Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

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Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby nick c » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 am

Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab
Interesting. They claim to have made a miniature Sun in the lab but the experiment does not derive its power from nuclear fusion but rather:
Powerful magnets confine the plasma, and an electrical current causes the miniature sun to spin a bit like the real one.
Maybe this provides a clue from which they can learn what powers the Sun?
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:03 pm

They are almost recreating Birkeland's experiments.
What a progress we have made in 100 years.
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Osmosis » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:27 pm

Notice that they are careful to include magic words like fusion and helium in the article. :D
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Solar » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:44 am

University of Wisconsin-Madison has a Plasma Physics Laboratory. It *looks like* they may have converted the previous Madison Plasma Dynamo into Big Red:

Madison Plasma Dynamo Move-In 2012

Big Red Ball (BRB)

This experiment is more so related to the Archimedean spiral (Parker Spiral) per the abstract. Following up on a few links there appears to be a brief related video posted on twitter:

A Laboratory model for the Parker Spiral and magnetized Stellar Winds

If you click on the linked text provided just above the video it takes the reader directly to their paper of the same name here:

A Laboratory model for the Parker Spiral and magnetized stellar winds

This is an experiment in Plasma Electrodynamics, in a Plasma Physics Laboratory, reproducing *some* aspects of stellar plasma tori and/or disc dynamics that might be applicable to Plasma Astrophysics. Minus a bit of the "magnetic reconnect" & "dynamo" language it's exactly what "electrical theorist" are looking for.

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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:56 pm

In much literature they seem to think that "magnetized plasma" can sustain itself.

I wonder if the astronomers know that the currents in a magnetic field
in fact reduce the present magnetic field?
The rotation is exactly opposite to what they seem to think.
That is due to the laws of Electromagnetism and the conservation of energy.
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Roshi » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:09 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrella
Brunberg and Dattner in Sweden, around 1950, used a terrella to simulate trajectories of particles in the Earth's field. Podgorny in the Soviet Union, around 1972, built terrellas at which a flow of plasma was directed, simulating the solar wind. Hafiz-Ur Rahman at the University of California, Riverside conducted more realistic experiments around 1990. All such experiments are difficult to interpret, and are never able to scale all the parameters needed to properly simulate the Earth's magnetosphere, which is why such experiments have now been completely replaced by computer simulations.

Recently the Terrella has been further developed by a team of physicists at the Institute of Planetology and Astrophysics in Grenoble, France to create the Planeterrella which uses two magnetised spheres which can be manipulated to recreate several different auroral phenomena


They should add: "such forbidden experiments have been replaced by computer simulations".

In the dark ages they used a real physical ball, with a real magnetic field - that had all known (and unknown) properties that the Universe (or God) had given it. But it was "too difficult to interpret" - meaning "it did something that was not in the manual". Not good, it's better to program it to obtain what's written in the manual, that's the only path to a Nobel prize, and the only way to maintain a career.
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby neilwilkes » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:38 am

Roshi wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrella
Brunberg and Dattner in Sweden, around 1950, used a terrella to simulate trajectories of particles in the Earth's field. Podgorny in the Soviet Union, around 1972, built terrellas at which a flow of plasma was directed, simulating the solar wind. Hafiz-Ur Rahman at the University of California, Riverside conducted more realistic experiments around 1990. All such experiments are difficult to interpret, and are never able to scale all the parameters needed to properly simulate the Earth's magnetosphere, which is why such experiments have now been completely replaced by computer simulations.

Recently the Terrella has been further developed by a team of physicists at the Institute of Planetology and Astrophysics in Grenoble, France to create the Planeterrella which uses two magnetised spheres which can be manipulated to recreate several different auroral phenomena


They should add: "such forbidden experiments have been replaced by computer simulations".

In the dark ages they used a real physical ball, with a real magnetic field - that had all known (and unknown) properties that the Universe (or God) had given it. But it was "too difficult to interpret" - meaning "it did something that was not in the manual". Not good, it's better to program it to obtain what's written in the manual, that's the only path to a Nobel prize, and the only way to maintain a career.


Also, please don't forget that all computer simulations are just that - simulations, and as such will be subject to any or all of the following:
1 - Incorrect assumptions
2 - Bad code
3 - Poor implementation
Actual laboratory experiments - even if flawed - are far superior to a set of assumptions turned into a computer program that will inevitably get tweaked until it delivers the required result,. which may have very little - if anything - to do with reality.
You will never get a man to understand something his salary depends on him not understanding.
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Electrodynamic » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:02 am

neilwilkes
Also, please don't forget that all computer simulations are just that - simulations, and as such will be subject to any or all of the following:
1 - Incorrect assumptions
2 - Bad code
3 - Poor implementation
Actual laboratory experiments - even if flawed - are far superior to a set of assumptions turned into a computer program that will inevitably get tweaked until it delivers the required result,. which may have very little - if anything - to do with reality.


