Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

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David
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Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by David » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:10 pm

At the Electric Universe conference (EU2015), Stephen Crothers made the shocking and controversial claim that general relativity is "really nothing other than some kind of numerology":
Stephen Crothers wrote:
The title of my talk is “General Relativity: A Case Study in Numerology”. Now, I mean that both facetiously and literally because I am going to show you today, using mathematics and numbers, that general relativity and all its associated things, such as black holes and big bangs, are really nothing other than some kind of numerology.
This thread will examine that startling claim and see if it can stand up to scrutiny.

Also, I would like to extend a friendly invitation to Stephen Crothers to come forward and defend the material he presented at the Electric Universe conference (EU2015).

Reference:
To Have and Not to Have - the Paradox of Black Hole Mass -- Stephen Crothers
http://vixra.org/abs/1508.0106

General Relativity: A Case Study in Numerology -- Stephen Crothers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBorBKDnE3U
Watch segment 7:00 to 8:30

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Zyxzevn
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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by Zyxzevn » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:08 am

I agree with most of his work.

I was recently following a nice discussion on physics forums where someone asked:
If gravity moves by the speed of light, how can it escape a black hole?

The question was answered by referring to "virtual" particles, that are supposed to be faster than light.

That question was actually answered by Crothers in his presentation using calculations.
The place where gravity reaches the speed of light is calculated in Hilbert Space.
If you convert it to normal space it becomes irrational, according to Crothers' math.
Irrational numbers usually have a non-physical meaning. So he came with his
conclusion that there is no place in space where gravity reaches the speed of light.

If you know anything about relativity, you should know that if anything goes faster than light it
makes general relativity impossible. The Hilbert Space used in General Relativity can only deal with
things that are slower or equal to the speed of light. The math becomes invalid if anything becomes faster.
That is why scientists are having so much trouble to combine quantum physics and general relativity.
Quantum Physics has instant "spooky interactions" over a distance. Quantum physics, which has been
proven to be the most accurate theory ever, is actually making general relativity invalid on a fundamental level.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by Mjolnir » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:10 pm

I don't understand if you simply have a problem with the use of the term "numerology", og if you have some actual objections to the arguments SC presented. If it is the latter, why don't you present your objections first, and then invite SC or anyone else to respond? If it is the first, it is not very interesting, is it?

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by Zyxzevn » Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:56 pm

Mjolnir wrote:.. the use of the term "numerology"..
My guess is that Crothers saw that in Black Holes numbers are used for 2 different things:
Hilbert Space and normal Space. Numerology often uses numbers for one thing and than the other.
It is hard to understand if you did not understand his presentation.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by David » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:21 pm

Mjolnir wrote:I don't understand if you simply have a problem with the use of the term "numerology", or if you have some actual objections to the arguments SC presented. If it is the latter, why don't you present your objections first, and then invite SC or anyone else to respond? If it is the first, it is not very interesting, is it?
If that's all there were to it, quibbling over a label ("numerology"), then this thread would be pointless and silly; basically arguing semantics.

However, there are actual, identifiable errors in Mr. Crothers EU2015 presentation and also in his myriad articles. It is my intention to show that Crothers arguments are baseless, he doesn't understand the material, and he's just saying what he thinks the audience wants to hear.

Over the course of the next year (it will probably take that long, he has written 88 articles), I will present definitive proof that Stephen Crothers articles are rife with errors; a full peer review of his material. But don't expect it all in one day, this will be a long-drawn lengthy process.

To get things started, I would recommend that you read the comment section of Crothers' latest article (which by the way, is the same material he presented at EU2015). The comments are mostly mine, and his errors and misconceptions have been clearly identified:

To Have and Not to Have - the Paradox of Black Hole Mass -- Stephen Crothers
http://vixra.org/abs/1508.0106

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by comingfrom » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:09 pm

Numerology sounds like an appropriate label to me.
And it will only be controversial to you, if you are a believer in, and attached to, the theory of General Relativity, and look down upon Numeralogy.

In Numerology, the numbers in your birth date are used to analyse and prove your nature.
In General Relativity, constants and tensor values (numbers) are used to analyze and prove the nature of the Universe.

Both pseudo-sciences give us questionable answers, at best.

