The Time Before The Moon

[Total Science]

"Currently, the moon is moving away from the Earth at such a great rate, that if you extrapolate back in time — the moon would have been so close to the Earth 1.4 billion years ago that it would have been torn apart by tidal forces (Slichter, 1963)." — Dennis D. McCarthy, geoscientist, 2003

"The implications of employing the present rate of tidal energy dissipation on a geological timescale are catastrophic. Around 1500 Ma the Moon would have been close to the Earth, with the consequence that the much larger tidal forces would have disrupted the Moon or caused the total melting of Earth's mantle and of the moon." -- George E. Williams, geologist/geophysicist, 2000

"Newton’s gravitational theory is regarded as proved by the action of the tides. But studying the tides, Newton came to the conclusion that the moon has a mass equal to one fortieth of the earth. Modern calculations, based on the theory of gravitation (but not on the action of the tides), ascribe to the moon a mass equal to 1/81 of the earth’s mass." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1946

"…it does not seem likely that it will ever be possible to evaluate the effective rigidity of the earth's mass by means of tidal observations." — George H. Darwin, physicist, 1907

"…in the course of our experiments, we were led away from the primary object of the Committee, namely, the measurement of the Lunar Disturbance of Gravity…." — George H. Darwin, physicist, 1882

"...the pre-Hellenic Pelasgian inhabitants of Arcadia called themselves Proselenes, because they boasted that they came into the country before the Moon accompanied the Earth. Pre-Hellenic and pre-lunarian were synonymous." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1851

"We shall commence with a few of the principal passages from the ancients, which treat of the Proselenes. Stephanus of Byzantium (v. 'Apkas) mentions the logographs of Hippys of Rhegium, a contemporary of Darius and Xerxes, as the first who called the Arcadians proselenous. The scholiasts, ad Apollon. Rhod. IV 264 and ad Aristoph. Nub. 397, agree in saying, the remote antiquity of the Arcadians becomes most clear from the fact of their being called proselenoi. They appear to have been there before the Moon, as Eudoxus and Theodorus also say; the latter adds that it was shortly before the labours of Hercules that the Moon appeared. In the government of the Tegeates, Aristotle states that the barbarians who inhabited Arcadia were driven out by the later Arcadians before the Moon appeared, and therefore they were called proselenoi." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1851

"The passages in Ovid as to the existence of the Arcadians before the Moon are universally known." -- Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, 1851

"In the remotest times, before the Moon accompanied the Earth, according to the mythology of the Muysca or Mozca Indians, the inhabitants of the plain of Bogota lived like barbarians, naked, without any form of laws or religious worship." --Alexander Von Humboldt, naturalist, Researches, 1814

"Among the great men who have philosophized about [the action of the tides], the one who surprised me most is Kepler. He was a person of independent genius, [but he] became interested in the action of the moon on the water, and in other occult phenomena, and similar childishness." — Galileo Galilei, physicist, 1632

"...surnamed Pelasgian from Pelasgus, son of Triopas, its founder, and not far from the sanctuary is the grave of Pelasgus." -- Pausanias, geographer, Description of Greece: Argolis, 2nd century

"It is said that it was in the reign of Pelasgus that the land was called Pelasgia." -- Pausanius, geographer, Description of Greece: Arcadia, 2nd century

"After this king the land was called Arcadia instead of Pelasgia and its inhabitants Arcadians instead of Pelasgians." -- Pausanias, geographer, Description of Greece: Arcadia, 2nd century

"These were Arcadians of Evander's following, the so‑called Pre-Lunar people." -- Plutarch, historian, Moralia: The Roman Questions #76, 1st century

"The stars did not yet revolve in the heavens; the Danaides had not yet appeared, nor the race of Deucalion; the Arcadians alone existed, those of whom it is said that they lived before the Moon, eating acorns upon the mountains." -- Apollonios Rhodios, librarian, Argonautica, ~246 B.C.

[Lloyd]

* Yeah, the moon likely came from Saturn or Jupiter between 4 and 5 millennia ago, when the Saturn system broke up.

[JohnMT]

According to de Grazia, the Moon erupted from the Earth some 14 millenia ago

Chaos and Creation - Earth Parturition and Moon Birth.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:q3 ... clnk&gl=uk

An interesting hypothesis.

