dimensions of M ^(1/2) L^(3/2) T -1. This gives the total charge of two particles the cgs dimension ML^3/T^2 . But mass has the dimensions L^3 /T^2, which makes the total charge M^2. So we can treat Coulomb’s charges just like Newton’s masses.

We write the equation like this:

F = k(DV)(dv)/r^2
I quote that from Mathis for two reasons. It might help you, or you might comment, and help me understand better.
If you don't notice any difficulty with the terminology, then my paper has not succeed at all; "Strength density?" Ok?
I notice difficulties with terminology all the time in Physics.

That's why I be such a stickler about keeping the original definitions of words.

If mass is not mass, or fields don't actually consist of anything, or particles are virtual, then the theory has to be wrong, that the meanings of words had to be redefined to fit it.

Instead of saying mass doesn't exist, why not say, mass is energy density (if that is what you propose it actually is).
(Then straight away people will think of Einstein, who already said that all matter is energy, which equates mass to matter. Matter exists in your theory, does it?)
Or maybe "momentum density?" I am open to any name.
Just not the name "mass"?
But the most important thing to start with, is to define the things we are about to trying to talk.
The current definition of mass is that it is a property of matter. Not a well understood property, but nevertheless, without mass, matter is nothing. Or pure energy (if there is any such thing as pure energy - I suspect all energy is carried, or contained, by some matter).
We stand in front of the Problem which Wittgenstein put well in words; "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
But the bridle has come off the tongues of men.
So my paper has such a serious problems by definition. But these are problems I can't solve alone. Language building needs a forced dialogue where the meanings are simply agreed.
I studied scripture before I came to physics, and see the same thing happened in religion. Testaments are now covenants, and walking in the law now means driving to church. Jesus became God so the Father in heaven can now safely be ignored. Accusing has become reproof.

To understand the word, I read it with the old Oxford dictionary at hand. Turns out the scripture is not saying what men say it says. Not even close. I am now attempting to do the same with Physics. That is, unwind the confusion created by men who redefine the fundamental words needed to describe a theory. I am already confident I will crack physics, as I did God's law in the Bible. Give me a few years :D
I am pretty ready to enter any debate on the issue. And I can use any preferred words for this debate
Isn't it better to use the standard in use words which everyone understands, with the meaning that everyone holds?

Too much physics is hard to understand, and you of all people should know, when you really delve into it to try and understand, you often find out they have a different meaning for some term than what is standard, and that is their excuse. And the theory stands on a non standard definition.
To give some example; What is ie. Electric current if it's defined without a mass?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere We simply don't have any defintion for that. To communicate this paper forward is not only spelling issue. But the "funny thing" is that all the needed stuff is actually allready well known! Ie. the second moment of Area (Jäyhyysmomentti in Finnish...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_moment_of_area describes the properties of matter much better than any "mass". The unit of it is m^4
Electric current is real photons, with real mass, and a radius.

Man made electricity is always pushing a stream of electrons, and our intruments measure the electrons, but in nature, electricity is a field of photons, whether it pushing any particles or not. And electricity (the field of photons) will push electrons, or protons, or ions, or neutral atoms, or any combination of these. The easiest natural electricity to visualize is the Sun's electric field.
According to my experience the amount of persons able to talk about these issues was very limited even there where i studied the stuff. Any one can do the math as soon the Equations are given, but I mean who is really able to talk about the reality behind all these equations. I need hours to get in to such a mood.
I let the clouds be my teacher. By watching clouds every day and whenever I go out, I am learning much about the behaviour of natural electricity.
So the paper I did, is nothing else but the start-shot for the discussion. A proposal about how these issues could be talked. And as a such it just can't be too long, or nobody will ever read it, and there won't be any discussion.
I hope I don't come across too harsh or contentious. I do challenge things that you say. The concepts that are new to me. But if you want me to try on your theory, you have to answer to my challenges, and your answers should give me the concepts, the pieces, so I can build the theory up in my mind.
Maybe the whole paper should be re-structurated with a totally different approach.
Sometimes that has to be done. But you have a base that can be worked on, and adjusted, and improved as time goes on, and as your knowledge and understanding grows.