I would agree and I used to do a fair amount of work with solidworks CFD or flow. It's pretty cool and I set up a very basic wind turbine model unfortunately the basic rendering it going to take 274 years on my laptop... I'm still waiting.

There is also logic and reason to contend with, that is I would set up a simulation with predefined variables and code to try to find an unknown solution?. Wait a minute... by using predefined variables and restrictive code I have basically predefined what the solution must be. Thus it was never a real simulation of nature it was a biased way to produce or reinforce my version of what I thought should happen. Unfortunately real life gets messy and complicated and seldom works out as we planned.

It's like saying I want to do a simulation or experiment on what happens when stuff hits a wall. Then I give you some apples and only apples to throw and then conclude everything else must act the same as apples. That's not science that's called cherry picking by any other name.
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Sci-Phy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:57 pm

There is major problem with simulation.
It does not matter if assumption is right or wrong.
The theory simulated using itself!
If my theory is 2+2=5, then I could easily simulate it using this theory and result will be exactly what the theory claimed.

Cheers.
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:53 am

Sci-Phy wrote: 2+2=5


Aha, the famous dark number!

Image
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:24 am

Roshi wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrella
Brunberg and Dattner in Sweden, around 1950, used a terrella to simulate trajectories of particles in the Earth's field. Podgorny in the Soviet Union, around 1972, built terrellas at which a flow of plasma was directed, simulating the solar wind. Hafiz-Ur Rahman at the University of California, Riverside conducted more realistic experiments around 1990. All such experiments are difficult to interpret, and are never able to scale all the parameters needed to properly simulate the Earth's magnetosphere, which is why such experiments have now been completely replaced by computer simulations.

Recently the Terrella has been further developed by a team of physicists at the Institute of Planetology and Astrophysics in Grenoble, France to create the Planeterrella which uses two magnetised spheres which can be manipulated to recreate several different auroral phenomena


They should add: "such forbidden experiments have been replaced by computer simulations".

In the dark ages they used a real physical ball, with a real magnetic field - that had all known (and unknown) properties that the Universe (or God) had given it. But it was "too difficult to interpret" - meaning "it did something that was not in the manual". Not good, it's better to program it to obtain what's written in the manual, that's the only path to a Nobel prize, and the only way to maintain a career.


Funny how their models can't scale properly or sustain an aurora for any period of time in a lab, but EU/PC models work perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m58-CfVrsN4
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Re: Scientists Create Miniature Sun In Lab

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:28 am

neilwilkes wrote:
Roshi wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrella
Brunberg and Dattner in Sweden, around 1950, used a terrella to simulate trajectories of particles in the Earth's field. Podgorny in the Soviet Union, around 1972, built terrellas at which a flow of plasma was directed, simulating the solar wind. Hafiz-Ur Rahman at the University of California, Riverside conducted more realistic experiments around 1990. All such experiments are difficult to interpret, and are never able to scale all the parameters needed to properly simulate the Earth's magnetosphere, which is why such experiments have now been completely replaced by computer simulations.

Recently the Terrella has been further developed by a team of physicists at the Institute of Planetology and Astrophysics in Grenoble, France to create the Planeterrella which uses two magnetised spheres which can be manipulated to recreate several different auroral phenomena


They should add: "such forbidden experiments have been replaced by computer simulations".

In the dark ages they used a real physical ball, with a real magnetic field - that had all known (and unknown) properties that the Universe (or God) had given it. But it was "too difficult to interpret" - meaning "it did something that was not in the manual". Not good, it's better to program it to obtain what's written in the manual, that's the only path to a Nobel prize, and the only way to maintain a career.


Also, please don't forget that all computer simulations are just that - simulations, and as such will be subject to any or all of the following:
1 - Incorrect assumptions
2 - Bad code
3 - Poor implementation
Actual laboratory experiments - even if flawed - are far superior to a set of assumptions turned into a computer program that will inevitably get tweaked until it delivers the required result,. which may have very little - if anything - to do with reality.


Their models have nothing to do with reality which is why they have to create "sim worlds" and rely on computer simulations. As we all know, garbage in = garbage out. Since none of their nonsense has anything to do with reality, their only recourse is to "make up" a magical make-believe computer sim where they can redefine physics to suit themselves.
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