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Thunderbolts Forum • View topic - MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

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MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby davesmith_au » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:34 am

A new video linked from our Multimedia section:

ClimateGate Who's Who ~ by MagicJavaTV

ClimateGate, as it's come to be known, is a very difficult issue to deal with, not because of the nature of the information, but due to the way in which it was obtained. The long and the short of it is, someone hacked into a server containing certain documents and emails and has now made the contents thereof public.

The video linked here contains short snippets of those emails and documents in an attempt to display the nature of the scientists and the science used to justify claims of Anthropogenic (man-made) Global Warming (AGW).

"Those who fail to think outside the square will always be confined within it" - Dave Smith 2007
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby magicjava » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:13 am

I just wanted to stop by and say thanks to the Thunderbolts crew for helping me get the word out on the ClimateGate scandal. It's very much appreciated. :)
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But who's the hoaxer?

Unread postby jpt » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:19 pm

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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby davesmith_au » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:10 pm

jpt you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

For example, the "trick" was used in the context of "to hide the decline" and as such is not as innocent as you would make out.

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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby magicjava » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:35 am

jpt, you raised several issues. I'll do my best to answer them.

On Getting Scientific Information From the Huffington Post
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll offer the suggestion that The Huffington Post is a poor place to turn for scientific information. If you want to judge the quotes I've selected, you can download the zip file and then use the ClimateGate Who's Who References video I've provided to look up each quote. A link to the Who's Who References video is at the end of the Who's Who video. The zip file can be found here: http://www.filedropper.com/foi2009

My Quotes of Mr. Trenberth
--------------------------------
As to the specific quote you mention from the Huffington Post, I included the part where Mr. Trenberth says he believes the difference between the models and the data is due to bad data. I even highlighted that part in the video. But that's a _belief_ on Mr. Trenberth's part. Not a fact. He _believes_ more data would validate the theory. But you don't build science around facts that aren't there.

On the Hacked Files Being Fakes or Edited
-------------------------------------------------
There is no known case of editing the files or evidence the files were fakes. Prof Jones, who has stepped down from his position, even admitted the files were genuine.

Man-made CO2 Global Warming
-------------------------------------
As to the theory of CO2 Global Warming, it depends critically on water vapor causing the majority of the warming in a feedback loop. Without that extra heat coming from water vapor, the theory of man-made CO2 causing warming collapses completely. This is because CO2 is both a trace gas that is in the atmosphere in very small amounts and is also a fairly weak greenhouse gas. CO2 alone is not enough to cause the warming being claimed. Water vapor is _required_ to boost the effects of CO2. What I'm telling you here in this paragraph is mainstream AGW theory.

The problem with that is our understanding of cloud formation is no where near complete. If a small percentage of the water vapor from CO2 warming forms clouds then we will get cooling due to the clouds reflecting sunlight into space, not warming. (And, btw, the hacked e-mails also show the scientists don't know if this is happening or not, and therefore don't know if their own theory of CO2 warming actually works.)

Relationship of ClimateGate to Thunderbolts
-----------------------------------------------------
Finally, I absolutely believe what's happening with ClimateGate is related to what the folks here at ThunderBolts are doing. It's one thing to claim on your website that science isn't being done properly and the mainstream media is not reporting it. It's quite another to see it unfold before your very eyes. And if you don't think that's what's happening then I'll once again encourage you to download those hacked files and read them for yourself.
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby solrey » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:12 am

“Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
Nikola Tesla
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby Anaconda » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:24 pm

Regarding jpt:

Obviously, jpt has not been reading the forum and the other Electric Universe websites as he would have known that it is a longstanding position of Electric Universe theorists that AGW is a problematic hypothesis.

jpt's statements are the usual talking points in defense of the indefensible AGW e-mail, computer program, and peer-reviewed journal scandal.

This is serious business (AGW proponents know their ideology has taken a serious hit, if not a fatal one), so the AGW proponents have fanned out to cover all the bases possible. Most likely jpt saw this website on some search engine as hosting this particlular YouTube video.

His claims are laughable and demonstratably false upon examination of the record.