Thank you for all that. My best wishes.
I'm going to spend some time looking at your links now.
~Paul

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by Robbie_G » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:31 pm

Paul,
The dominant elements of solar fusion, the crust of the earth and living organisms are the CHNOPS elements. They are non-metallic and highly electronegative. In fact the second most abundant element resulting from stellar fusion, in the crust and surface of the earth and in the bodies of living organisms is Oxygen, this is not a coincidence.
Oxygen is second only to fluorine in electronegativity and by mass is 80% of water. The surface of the earth is 80% water and the bodies of living organisms are 80% water. This high concentration explains the negative charge of the earth's surface, and the negative charge of living organisms.
Oxygen with 8 electrons and 8 protons has a sum of charge, positive and negative that should cancel out completely but it does not. In spite of a numerical balance oxygen behaves as if it was still net positive charge, and so it attracts extra electrons. Linus Pauling first described this in reference to chemistry and a comparative of electro-negativity values.
The high net negative charge(60kv) discovered by Tesla is explained by this as the simple result of the high concentration of oxygen on the earth's surface.The higher the concentration of oxygen then the more concentrated the negative charge as electrons are captured(it's an electron trap).
Given that the rest of the non-CHNOPS elements are mostly metals with loose attractions to electrons, then it makes sense that the iron core of the earth has supplied the negative charge of the surface by providing the electrons for this. This also means that the iron core is positively charged and that the circulation of this charged fluid within is actually responsible for the magnetosphere itself.
~Robert
~~~Chasing the Dragon's tail~~~

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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by upriver » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:16 pm

comingfrom wrote:Thank you, upriver.

But I found the flow of your post hard to follow.
Particle Spin. Which of course is not really spin.
Then why call it spin?
And what is it really?

You must have some idea what it really is, to be so confident in pronouncing it is not really spin.
Stern Gerlach experiment shows that spin is a magnetic property. So that would make it a different magnetic vector than the di pole moment?
I dont think that there is any real model of an electron that says that its a spinning sphere....
If you are using a wave aether model of some sort then its a particular standing wave motion/frequency.
All of these actions are the addition of kinetic energy to the object being worked upon. Work being done, energy transferred.
And if you add kinetic energy to a photon particle which is already going maximum speed, c, for example, how does the photon keep that extra energy? Or what does it do with it?
The photon is emitted from an electron when kinetic energy is added to an electron. A photon is probably a packet of kinetic energy..
In the case of the solar wind, if the force driving the wind was just pure kinetic/motion energy, like gravity, then it would be charge neutral instead of the action of an electric field. Maybe the sun is putting out the 5th force similar to Eugene Podkletnovs beam work.
The Sun puts out a huge amount of photons. Just stand outside on a sunny day and you can feel it, impacting upon your skin.
(Well, we do here, in sunny Australia.)

Ions are tiny quantum sized particles. Why would they not be pushed along by the photons?
Because Physicists haven't given photons mass and radius?
How then do photons impact on a retina, if they have no physical property?
How then do photons impart energy, if they have no physical property?

Seems to me, as soon as we call photons actual real things, then some mechanics can be worked out.
It even becomes obvious.
And you don't have to invent new and imaginary forces.
Photons probably help push the solar wind along but they alone dont seem to be strong enough to do it alone. You would need something more like a laser but the density of the plasma precludes a photon field strong enough to push the solar wind along....

I am not inventing anything. Podkletnovs work has been replicated. It a superconducting electrode that puts out a pushing force of some sort. Its definitely an electrical phenomena if you read the paper.... it would fit the bill for causing a plasma to move in one direction...

Photons come from electrons and when they are emitted at some v. They dont have a rest mass because at rest they dont seem to exist outside an electron
To do a mathematical model for EU I think would entail thinking about it in this fashion...
Electrodynamics has already been mathematically modeled. They call it QED.

Unfortunately, there are holes and fudges and competing theories everywhere in the maths.
And open confession that they don't really know.
They say it can't be known, to justifies themselves inventing heuristic math.
"QED mathematically describes all phenomena involving electrically charged particles interacting by means of exchange of photons and represents the quantum counterpart of classical electromagnetism giving a complete account of matter and light interaction."

" Nothing is implied about how a particle gets from one point to another"

