67P, why erosion from the neck?

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67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby willendure » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:34 am

Can someone tell me, if the erosion is electrical, why would it occur preferentially around the neck? (If indeed that is the case).
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:12 am

Image


According to this ESA animation, the Axis of Rotation of 67P c-g seems to pass through the narrowed 'neck' of the comet,
(which is also the area with the most emission activity).


How does this spin axis align with solar and Jovian spins, (or their magnetic fields) ?


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15401&start=30
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:17 pm

If the animation of 67P's rotation is correct then the axis goes through the neck of 67P--directly at the poles. Assuming the space rock began as a chunk with no erosion, the erosion began at the poles and remained eating away at the poles until the comet began to assume a 2-lobed shape. Plasma/electricity tends to be a "polar"-centric phenomenon.

If you look at Enceladus, for example, the water jetting occurs at the south pole. Saturn's hexagon is at its north pole, planetary mag fields and ionospheres tend to align on a polar basis. This may shed some clues as to why the neck has been etched away.
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby ZenMonkeyNZ » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:57 pm

Nice mechanism hypothesis. Do the rotational poles roughly coincide with the magnetic poles of the comet (as on Earth)?
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:17 pm

ZenMonkeyNZ wrote:Nice mechanism hypothesis. Do the rotational poles roughly coincide with the magnetic poles of the comet (as on Earth)?


Without plasma data I would assume/infer the answer is yes. In my opinion it is the polar alignment of the rotational axis running perpendicular to the neck that accounts for the erosion. Whatever circuit that develops runs through the comet at its poles. Consider that the rocky core, the body of the comet, is merely the visible part of the coma. And the coma is basically an atmospheric envelope. Jupiter probably has the same structuring but much denser and much more massive. It would not surprise me were a plasma torus found at comet 67P. But are they looking for one? I don't think so, but years from now their data may reveal it.

Like a Jovian planet such as Neptune or Saturn, the coma is a complex structure of gases and plasma. And when you have a structure such as this--the coma--that becomes as large as Jupiter or even the Sun--incapable of being "bound" by gravity--then such a thing warrants further inquiry. Wouldn't you think that closely studying such a phenomenon could lead to some answers? But no. We see nothing of the sort coming from ESA. At least not yet. Rosetta will track 67P for a long time. I will wager that much of the data collected will continue to contradict their dirty snowball claims. It will be funny to watch them try to shoehorn their theory into the mounting contradictory data.
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:44 pm

viscount aero wrote:
In my opinion it is the polar alignment of the rotational axis running perpendicular to the neck that accounts for the erosion. Whatever circuit that develops runs through the comet at its poles.


That animation of 67P's Spin Axis was posted here several times, to give an idea of its relation to the dominant-ambient magnetic 'field' alignments, i.e. solar & jovian magnetic 'fields'. (re their observations of "magnetic singing and humming")

Yes, a "polar alignment...perpendicular to the neck" .

What is your picture of any coincident charge flows ?
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby Solar » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:12 pm

viscount aero wrote:It would not surprise me were a plasma torus found at comet 67P. But are they looking for one? I don't think so, but years from now their data may reveal it.

Like a Jovian planet such as Neptune or Saturn, the coma is a complex structure of gases and plasma. And when you have a structure such as this--the coma--that becomes as large as Jupiter or even the Sun--incapable of being "bound" by gravity--then such a thing warrants further inquiry. Wouldn't you think that closely studying such a phenomenon could lead to some answers? But no. We see nothing of the sort coming from ESA. At least not yet. Rosetta will track 67P for a long time. I will wager that much of the data collected will continue to contradict their dirty snowball claims. It will be funny to watch them try to shoehorn their theory into the mounting contradictory data.