[Lloyd]

* I know that's Alfred's theory, but I think Wal, Dave and Dwardu think otherwise, i.e. like I do, as I got the idea from one or more of them.

[Grey Cloud]

Just to put a couple of Total Science's quotes into some sort of perspective:

Plutarch:

Moralia: The Roman Questions #76
#76 Why do they that are reputed to be of distinguished lineage wear crescents on their shoes?

Is this, as Castor says, an emblem of the fabled residence in the moon, and an indication that after death their souls will again have the moon beneath their feet; or was this the special privilege of the most ancient families? These were Arcadians of Evander's following, the so-called Pre-Lunar people.

Or does this also, like many another custom, remind the exalted and proud of the mutability, for better or worse, in the affairs of men, and that they should take the moon as an illustration:

"When out of darkness first she comes anew
Her face she shows increasing fair and full;
And when she reaches once her brightest sheen,
Again she wastes away and comes to naught?"

Or was it a lesson in obedience to authority, teaching them not to be disaffected under the government of kings, but to be even as the moon, who is willing to give heed to her superior and to be a second to him,

"Ever gazing in awe at the rays of the bright-gleaming Sun-god",

as Parmenides puts it; and were they thus to be content with their second place, living under their ruler, and enjoying the power and honour derived from him?

That #76 in its entirety.

THE ARGONAUTICA
BOOK IV

(ll. 257-293) "We go to Orchomenus, whither that unerring seer, whom ye met aforetime, foretold your voyage. For there is another course, signified by those priests of the immortal gods, who have sprung from Tritonian Thebes. As yet all the stars that wheel in the heaven were not, nor yet, though one should inquire, could aught be heard of the sacred race of the Danai. Apidanean Arcadians alone existed, Arcadians who lived even before the moon, it is said, eating acorns on the hills; nor at that time was the Pelasgian land ruled by the glorious sons of Deucalion, in the days when Egypt, mother of men of an older time, was called the fertile Morning-land, and the river fair-flowing Triton, by which all the Morning-land is watered; and never does the rain from Zeus moisten the earth; but from the flooding of the river abundant crops spring up. From this land, it is said, a king (1) made his way all round through the whole of Europe and Asia, trusting in the might and strength and courage of his people; and countless cities did he found wherever he came, whereof some are still inhabited and some not; many an age hath passed since then. But Aea abides unshaken even now and the sons of those men whom that king settled to dwell in Aea. They preserve the writings of their fathers, graven on pillars, whereon are marked all the ways and the limits of sea and land as ye journey on all sides round. There is a river, the uttermost horn of Ocean, broad and exceeding deep, that a merchant ship may traverse; they call it Ister and have marked it far off; and for a while it cleaves the boundless tilth alone in one stream; for beyond the blasts of the north wind, far off in the Rhipaean mountains, its springs burst forth with a roar. But when it enters the boundaries of the Thracians and Scythians, here, dividing its stream into two, it sends its waters partly into the Ionian sea, (2) and partly to the south into a deep gulf that bends upwards from the Trinaerian sea, that sea which lies along your land, if indeed Achelous flows forth from your land."

I couldn't find the reference by Aristotle but would be very interested in reading it, if anyone has a source.
Incidentally, Total Science's Humboldt and classical quotes appear to have been lifted from here:
http://www.slowmotiondoomsday.com/proselenes.html

[seasmith]

~
Perhaps relevant:

The Egyptian moon god Khonsu, son of Amun and Mut or earlier Ptah and Sekmet, was apparently not always the tranquil orb we admire today.

Early references to Khonsu depict him as a terrifying figure, the "angry one of the gods", who strangled lesser deities and ate their hearts.

World Mythology and Legend p. 506
Mercatante & Dow 2004

[JohnMT]

Lloyd wrote:

I know that's Alfred's theory, but I think Wal, Dave and Dwardu think otherwise, i.e. like I do, as I got the idea from one or more of them.

Could you please elaborate?

Cheers.

[Lloyd]

* How's this for a late reply? I think Velikovsky had an article in Pensee' magazine in the 70s called Earth without a Moon or something like that, in which ancient records were quoted describing events that happened before the Moon came to circle the Earth.
* In Thoth [see http://www.kronia.com/thoth/ThotIV15.txt] Thornhill said as follows.