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by David » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:29 pm

comingfrom wrote:Numerology sounds like an appropriate label to me.
And it will only be controversial to you, if you are a believer in, and attached to, the theory of General Relativity, and look down upon Numeralogy.

In Numerology, the numbers in your birth date are used to analyse and prove your nature.
In General Relativity, constants and tensor values (numbers) are used to analyze and prove the nature of the Universe.
Thank you for sharing that altogether shallow and superficial analysis of modern physics; mere smoke of opinion par excellence!

However, it is not my intention to become entrenched in philosophical wrangling. My objections to Mr. Crothers’ papers and videos are strictly mathematical.

Stephen Crothers has made countless misleading and spurious claims that he has uncovered mathematical errors among Einstein’s field equations and their associated solutions. That completely shifts the debate away from the purely philosophical, and turns it into a cut-and-dried and easily verifiable mathematical dust-up.
comingfrom wrote: Both pseudo-sciences give us questionable answers, at best.
Within our solar system, General Relativity yields near perfect agreement with the observed elliptical orbits of the Planets, and their anomalous precessions; the only noticeable discrepancies arise when observing galaxies millions of light years distant.

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Bomb20
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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by Bomb20 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:35 am

Over the course of the next year (it will probably take that long, he has written 88 articles), I will present definitive proof that Stephen Crothers articles are rife with errors; a full peer review of his material.
Try, David, try! Offer something tangible! All earlier discussion is a waste of our time.

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by David » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:52 am

Bomb20 wrote: Offer something tangible!
Let me repeat it again, read the article and the comment section of the article:

To Have and Not to Have - the Paradox of Black Hole Mass -- Stephen Crothers
http://vixra.org/abs/1508.0106

I will write up a summary and post it here, but until then you have follow the link and read the comment section of the article -- the majority of the comments are mine.

I plan to go through each article one at a time, identify the errors, and write a summary for each article. There are a total of 88 articles, so it's not going to happen all in one day. Show some patience.

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by comingfrom » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:59 pm

Thank you, David.
Thank you for sharing that altogether shallow and superficial analysis of modern physics; mere smoke of opinion par excellence!
You are welcome.
And thank you for your kind words towards what I shared.

GR is over a hundred years old now. Hardly modern.
We've been out into space since then.
And seen much which shows us the theory is inadequate.
Isn't it?
However, it is not my intention to become entrenched in philosophical wrangling. My objections to Mr. Crothers’ papers and videos are strictly mathematical.
That black holes can exist in Mathematics, doesn't automatically mean that they can in physical reality.
Stephen Crothers has made countless misleading and spurious claims that he has uncovered mathematical errors among Einstein’s field equations and their associated solutions. That completely shifts the debate away from the purely philosophical, and turns it into a cut-and-dried and easily verifiable mathematical dust-up.
I think Crothers is saying the math is all well and good, but that it isn't describing physical reality correctly. It's not that the math errs, but that it has become divorced from reality.

A singularity is fine in math, but matter has volume.
And you can't just take it away because the math works.

They change the properties of matter, and they go against the fundamental laws of physics,
all because the math tells them.
Within our solar system, General Relativity yields near perfect agreement with the observed elliptical orbits of the Planets, and their anomalous precessions; the only noticeable discrepancies arise when observing galaxies millions of light years distant.
On this we seem to agree.

Within a certain scale, the math of Newton and Einsteinian GR does pretty good at predicting the observed orbits.
(Though plenty of other observations in the Solar System remain a mystery.)