I am talking about what are photons and electron made of. QED is an accounting system. It doesn't describe a lower level of functioning. It doesnt describe everything as being kinetic energy interactions driven by some sort of field...

Gravity is adding kinetic energy to an object even when that object is at rest on the surface of the gravitator...
Its still generating a force that holds the object to the surface...
There is a lot in this universe to account for...
Back to what I said about the super computer simulator.
To get accurate and complete measurements of all the constituents, their densities and charges, and the potential differences in all regions of the plasma, in real naturally formed plasmas, is an impossibility with our sciences today.

And without those accurate measurements, the outcome of the simulations will not be accurate.

We can input a bunch of guesses.
But with still so little understanding of the mechanics, the guesses will be wild.
I mean, if they input that photons have no mass, no real physical property, then the model cannot calculate the effect of the photons in the plasma.
But they will input an effect, because they know photons effect, even while they continue to say photons have no physical properties such as mass, or size.

Magical point particles :D
~Paul
Yep

Brant

JouniJokela
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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by JouniJokela » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:14 am

comingfrom wrote: I can fix the spelling and grammar. I will do it free for you, in my spare time.
At this phase, it propably won't help too much to get more audience. This paper also has the Chapter 5, 6 and 7, which could be mostly left away to make this paper easier to absorb.
I allready have "Full version" from this paper with 3 extra pages, Chapters 6.2 and 7.3 Where I write from Uranus and Mars. But this stuff is "so grazy" or "so far ahead" that I simply left it out. It would be something like Newton speaking from Special relativity.

So I think producing whole new paper with simpler Structure is the "way to go" forward.
comingfrom wrote: I intuitively agree with the last part of your statement, but what if it is because of a combination of gravity and EM? Or some other reason?
You can say "Gravity is EM". Or you can say "Everything is EM" which then practically means "There is no Gravity". But I have no need to force some one to say "There is no Gravity" cause there really is a EM phenomenon which has been named as "Gravity". And that is the simplest way to think this phenomenon.

I give you an example; Is it wrong to say "Earth is the center of everything"? NO, it's completely correct statement. You can attach your coordinate system anyway you like. The nature still works correctly. Placing the coordinates that way only makes it very difficult to see "the bigger picture". But then; The small picture is much easier to understand that way.
comingfrom wrote: Again, the definition of mass implies it is a physical thing. To say something has no mass is the same as saying it is not a thing.
But what actually is the definition of Mass? It's the last physical thing which the people have been unable to define without a prototype;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass#Definitions_of_mass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_u ... base_units
comingfrom wrote: For example, velocity is not mass. But without a mass, you don't have a thing to have velocity. Does that make sense?
That makes perfectly sense, when I just think Mass = weight= amount = matter = (massless)energy-density
comingfrom wrote: I now see it happens a lot in Physics. People are redefining the meanings of words in order to make their theories works. This adds confusion to the already big pile of misunderstandings.
I agree strongly with this point. I tried to avoid this confusion as much as I could. This effort is written open in Chapter 2.1.

The problem is that physics is prinicipally circular reasoning; if F=ma then m= a/F. So which actually defines which?
You can't define m without F, or F without m! The mass was originally the force it caused on the scale. (think here a spring-scale) So it's actually F=F and nothing really new was defined. Galileo found this already better; everything accelerates with the same rate no matter what is their mass.
comingfrom wrote: Take "fields", for another example. Since fields are not things anymore, to physicists, they can't do much with them, except speculate, and talk about them a lot.
"Field" is pretty good consept. The problem is that when you talk about "field" with words like "Energy" (MxL^2/T^2) or "Force" (MxL/T^2) you talk it with mass, and you really need to talk a lot to be able to explain something.
it's the same problem as the Geocentric model had with Mars, A huge amount of Talk was needed to describe it, before the Heliocentric model reduced the whole thing in a few sentence.
comingfrom wrote: So we can treat Coulomb’s charges just like Newton’s masses.
Yes we can. It's only more complicated.
comingfrom wrote: F = k(DV)(dv)/r^2
I quote that from Mathis for two reasons. It might help you, or you might comment, and help me understand better.
The answer is given by Mathis;
"Once again, the volume is the gravitational field and the density is the E/M field."