And might I add painful. The public face of still emerging Comet Science is quite some distance from the science itself. As a result of the last few 5 (or so) comet encounters there are works involving plasma, electric, and magnetic fields associated to comets but they have to be dug out. Here are a few tidbits with an accompanying idea:

After all of this time on Mars the still occurring late night cleanings of the Rover’s solar panels is characterized as being due to "winds":

Dust Covered Rover 1
Cleaned Solar Arrays…

What is not being said is that the “winds” characterization carries charged specie with it and that an accompanying electric field can cause charged dust to jitter, bounce, move around, and be lifted. The more I looked at photos of the emissions from the neck of 67P considering fine dust from a rock in an electrical environment the memory of electric field “dust lifting” with the Mars Rover and on the moon came to mind. Look at this 2013 doc regarding 67P no less:

Charged nanodust from comets: an application to comet 67P/CG: KK. Szego(1), A. Juhasz (1) and Z. Bebesi (1)

Not to burden with links but here are two more on electric field and “dust lifting”:

Renno et al. [8] show theoretical and observational evidence that martian dusty phenomena are electrically active. This has important implications for dust lifting and atmospheric chemistry [9, 10, 11]. 

The large electric fields produced by dusty phenomena can substantially reduce the critical wind speed necessary to produce saltation, and even directly lift dust particles from the surface [9]. Saltation is the process by which sand particles are forced to move by the wind and bounce on the surface, ejecting the smaller, harder to lift, dust particles into the air [12]. Electric fields might facilitate saltation and dust lifting on Earth, Mars and elsewhere. Both field measurements [2] and theory [13], [14] show that electric field strengths increase rapidly towards the surface [9] - A miniature sensor for electrical field measurements in dusty planetary atmospheres N O Renno1, 2, J F Kok3, H Kirkham4, and S Rogacki1


Large electric fields have been measured in terrestrial dusty phenomena and are predicted to occur on Mars. We review the charging mechanisms that produce these electric fields and discuss the implications of electrical activity on dust lifting and atmospheric chemistry. In addition, we review the ideas that support the occurrence of electric discharges on Mars. Finally, we discuss the evidence that electrostatics is responsible for dust transport on the Moon and asteroids. Electrical Activity and Dust Lifting on Earth, Mars and Beyond: Renno et al


Its possible that when a comet as dust laden as 67P crosses regions of different electric field intensity within the heliosphere they might undergo a larger scale version of an electrostatic cleaning like the Mars Rover - but comet theorist will call such events a “flare up” and "outgassing". These interpretive characterizations will probably perish with the idea that spawned them in favor of ionization, acceleration, discharge, electrostatics, electrodynamics and like simply because of evidence from in situ data. Comet 67P also has its version of "hot spots". I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out years from now that those "hot spots" correlate with "beams".

The previous idea about comets had been carried so far that even planetary activities like that of the "jets of water ice" from Enceladus and its oscillating nature will have different implications. Nonetheless,media announcements and summaries are not really reflective of the science occurring behind the scenes. There are efforts at studying comets in terms of plasma electrodynamics but those efforts are usually overshadowed through such venues.

'Electrostatic cleaning' might not be limited to just the Mars Rover.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:28 pm

Solar wrote:
viscount aero wrote:It would not surprise me were a plasma torus found at comet 67P. But are they looking for one? I don't think so, but years from now their data may reveal it.

Like a Jovian planet such as Neptune or Saturn, the coma is a complex structure of gases and plasma. And when you have a structure such as this--the coma--that becomes as large as Jupiter or even the Sun--incapable of being "bound" by gravity--then such a thing warrants further inquiry. Wouldn't you think that closely studying such a phenomenon could lead to some answers? But no. We see nothing of the sort coming from ESA. At least not yet. Rosetta will track 67P for a long time. I will wager that much of the data collected will continue to contradict their dirty snowball claims. It will be funny to watch them try to shoehorn their theory into the mounting contradictory data.


And might I add painful. The public face of still emerging Comet Science is quite some distance from the science itself. As a result of the last few 5 (or so) comet encounters there are works involving plasma, electric, and magnetic fields associated to comets but they have to be dug out. Here are a few tidbits with an accompanying idea:

After all of this time on Mars the still occurring late night cleanings of the Rover’s solar panels is characterized as being due to "winds":

Dust Covered Rover 1
Cleaned Solar Arrays…

What is not being said is that the “winds” characterization carries charged specie with it and that an accompanying electric field can cause charged dust to jitter, bounce, move around, and be lifted. The more I looked at photos of the emissions from the neck of 67P considering fine dust from a rock in an electrical environment the memory of electric field “dust lifting” with the Mars Rover and on the moon came to mind. Look at this 2013 doc regarding 67P no less:

Charged nanodust from comets: an application to comet 67P/CG: KK. Szego(1), A. Juhasz (1) and Z. Bebesi (1)

Not to burden with links but here are two more on electric field and “dust lifting”:

Renno et al. [8] show theoretical and observational evidence that martian dusty phenomena are electrically active. This has important implications for dust lifting and atmospheric chemistry [9, 10, 11]. 