But on the Galactic scale, the math ends up giving us improbable and weird answers.
Unfortunately, many are clinging to the math, saying it must be right,
even though it only tested right on a relatively small scale.
And even when they themselves say it fails at the galactic scale.

~~~~~~~~~`
Let me repeat it again, read the article and the comment section of the article:
I read it.

I think I understood what Corthers meant by, "a play on the words - 'outside a body' " first time I heard him express it.
But it appears to me, this is the error which the critics there are pointing to (and hoping to hang Crothers by).

Where is outside a body?
Or as the critic at that link says... "this coordinate is simply located at position 'r' outside some static distribution of mass in a spherically symmetric geometry.""

For this, let us suppose a Universe with a single mass body.
A single static spherical body, in an otherwise asymptotically flat Universe.
How far does one have to go away from the body to be outside of it's gravity field?
How far away before Ric=0?
How far, before the space-time curvature is perfectly flat again?

To me, this idea is even more absurd, when we take into consideration that the Universe is heavily populated with massive spherical bodies,
and much plasma in between.

In my opinion, this doesn't leave much room for any flat space-time.
Or, in my way of looking at it, there isn't a place in the Universe where no force field is active.
I will write up a summary and post it here, but until then you have follow the link and read the comment section of the article -- the majority of the comments are mine.

I plan to go through each article one at a time, identify the errors, and write a summary for each article. There are a total of 88 articles, so it's not going to happen all in one day. Show some patience.
Go hard.
I'll probably have a read.

Whether Crothers is right or wrong, he helped my understanding of GR (and the history of GR) better than anybody has been able to.
Maybe you will add to my understanding too.

Sincere best wishes
`Paul

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by noblackhole » Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:27 pm

David,

On vixra you lost all right of discussion due to your hostile and unscientific comments there. I hope you do not do the same here.

You have cited here my EU2015 presentation and my little article on vixra:

Crothers, S. J., To Have and Not to Have - the Paradox of Black Hole Mass, 12 August, 2015,
http://vixra.org/pdf/1508.0106v1.pdf

You have made a good choice of article, because it is very short and very simple, so that any person with say a high school education can easily understand it. In order to save everybody much time, I put to you the following simple questions for you to simply answer. Everybody however is welcome to answer them too, but since you David issued the challenge and seek to prove me wrong I expect you David to answer. A single word in answer to each question is all that is necessary. If you refuse to answer then I take it that you have in fact no real intention of discussion.

(a) Does Tuv = 0 in the equations Ruv = 0?
(b) Do Einstein and his followers asset that a material source for his gravitational field is present in the universe
described by Ruv = 0?
(c) Does Tuv = 0 in the equations Ruv = /\guv where /\ is the so-called ‘cosmological constant’?
(d) Is de Sitter’s empty universe a solution for Ruv = /\guv?

Stephen J. Crothers

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by David » Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:05 pm

Note: I was in the process of writing this when Crothers posted his response. But I will go ahead and post it anyway, and then go checkout what he had to say.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are three reasons why I chose this particular Stephen Crothers article.

First off, this article is Crothers’ latest offering; his most recent. This is what he is peddling right now; up-to-the-minute, so to speak.

Second, we got it on video. Crothers presented this very same material at the Electric Universe conference (EU2015). This is what he told the audience; there are eyewitnesses.

And finally, the errors found in this article are not confined to this article alone; they are commonplace. It’s the same mistake, again and again, in one article after another; an error Crothers has been repeating for nearly 10 years now.

Here are a few excerpts from his article:
Stephen Crothers wrote: Since Tμν is the matter term in Einstein’s field equations, setting Tμν = 0 removes all matter from them.
Wrong! The stress-energy tensor (Tμν) can vary in value from one location to the next. Setting it to zero does not “remove all matter”. Tμν is location dependent, in much the same way that temperature depends on the specific location.
Stephen Crothers wrote: However, the words ‘outside a body such as a star’ immediately reinstates the material source that was
initially removed mathematically by setting Tμν = 0. Einstein’s argument is a vicious circle and therefore invalid.
Wrong again! The “vicious circle” is just Crothers’ misconception. He doesn’t even realize that Tμν is location dependent; it can have different values at each and every point in space.

And as always, Mr. Crothers is more than welcome to come here and defend his own material.

To Have and Not to Have - the Paradox of Black Hole Mass – Stephen Crothers
http://vixra.org/abs/1508.0106

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by David » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:24 am

Mr. Crothers,

Welcome. I’m delighted to have you here.

I can’t answer your questions right now – it’s late and I need to hit the sack and work tomorrow. But the moment I get home I’ll jump all over it. So sit tight, and don’t go anywhere.

“Having been some days in preparation
A splendid time is guaranteed for all” -- John Lennon

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by querious » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:29 am

Mr. Crothers,
I'd love to get your take on Wal's "dipole gravity" idea.
Querious

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Re: Stephen Crothers’ Latest Numerology Presentation

Post by nick c » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:37 am

Just as a preemptive cautionary note to all the participants in this thread:
Everyone is expected to conduct themselves in a civil manner, ad hominem attacks and personal insults will not be tolerated.
The rule of thumb is to "attack the idea" not the person posting the idea.

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