The problem is that you need two fields. This is no problem as long as you are only in Earth and you study only stuff above planck-scale. We can also make another approach; We continue talking everything with mass. It's no problem to me (Btw. Thanks! what I am now about to write here should be already included in my paper) this just means that we need to adjust/define the Gravitational constant (G) differently for every location in universe. It's actually allready measured fact that this "constant" is not constant. With this way we also get the correct answers; no black holes, no Dark matters, no time travel. This constant would also be relative to the speed of light, so the lorentz formation for mass will become pretty complicated. But it's just math and would thus work perfectly, we just need to be able to define this variable-constant correctly. Here's the variability of G shown;
http://www.sheldrake.org/about-rupert-s ... ant-varies
You will surely find more with Google. The small g varies a lot too.
comingfrom wrote: Instead of saying mass doesn't exist, why not say, mass is energy density (if that is what you propose it actually is).
(Then straight away people will think of Einstein, who already said that all matter is energy, which equates mass to matter. Matter exists in your theory, does it?)
It's correct to say "mass is energy density" the only problem is, that there is also another kind of "energy density" the "photon energy density" which has nothing to do with mass, but it still causes the "mass-energy-density" to be more or less "massive". So you end up adding "dark mass" or adjusting the G this all is mathematically correct. It just adds complexity.
comingfrom wrote: Just not the name "mass"?
Any name is good for me. We only need to check out that we use the same meaning of this word. Our words doesn't change the reality. I.e. 95% of the maps are still drawn completely flat though we now Earth is a sphere. This information is still useless in the most of us for the most of the time. The same issue will be with the mass. It's the most practical way to define the amount of matter. And it will be thus used forever. QED has either not replaced Snell's law, though the law is not quite correct, it's just very practical in use.
comingfrom wrote: I studied scripture before I came to physics, and see the same thing happened in religion. Testaments are now covenants, and walking in the law now means driving to church. Jesus became God so the Father in heaven can now safely be ignored. Accusing has become reproof.

To understand the word, I read it with the old Oxford dictionary at hand. Turns out the scripture is not saying what men say it says. Not even close. I am now attempting to do the same with Physics.
I just agree with this. Reagan said once
Reagan wrote: How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.
And this phrase can be expanded to religion, physics, you name it.

comingfrom wrote: Isn't it better to use the standard in use words which everyone understands, with the meaning that everyone holds?
Sure, and but if you mean something else, you need to use different words.
comingfrom wrote: Too much physics is hard to understand, and you of all people should know, when you really delve into it to try and understand, you often find out they have a different meaning for some term than what is standard, and that is their excuse. And the theory stands on a non standard definition.
Yes. I opened a bottle of Sparkling wine when I found that I can use the Standard Froude-law to define the "Gravitation" without a mass. And I opened the second bottle, when I realized that I can use the Standard "
specific supply" from Euler to define the "massless energy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s ... e_equation
comingfrom wrote: I hope I don't come across too harsh or contentious. I do challenge things that you say. The concepts that are new to me. But if you want me to try on your theory, you have to answer to my challenges, and your answers should give me the concepts, the pieces, so I can build the theory up in my mind.
I have zero-problem with this kind of issues. I am not claiming to know "everything" or that my doings are completely free from errors. But I have gone through enough information to be able to stand alone with the knowledge I have. Why was it so easy to Galileo stand in front of inquisition? Just because he had seen the Galilean moons with his own eyes and also understood what it really means.

Here's funny stuff about turbulence; It hasn't got much to do with this stuff (well the Froude do apply all over), but when you see this kind of stuff in nature with your own eyes, it's more convincing than any book or text can ever be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiye-tT ... FE&index=2

Instead of this I would like to show you the whole picture I've created through the measurement data from Thermosphere, but such a picture doesn't quite exist. If you compare the figure 14 to 16 and 15 to 19 from my paper you can have a "glimpse" about the dynamic. What it means that The Yellow H 11-15 line is there and Blue H 23-03 are differently? It means that certain level of Hydrogen varies about (650-> 1000 km) 350 km in height in just 12 hours. This compared to the height of ISS (400 km); where everything is still pretty constant. Gravity is a push from outside, it's not a pull form inside. Nothing attracts. The (gravitational) acceleration is the lack of this push because of some reason.

seasmith
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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by seasmith » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:28 am

~
Jouni Jokela,

Best paper i've read in a while.
[note: don't forget the inverse cube law of magnetic forces, when examining your Froude ratios.]