But that doesn't stop them from pushing their defense, hoping to salvage people only vaguely aware of the scandal and on the fence (hoping to push them back into the AGW camp).

That jpt would make such claims in a forum so familiar with academic skulduggery suggests they are desperate in their attempt to limit the damage.

The AGW messengers are just as corrupt as the AGW leaders (or horribly brainwashed).

Post script:

The serious corporate money has already left the station and bet on AGW mostly to curry favor and hatch carbon trading credit schemes (to their liking) that would make Enron green with envy. Interestingly enough, even the oil companies have contributed more to AGW coffers than to sceptics (they bet wrong on the science & politics).

Don't kid yourself, this has been a major spanner in the works for many elites in corporate America and elsewhere in the world (can you spell insider trading and "sweet" deals for the well connected).
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby Asgard » Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:02 pm

i find it funny that those who would dismiss the entire case against AGW on the premise that some of those making the argument are supposedly in the employ of the petroleum industry have completely overlooked the fact that numerous CO2 alarmists are obvious shills for the nuclear and GM/biotech industries. this is their agendas greatest failing: all of the solutions(geo-engineering, cap-and-trade, etc.) they have to offer to solve the dilemna are more potentially damaging than what might result from taking no action at all.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE government’s chief scientific adviser on climate change has proposed a quadrupling of Britain’s nuclear power generation to cut greenhouse-gas emissions.

Professor David MacKay believes nuclear power could be the only way Britain can meet its soaring demand for electricity while keeping emissions under control.

He has calculated that renewable energy sources such as wind and tidal power will never provide more than a fraction of Britain’s electricity needs. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 860181.ece

Plans to fast-track a new generation of nuclear power stations are set to be unveiled tomorrow by the Government.

Energy and Climate Change Secretary Ed Miliband will announce a series of national policy statements which will include a list of sites deemed suitable for new nuclear developments.

Under changes to the planning laws, the Infrastructure Planning Commission (IPC) will be able to speed through the proposals for new schemes if it decides they fit in with the policy statements.

That would contrast with examples such as the six-year struggle to steer the Sizewell B power station through the planning process, and is likely to encourage foreign firms such as E.ON, RWE npower and EDF to produce a new fleet of UK power stations that could be up and running by 2017.

Alongside nuclear power, the Government will issue draft policy statements setting out the national need for new energy infrastructure including renewables, fossil fuels, gas and infrastructure, as well as an overarching energy statement.

Green groups expressed dismay at the prospect of new nuclear power and warned the Government could be open to legal challenge if the statements do not properly consider climate change.

They have also raised concerns that people will not be able to influence decisions on major projects because schemes covered by the statements will not be subject to public inquiry. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 17222.html

The government is poised to allow nuclear power generators to use ordinary landfill sites for dumping "hundreds of thousands of tons" of waste in an attempt to reduce the £73bn cost of decommissioning old reactors.

The move has triggered a swath of applications around the country from big corporations trying to cash in on this potential new business, but has infuriated local councils and campaign groups. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... ill-threat

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two U.S. Senators on Monday unveiled bipartisan legislation aimed at doubling nuclear power in 20 years and increasing funding for research into low carbon sources of energy.

Sponsored by Tennessee Republican Lamar Alexander and Virginia Democrat Jim Webb, the bill would provide $100 billion in loan guarantees for carbon-free electricity projects, adding to the existing $47 billion loan guarantee program. http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/11/ ... .html?_r=3

FRANKFURT - Germany's nuclear power policy of keeping old reactors open longer to bridge the gap to greener energy may also leave the door open to eventually break a major electoral taboo -- new atomic power plants.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's new center-right government last week kept nuclear energy alive but stressed that would only be until renewable energies are fully viable. Popular opposition to nuclear is strong and visceral.

A total of 17 reactors had faced closure in the coming decade but can now expect a new lease of life. http://planetark.org/wen/55358

Nuclear energy is seen by some countries as an effective way to keep up electricity supplies while cutting emissions of climate warming gases from burning fossil fuels.

Lingering concerns over nuclear safety, waste and costs have limited the sector's growth in western Europe but several central and eastern European countries are keen to build them as a way of reducing their reliance on imported fuels.