Earth-like planets and moons are similarly "born" by electrical expulsion of part of the positively charged cores of dwarf stars and gas giants. That explains the dichotomy between the dense rocky planets and moons and the gaseous giant planets. In the Electric Universe model, gravity itself is simply an electrostatic dipolar force. So planetary orbits are stabilized against gravitational chaos by exchange of electric charge through their plasma tails (Venus is still doing so strongly, judging by its "cometary" magnetotail, and it has the most circular orbit of any planet) and consequent modification of the gravity of each body. Planets will quickly assume orbits that ensure the least electrical interaction. Impacts between large bodies are avoided and capture rendered more probable by exchange of electric charge between them. Capture of our Moon becomes the only option, it cannot have been created from the Earth. Evidence of past planetary instabilities is written large on the surfaces of all solid bodies in the solar system. That evidence is in the form of electric arc cratering.

[Lloyd]

* I came to this thread now in order to post some interesting info from http://milesmathis.com/roche.html. It's pretty close to EU theory.

- The E/M field would tend to bounce a large body out of a low orbit, because a level of balance would be impossible to find in a natural way. Large bodies simply don't settle into low orbits with little or no impact trajectory. If they have high incoming velocities, the primary bounces them away with a quick increase in the E/M field. If they have low velocities, the E/M field keeps them at a greater orbital distance.
- This is why only very small bodies are found in low orbits. They encounter a small section of the charge field, feel a much smaller repulsion, and settle into orbit much more slowly. This is also why they can exist in these low orbits: using their own charge fields, they funnel the primary's charge field around them, encountering a smaller effect. Larger bodies can't do this nearly as efficiently.
- For example, our Moon is so large it cannot dodge the Earth's charge field efficiently, even at such a great distance. This is why the near side crust is nearly obliterated. The current gravitational model cannot explain why the Moon's near side crust is obliterated, but the unified field explains it immediately. It is a direct outcome of charge field bombardment. The charge field and the ions it carries blast the Moon daily for millions or billions of years. Easy to explain with E/M, impossible to explain with gravity, which should create permanent tides on both the near and far sides of a synchronous Moon.
- This becomes even easier to explain if we add it to the previous finding. The Sun is increasing the orbit of the Moon, which means the Moon used to be closer to the Earth. When the Moon was closer, it felt more bombardment from the Earth's charge field. We may assume that much of the near side crust loss happened in the past, when the Moon was nearer.

[The Aten]

My research leads me to the belief that Jupiter not only belched out proto-Venus (5,000 years ago) but tons of dust and debris including our Moon. It subsequently fell under the electromagnetic and 'gravitational' spell of earth around the beginning of the 1st millennium BC.

http://www.gks.uk.com/

Gary Gilligan

[moses]

My research leads me to the belief that Jupiter not only belched out proto-Venus (5,000 years ago) but tons of dust and debris including our Moon. It subsequently fell under the electromagnetic and 'gravitational' spell of earth around the beginning of the 1st millennium BC.

http://www.gks.uk.com/

Gary Gilligan

The concept that the pharaohs mirrored the actions of planets seems a real possibility.
Mo

[jjohnson]

I think Miles should consult an Atlas of the Moon and see what rough terrain actually exists on the far side of the moon. Unless by pummeled and obliterated he means the mare, supposedly lava basins, and fairly smooth and flat. I'm not sure what pummeling and pummeled areas he refers to.
His paper on tides and why "everyone has gotten them wrong" was interesting, but overall his unified field seems to have a very interesting use for his fast acting E/M field, which gets strong faster than does the gravity force as things near each other, helping to ward off a collision if it is able to do so. Also see his recent paper on the Solar System's instability for more on planetary approaches and orbital mechanics.

[The Aten]

Hi Moses,

Thank for the heads up. Most people think I am insane but I know I’m on the something immense. I’d stake my obsessive, insomniatic existence on it.

I would strongly argue ancient history is literally upside down and by that I mean that the sacred writings (hieroglyphs) of all ancient cultures records the exploits (mainly warring) of personified planets in the guise of, not cosmogonical gods such as Hathor (earth’s rings) or Isis (basically, the ecliptic) but god kings (mainly Mars) and divine queens (always Venus). And the whole royal court, for that matter.