The large electric fields produced by dusty phenomena can substantially reduce the critical wind speed necessary to produce saltation, and even directly lift dust particles from the surface [9]. Saltation is the process by which sand particles are forced to move by the wind and bounce on the surface, ejecting the smaller, harder to lift, dust particles into the air [12]. Electric fields might facilitate saltation and dust lifting on Earth, Mars and elsewhere. Both field measurements [2] and theory [13], [14] show that electric field strengths increase rapidly towards the surface [9] - A miniature sensor for electrical field measurements in dusty planetary atmospheres N O Renno1, 2, J F Kok3, H Kirkham4, and S Rogacki1


Large electric fields have been measured in terrestrial dusty phenomena and are predicted to occur on Mars. We review the charging mechanisms that produce these electric fields and discuss the implications of electrical activity on dust lifting and atmospheric chemistry. In addition, we review the ideas that support the occurrence of electric discharges on Mars. Finally, we discuss the evidence that electrostatics is responsible for dust transport on the Moon and asteroids. Electrical Activity and Dust Lifting on Earth, Mars and Beyond: Renno et al


Its possible that when a comet as dust laden as 67P crosses regions of different electric field intensity within the heliosphere they might undergo a larger scale version of an electrostatic cleaning like the Mars Rover - but comet theorist will call such events a “flare up” and "outgassing". These interpretive characterizations will probably perish with the idea that spawned them in favor of ionization, acceleration, discharge, electrostatics, electrodynamics and like simply because of evidence from in situ data. Comet 67P also has its version of "hot spots". I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out years from now that those "hot spots" correlate with "beams".

The previous idea about comets had been carried so far that even planetary activities like that of the "jets of water ice" from Enceladus and its oscillating nature will have different implications. Nonetheless,media announcements and summaries are not really reflective of the science occurring behind the scenes. There are efforts at studying comets in terms of plasma electrodynamics but those efforts are usually overshadowed through such venues.

'Electrostatic cleaning' might not be limited to just the Mars Rover.


Great post, Solar, thank you.

Such papers as "Charged nanodust from comets: an application to comet 67P/CG" are not at all given a public voice and certainly not in university curricula nor given to the ESA/Rosetta team. And if any of them have read it they have done so privately, to withhold their opinions from the public. Nothing of this sort is ever mentioned in ESA press releases. The phenomena you cite in your post, too, may involve intimately in the sand dune structures on the surface.
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:33 pm

seasmith wrote:
Yes, a "polar alignment...perpendicular to the neck" .

What is your picture of any coincident charge flows ?


I would need to ascertain how 67P is actually moving towards the Sun. Is it tumbling towards the Sun? Or is it traveling more like Earth, with its axis tilted a few degrees, "upright" to the Sun?
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby Dotini » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:23 pm

willendure wrote:Can someone tell me, if the erosion is electrical, why would it occur preferentially around the neck? (If indeed that is the case).


I have been looking for temperature profiles of 67P, and see they have a quite range. Hard to tell from the data I have seen, but it may be that the highest temperatures - close to the melting point of ice - are to be found at the neck. It may be that the comet is yielding negatively charged ions to the solar wind via the jets discharging from the "polar" neck, leaving behind the "sand dunes" lacking the molecular "glue" necessary to maintain geological structure.
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:58 pm

viscount aero wrote:
seasmith wrote:
Yes, a "polar alignment...perpendicular to the neck" .

What is your picture of any coincident charge flows ?


I would need to ascertain how 67P is actually moving towards the Sun. Is it tumbling towards the Sun? Or is it traveling more like Earth, with its axis tilted a few degrees, "upright" to the Sun?