Below are the nuclear plants being built or planned across Europe: http://planetark.org/wen/55368

-------------------------------------------------------------

Research to develop genetically modified crops must be stepped up as part of a £2bn "grand challenge" to avoid future food shortages, an influential panel of scientists said yesterday. In its report, the Royal Society said that GM techniques would be needed to boost yields and help crops survive harsher climates, as the global population rises and global warming worsens. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... earch-food

GM crops have a role to play in preventing mass starvation across the world caused by a combination of climate change and rapid population growth, a senior government scientist said yesterday.

Professor Robert Watson, the chief scientific adviser at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra), called for UK trials of GM foods, arguing that the Government needs to be more open with the public about the risks and benefits of genetically modified foods.

"Over the next 20 to 50 years, the population is going to increase from 6.5 to 9 billion. There will be more extreme weather, more demand for food, meat, and water, a changing climate: it is a very challenging situation, which, if we don't deal with it, could become a nightmare scenario," said Professor Watson. "We have to look at all the technologies, policies and practices, all forms of bio-tech, including GM." http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 23219.html

Al Gore has faced criticism for talking up climate change without offering answers. Does his new book remedy that?

...I have the feeling that Gore judged (correctly) that, despite the high profile of the issue in recent years, a high level of public confusion and ignorance still prevails.

The material in the book covers all the basics, but also takes the reader into some of the more nuanced debates that lie behind the headlines that increasingly bombard us on this sprawling subject.

Although there is still a rump of denial about the reality of human-induced climate change, this book reflects the shift in the debate in recent years towards what we do about the problem, rather than whether we have one. That said, and although we have the technologies and information needed to make change, few of the choices are straightforward, and many are still contested. But because it lays out the issues clearly and in some depth, I expect this book to be influential in shaping the policies that we choose.
Gore presents his judgments on where the right choices lie. For example, he backs genetically modified crops as a way of boosting the productivity of biofuels, while casting doubt about the viability of carbon capture and storage technology (CCS). I would present the opposite case, however, putting hope in CCS while expressing continuing doubt about the potential for genetic modification. Yet I do agree with Gore�s scepticism about the role of nuclear power.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens ... 08006.html
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:01 pm

The originator of the CO2 global warming proposal, Roger Revelle, changed his mind before he died. Al Gore was one of his students.

http://www.kickthemallout.com/article.p ... eory_Wrong

John Coleman, founder of The Weather Channel, has been blasting Gore for a few years now, and there are lots of videos out there if you do a search.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe= ... CEoQ1QIoBA

The problem seems to be that the MSM are all in collusion to not air/print the opposing beliefs.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:01 am

Hi Asgard,
Excellent post. I've been banging on about the nuclear power angle for several years. No one listens to me as I don't wear a shirt and tie and I'm not on the TV.
P.S. I'll be emailing your links to some of my right-on, pc, friends. :twisted: :lol:
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but people delight in complexity.
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby Asgard » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:29 pm

Gary N. yes, i just learned about that recently and i couldn't help but laugh because in 'An Inconvenient Truth' Al Gore practically deified the man but he made absolutely no mention of his later actions. only knowing Gore's characterization of Revelle i thought he must have been just another deceiver but when i found out about the rest of the story i felt a rare sense of reassurance.

and thanks, Grey Cloud. i'd been noticing that for a little while but the full scope of it only struck me as they recently intensified their rhetoric. it really goes to show the lack of critical thinking most people have on these matters.
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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby mharratsc » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:03 pm

I had put together quite a long-winded and opinionated piece corrolary to this discussion, but my editor (the Universe), ganked it on me by having my login expire!

Everyone's a critic... :P

I'll briefly summarise it tho! :D

CO2 isn't the problem the government's have made it out to be. I think it's just a ruse that they are using to get the world population behind their idea of changing the foundation of the world economy from oil (which they don't control) to something else (which they think they might be able to control!) I dunno how it is in other countries, but re-tooling the economy in the U.S. stands to make for quite a few jobs and open the doors to a whole new breed of entrepeneurs.