Represented here on earth by people who believed they were at one with celestial bodies (‘souls’ or kas) as they appeared to move back and forth between a flat earth and heaven (space perceived as a real firmament). A body that they believed they would join with after death - to ultimately (chaos permitting) be reborn in, to undertake a life of eternity as a star in the kingdom of Osiris (star attribute).

The key to understanding the theology of all ancient cultures is the child-like notion that the hemispherical dome of heaven was a very real fixed land above – it was the ‘next world,’ the afterlife to all ancient cultures. They could see it, and indeed tried to ‘touch’ it with sky reaching monuments. All would aspire to be reborn in this duel world the Egyptians called, quite simply, Upper Egypt.

My second book Comet Venus will be available at the end of next week and in between the daunting task of self-promotion I intend to throw a few of the above ideas out for discussion. One idea I'm eager to discuss is my contention that Egyptian tomb and temple walls (& queens statues) are covered in actual physical images of Venus in cometary form as it danced with earth only a few thousand years go. I would like to think Thornhill, Talbott et al, would be very interested in these images since they reveal a mainly red disk with two enormous plumed tails (magnetotail) and even exhibit a 'bow shock' represented by Hathor's cow horns (Hathor translates as "house of the king" = earth's rings housing planetary kings).

Some Comet Venus images here http://www.gks.uk.com/gks13/(Under construction)

This is, however, subject for another thread which I will start over the next few weeks.

Gary Gilligan

[moses]

Jno Cook and you Gary represent the future with many people producing new theories of the past. Jno considered the Duat to be a ring in the sky produced by very dusty conditions at the height of the ionosphere. Thus at night in Egypt the Sun's rays illuminated this dust, but the Earth shaded a circle or disc of this dust and allowed Egyptians to see through this circle and see the planets and stars beyond. Now I like this idea, but many other ideas of his I reject. And this is the way it will be with all future theorists. Some inspiring ideas amongst guessings. But eventually we will know enough about the past that we will start having dreams about the past. The forerunner to actually reliving the past.

Some comments about your website ideas:
The shadow was sacred because it was new. In the Saturn System there was little shadow. The Sun was far away and light from the plasma surrounding the Earth would have produced a diffuse light.
The stars were new too. And so the stars were considered sacred too.

The linen bandages represent the spiralling Birkeland current seen to flow between planets. Same for the curling locks of hair.

In the 'Hathor' section the word 'Horus' appears twice in an opening list. Perhps you would like to correct this.

http://www.gks.uk.com/gks2/
"A natural sequential order of things saw masses upon masses of the ecliptic debris tidally drawn in towards the planets forming gigantic ring systems around their equatorial regions."
Maybe look at the double layers around planets as being 'lit-up', thus, for example, making Jupiter appear much larger.

Was Hathor in the ionosphere ? This would give Hathor more shape than as a ring like around Saturn. Please note that there are two main regions of the ionosphere.

‘The lady of the sycamore’ represents a Lichtenberg pattern and thus suggests electric currents in the dusty plasma that you call Hathor.

"Hathor also sent space debris crashing to earth which caused further chaos."
Think electrical discharges through the ionosphere (Hathor).

The Moon being sucked out of Mars through the Valles Marineris is poor. The Valles Marineris being produced electrically - just like the Grand Canyon. The Moon is in equilibrium with the Solar System plasma and in the Egyptian days would have no electrical effects until it was interacting with Mars. Thus it would have appeared as a small star maybe.

Maybe Kadesh represented a particular star, and so a battle at Kadesh would be planetary interaction in the region of this star. So each city would be a star in a constellation, and the planetary interactions would give rise to various depictions of constellations.

I hope these comments don't sound too negative, as I really feel that you have made the Egyptian period come alive and understandable. It may well be possible to map out all the interactions of the planets in this Velikovsky period. I hope you have checked the works of Dave Talbott and Dwardu Cardona, especially, to ensure they have not come up with some of your ideas previously. I think a full study of the Egyptian records will produce a timeline of planetary interactions.
Mo

[The Aten]

Hi Moses,

Thank you for your comments regarding my web. I am familiar with the works of Talbott’s, Cardona and other variants works (actually briefly met Talbott at a SIS meeting in the UK). However, having studied ancient history (specifically Ancient Egypt) for well over a decade I don’t subscribe to the Saturn Theory. I don’t see it ‘written down’ throughout the Pharonic period. I clearly see planetary chaos with my god-king planets and I have derived a rough chronological order of events from studying these ‘intermediaries’ between the mortal and the divine (literally!) – but no shish kebab model.