I found the answer to 67P's axial tilt:

"67P's Axis of Spin has been reported to be tilted ≈ 26˚, with respect to its orbital plane about the sun, similar to that of Earth's,..."
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:31 pm

And tilts at another angle, with respect to the solar ecliptic.
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:38 pm

seasmith wrote:And tilts at another angle, with respect to the solar ecliptic.

Oh yes, that's right. It's orbit is eccentric and highly inclined. Regardless, a comet, in my opinion, can be thought of as a "perpetual meteoroid" as it "enters" the midst of the Sun's atmosphere. This ionizes the "meteor" and we see the spectacular train behind the nucleus. Whereas on Earth a meteor burns up as it enters the atmosphere, a comet simply continues around the Sun and goes back out to return again someday to do it all over again. That is what a comet is.

A comet's ionization occurs due to its friction and chemical interaction with the solar plasma. In this case the poles of the comet are where this interaction localizes on the surface. The neck is the magnetic polar region of the coma. Matter sputters off in greater amounts at the poles which is why the neck developed. You can say that the neck represents the magnetic/electrical envelope of localization.

However you can see that plasma etching is over the entire surface of the comet, with cliffs, terraces, and gouged out "craters" that represent sites of "catastrophe." As it becomes an electrode in a circuit, it becomes "burned" and hence blackened. It could even be regarded as a giant piece of slag. Comets, however beautiful to behold, may be pieces of waste or slag boiled off of tremendous catastrophic events at very high temperatures. Stardust/Wild 2 data alludes to this heritage. Comets are born in the fires of hell.

Possible origins of comets:

slag (slæɡ)
n
1. (Metallurgy) Also called: cinder the fused material formed during the smelting or refining of metals by combining the flux with gangue, impurities in the metal, etc. It usually consists of a mixture of silicates with calcium, phosphorus, sulphur--the more or less completely fused and vitrified matter separated during the reduction of a metal from its ore.
2. (Geological Science) a mass of rough fragments of pyroclastic rock and cinders derived from a volcanic eruption; scoria
3. (Mining & Quarrying) a mixture of shale, clay, coal dust, and other mineral waste produced during coal mining
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby willendure » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:00 am

viscount aero wrote:If the animation of 67P's rotation is correct then the axis goes through the neck of 67P--directly at the poles. Assuming the space rock began as a chunk with no erosion, the erosion began at the poles and remained eating away at the poles until the comet began to assume a 2-lobed shape. Plasma/electricity tends to be a "polar"-centric phenomenon.


This is a testable hypothesis; the other comets we have seen with a 2-lobed structure, do they also have their poles oriented perpendicular to the neck?
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Re: 67P, why erosion from the neck?

Unread postby viscount aero » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:46 am

willendure wrote:
viscount aero wrote:If the animation of 67P's rotation is correct then the axis goes through the neck of 67P--directly at the poles. Assuming the space rock began as a chunk with no erosion, the erosion began at the poles and remained eating away at the poles until the comet began to assume a 2-lobed shape. Plasma/electricity tends to be a "polar"-centric phenomenon.


This is a testable hypothesis; the other comets we have seen with a 2-lobed structure, do they also have their poles oriented perpendicular to the neck?


Thank you and good question. That would require going through all the available treatises/write-ups detailing prior cometary missions as far back as Giotto/Haley. Next would be to mimic, in the lab, an axially-revolving cometary body made of Olivine (Silicon-based igneous rock) and pyroxene--the major constituents of the Stardust samples--and then subject it to an electrolytic/electrical environment of a virtual anode and cathode (the anode being the electrode that accepts current) whereby a magnetic north pole is created on the laboratory stand-in comet.

To add, tonight I began formulating the basis for a paper that cites corrosion as the mechanism for cometary erosion. The comet is clearly being eaten away. The peanut/duck shape is a common erosional state. I assume from this that younger comets will not yet show this feature (such as Tempel 1/Deep Impact).

Less eroded comets may indicate newer debris origins as they were most likely all born in a hellish/molten state of catastrophe as evidenced by Stardust/Wild 2. Or the less eroded comets may indicate that they could be older but have only been recently encountering the Sun (assuming comets are junk yard debris that the Sun attracted on its ballistic travels through the galaxy arm). Age is then unknown. But erosional development is known.

This is a giant topic ;)
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