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Everything


Also, kudos for you expositions on the SI system of units. For years been saying here that those artifices are like a self-circling merry-go-round, trying to catch the brass ring of charge.

JouniJokela
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Location: Swiss

Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by JouniJokela » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:25 am

Seasmith,

Thanks. This paper can't be complete. There is a lot of interesting stuff which I must left out, cause it would only added length and complexity.

This paper can't be completely error-free either. I was so many times confused by self whilst mixing the "old" force and energy to the new ones, that it would be a miracle if the paper would be "clean" as I didn't even got anyone to read it for corrections. I have people around me, but none of them are able to talk with me in this level of physics.

But I know that this is correct. It wen't exactly as Richard Fenyman explains it in this video;
https://youtu.be/MIN_-Flswy0?t=3008
(50 min 08 s - 52 min 15 s in the video)
"it's possible to know when you are right way ahead"
"you can recognize the truth by a beauty and simplicity"
"because more comes out that get's in"
"the truth is allways more simple than you thought"


And all the way I got more and more out of it. It was truly amazing to become an idea, and then think what is the consequences of this idea, and then try to figure out how/where it could be observed. And then you just write this in google, and all the observations are in front of you in 0.2 seconds. Ie. seasonal variation of half-life of Radon-222. An issue I certainly had never heard before. But if you google "variations of half-life". you immidietly find an article "The mystery of the varying nuclear decay" where this hypothesis is allready a measured fact;
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/new ... lear-decay
But I never trusted a single article, I always wanted to found three observations. So ie. Radium-226 found from that article was just a start, and I didn't even bothered to add it in the paper, cause Radon-222 was so much better example.

And other point in the video;
https://youtu.be/MIN_-Flswy0?t=2088
(34 min 48 s - ~36 min 20 s in the video)
" we extend the ideas beyond their range"
"it's only useful of it's make predictions"
"it's only useful if tells you about some experiment which hasn't been done"


So that's why I wrote the chapters 5, 6 and 7; I tried to extend the idea beyond their range.
Thereafter I have produced a new paper (not published anywhere yet, just got it ready few days ago) where I went through these questions; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_u ... in_physics

And I really could produce reasonable explanation for every one of them! Of course some questions are simply similar nonsense, like the old question before Galilei; "How does the heavenly objects orbs as solid, incorruptible material in the Firmament?" Which can't be reasonably answered, cause there just isn't any "Firmament", and neither is the orbs solid or incorruptible https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament ... evelopment

But there was also a lot of good questions. Most of them were actually just additional proof, that this is right. Though nothing is right or even wrong. This is just a simpler explanation which is less wrong than the old ones if "less wrong" is defined through the wider usability of a single theory.

Lloyd
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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by Lloyd » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:13 am

EU Model with Math
Dr_Mat_Hunt wrote:Hi,
I am interested in a mathematical model of the electric universe. I am a mathematical modeller by trade and I have done some work on waves in magnetohydrodynamics (surface and internal) waves. So I have some knowledge of plasmas and how they work. Is there a main set of equations for plasma cosmology? If you have a link, I would be very interested in seeing them.
Regards
Dr Mat Hunt
Charles Chandler has the most detailed and complete EU model that I know of at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6031, which includes calculations. He often shows all of the calculations that go into each of his papers. See for example his Accretion paper. At the end of it he has a link onsite to the many calculations used for that paper. If you or any knowledgeable person gets a chance to review his calculations and theory, I'd be interested. I have a thread for discussing his model at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 10&t=15374.
Last edited by Lloyd on Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

Lloyd
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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by Lloyd » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:50 am

New Thread for Jokela Model
Looks like several people like Jokela's paper, so I started a thread to discuss it at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 10&t=16249, since there doesn't seem to be a thread for it already. Shall we all go there for that discussion, so as not to get too far off topic here?

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comingfrom
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Re: Mathematical model for the electric universe

Post by comingfrom » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:49 pm

Thank you Robbie.

That explains the polar nature of water too.