I identify Jupiter as Ptah (‘framer of the universe’ from earth’s POV) and Saturn as Sokar (described as a the nocturnal incarnation of the sun and in adorning an extended gossamer ring, side on to earth described as a hawk and "great god with his two wings opened”) and while these two doubtless played a part i.e. in conjunction they ‘flared up’ and became the composite god Ptah-Sokar (the order of names important as from the ancients POV) – they were never involved in close hand events – always gods of the afterlife and the transposed Egyptians, the stars. And yes I do have Jupiter (Ptah) and Saturn (Sokar) ‘lit-up’ appearing much larger; hence Ptah was depicted wearing a large blue skull cap. Blue indicative of the actual colour of Jupiter, due I believe to its extreme temperature having ‘electrically’ just given birth to Venus and tons of dust and debris, including our Moon.

>>Was Hathor in the ionosphere?

As in dust and debris, possibly, but the ionosphere was dominated by intense auroral storms. Neon lights on a scale unlike anything witnessed today. Much as you would expect given an electric sun on overdrive. These magical shimmering lights were observed globally and due to a hazed Red Sun sometimes even during the day. They were deified as the great god Amun (“he whose true form could never be known” - literally!) The auroral lights dominated the heavens so much so that all would bow to the omnipresence of this phenomenon. Seen through the aurora, the god king planets would rule only under the authority of Amun. Hence, many pharaohs were “beloved of Amun.” Venus in the guise of Egypt’s many queens was believed to be married to the aurora/Amun. This in part due to Venus adorning two gigantic plumes similar to the ‘curtain like’ plumes of the aurora. Amun is many times referred to as Amun-Re, an apparent composite god? This is incorrect and the text should simply read the “light of the aurora” (Re’s symbol also means light) or even “Amun’s light.” A very apt description of the aurora.

As you can appreciate there is so much more to this and I spend many pages supporting the Amun/auroral identification as I do on the Jupiter/Ptah Sokar/Saturn alignment in my forthcoming book Comet Venus,

Moses wrote:

"The Moon being sucked out of Mars through the Valles Marineris is poor. The Valles Marineris being produced electrically - just like the Grand Canyon. The Moon is in equilibrium with the Solar System plasma and in the Egyptian days would have no electrical effects until it was interacting with Mars. Thus it would have appeared as a small star maybe."

You have read this incorrectly. What I actually say is Mercury (not the Moon) was sucked out through the Valles Marineris as follows…

“After approximately 2,000 years of encounters with Earth, the huge gravitational and electromagnetic forces exerted upon Mars caused a momentous event. The tidal forces of Earth and Venus combined and tore out the heart of Mars. Its solid iron core, its working dynamo, was sucked out to become the planet known as Mercury (Egyptian Aten). A second ‘glorious sun-disk of all lands' was born!”

The extraction of Mercury was originally proposed by physicist and catastrophist John Ackerman http://firmament-chaos.com/ This is far to lengthy to go into but on this I totally agree with him, why? Because it is clearly written down in history. This whole 17 year (echoes of a mars earth synodic resonance) epoch is responsible for the Amarna period http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories ... period.htm

Conventionally, a time when the Egyptians decided to up and rename the sun (Re) as the Aten or ‘disk of the sun.’ To my common sense brain this is so absurd as to be laughable. This whole period records the ‘electromagnetic’ birth of Mars’ core to become the planet Mercury. The Egyptians, in worship of the Aten/Mercury even moved their capitol to be directly under its path. Unfortunately it wasn’t to last, the Aten/Mercury rapidly migrated towards the sun and the old gods such as Re (Sun) and the aurora/Amun having previously being blotted out by the energy of Mercury soon came back into view. The ‘normal order’ of things returned, this consistent with recorded history, albeit in the form of cosmogonical gods and god king planets.

I don’t know about electrical discharges between planets (as in, where it is written down) but I do know Sprites and jets were also clearly observed. These were symbolically represented by the lotus (lotus/sprites can be seen in the above Amarna link) and the sekhem scepter.http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories ... cepter.htm

GG

http://www.gks.uk.com/