It could be a very good thing... except for that 'carbon credit' crap. However, I don't see the carbon credits being what they think it will be for them. Those pieces of fluff won't have any more value than the junk bonds that almost sunk the insurance industry back in the 80's. Or the recent bubble pop of over-inflated real estate values.

The big thing, I think, is that government's are getting very concerned that there are now more corporations on the Top 100 Economic Entities List than there are governments now- 51:49 in favor of the Corps! *shudder*

Corporations are now big enough to block governmental investments, for crying out loud! That is power with no responsibility to any constituents (other than Wall Street, and they're just Avatars of Greed without limit). That is what prompted this big sham, in my humble opinion. The scientists were just on the payroll. The governments of the world are simply scared, in my opinion, and this is how they reacted in desperation. Do I think it justifies the dishonesty?

Heck no.

Do I think it is moral? Ethical?

Well... that gets a bit trickier, doesn't it? Is the despoiling of the only home we have (Earth) moral?? Ethical?? When you consider what shape this planet will be in if we continue on as we have, blithely ignoring what all the environmentalists have been saying all these years (kudos to you, Sol!), and uncaringly turn to our sons and daughters and say "Here's the keys, kid! She's all yours now..."

I speak for no one else nor wish to preach, but I myself cannot face that prospect without shame and a complete loss of my dignity. :oops: I feel the need to do something about it, and right now it seems to me that the ecological facade over their attempt to re-create the global economy in a way that they can control is the lesser of two evils, pure and simple. I'd love to see a better solution, but currently I don't see anything else on the table that is anywhere near fruition, and the ecology of our planet is not going to 'get better' simply because the planet starts to cool off of it's own accord!

I do not believe that CO2 is our pressing concern- I think this planet was a CO2 nightmare that our plant life originally adapted to and created the balanced carbon-oxygen environment that saw the rise of fauna on this world. (No, I can't prove that but I think it's a neat idea and well within the bounds of intelligent conjecture!) I think that our most pressing environmental concern is the "re-greening" of our planet- to re-plant and re-grow the oxygen-producing life on this planet that can absorb all that carbon and scrub our air clean again.

Warming? That's beyond our control, and it will balance itself out if it hasn't already begun. What WE need to do is balance our our eco-systems again! That is the direction that the world needs to turn it's involvement!

But I digress (again, sorry). Still- this farce that the world's governments have created has done something good- it shook a lot of the world population out of it's self-centered obsessing and made people blink their eyes and realize that there was so much more going on in the world than what they were allowing themselves to perceive. Heck- it may have even become a rallying cry for some unification of ideals amongst diverse peoples... who knows?

I think there is a silver lining of the dark cloud to this whole fiasco. I think (regardless of the intent) that this will serve as a wake-up call to an entire living generation of humanity... maybe take their blinders off that they were born and raised with, and make them see the intrinsic spiritual and psychological value of reciprocating some service back to the planet that has served us as our homeworld.

With every tree I have planted, with every stream and lakeshore cleanup project I have participated in, I have felt *good* inside; it makes ME feel healthy... there is something natural about taking care of the world!

I want to leave a legacy of good stewardship and love of this old Earth, and a sense of brotherhood and love for her diverse peoples, for my children. I think that there are much worse legacies to leave behind than a desire to be of service to the world that sustains us, and the peoples who share in that task. :)

With due consideration and respect to any and all those holding opinions different than my own, and best wishes for a joyous New Year,

Mike H.

P.S.- Did I say brief summary? o.O
Mike H.

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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby jjohnson » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:12 am

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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby allynh » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:10 pm

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Re: MM - ClimateGate Who's Who...

Unread postby nick c » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:40 am

I have a new found respect for the weather channel, and especially its' founder, John Coleman.

I agree with James Hogan, population control is the core of the issue. Thomas Malthus hit the nail right on the head. Though increases in productivity have increased standards of living in the industrialized countries keeping Malthusian scenarios at bay, he still lurks in the shadows. And that is why the study of Economics was nicknamed "[url2=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dismal_science]the Dismal Science[/url2]."
The AGW agents of reform (Al Gore, et al) seem to be hell bent, whether intentional or not, on restoring the human race to a Malthusian world.

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