~~~~~`
Thank you, Brant.
Stern Gerlach experiment shows that spin is a magnetic property. So that would make it a different magnetic vector than the di pole moment?
Yes. Magnetic fields are orthogonal to the electric fields that formed them.
I dont think that there is any real model of an electron that says that its a spinning sphere....
Not in mainstream physics.
If you are using a wave aether model of some sort then its a particular standing wave motion/frequency.
In a spinning sphere model, the aether consists of spinning light photons, and the spins cause the wave motions, as well as the orthogonal magnetic field.
The photon is emitted from an electron when kinetic energy is added to an electron. A photon is probably a packet of kinetic energy..
In a spinning sphere model, electrons recycle photons, but not as many as photons as Protons and Neutrons recycle.
Photons probably help push the solar wind along but they alone dont seem to be strong enough to do it alone.
Why? Do you suppose sub atomic particles are too heavy, or do photons not have enough mass?
You would need something more like a laser but the density of the plasma precludes a photon field strong enough to push the solar wind along....
The energy the sun puts out is a lot stronger than a laser.
I am not inventing anything.
I know it was not you that invented that. You said.
Podkletnovs work has been replicated. It a superconducting electrode that puts out a pushing force of some sort. Its definitely an electrical phenomena if you read the paper.... it would fit the bill for causing a plasma to move in one direction...
You don't need a superconducting electrode to push a current through a plasma. Novelty plasma balls don't have superconducting electrodes, to name one example.
Photons come from electrons and when they are emitted at some v.
This is the standard explanation, but it doesn't actually explain anything.
And even in the standard model, v of photons is always c.
They dont have a rest mass because at rest they dont seem to exist outside an electron
Photons travel at the speed of light. They are not in an electron when they strike your retina, but maybe electrons in retina absorb them.
I am talking about what are photons and electron made of.
Are you?
QED is an accounting system. It doesn't describe a lower level of functioning. It doesnt describe everything as being kinetic energy interactions driven by some sort of field...
If it isn't EM or gravity fields that "drives" everything, then what do they say drives them?
Gravity is adding kinetic energy to an object even when that object is at rest on the surface of the gravitator...
I know. I'm getting more energetic every day. :)
Its still generating a force that holds the object to the surface...
Like two magnets in embrace.

~~~~~~~~
Thank you, Jouni.

After reading your post in the planetary science section, I don't know what to say to you anymore.
I was stunned to see you postulate a theory that requires mass.

~Paul

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