The Fundamental Forces

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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Thu May 08, 2014 7:30 pm

Sparky wrote:What if an electron is a shell/sphere?

Would love that. I proposed that in another thread too. :mrgreen:

And each shell/sphere outward is the harmonic (tayga model) of the lowest shell?

I have chosen the lowest shell. So the radius times 2*PI is equal to the frequency
of the electron.
Bohr's model shows how this radius is calculated: 5.29E-11 meter.
But wikipedia does not tell anything about the speed. They use the
speed in the calculations but do not show it.
I should send those scientists in the corner!! :geek:

Unless my calculations are wrong, this means that
the laws of quantum-physics break the normal laws of the forces
and the laws of relativity.

My conclusion for now:
There are no "fundamental forces".
There are forces, but the quantum-mechanics (or what is behind it) is more fundamental.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Fri May 09, 2014 6:41 am

I made an error (I expected that already),
and I will go stand in the corner for a while. :oops:
Must have slept too little..
4am is too late I guess..
great ideas, less accuracy :roll:

V*V= E*C*C*N/(R*R*m)
should be
V*V= E*C*C*N/(R*m)
which gives V=2.20E6
Which is luckily only 1% of the speed of light. Pfff.
In big atoms it would be closer to 10% the speed of light.

Sorry I made this mistake, but I learned a bit from it.
1. Nobody else checks your calculations.. :-(
2. The weak force and the strong force, which are much closer to the nucleus,
are likely to be affected by relativity and quantum-laws.

From the latter I think that the weak and strong forces may be more related to quantum laws,
than actual forces.
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby tayga » Fri May 09, 2014 11:42 am

OK. Here's some proper physics by an amateur physicist. He kills the intranuclear neutron (and by extension the neutrino, I reckon) and both strong and weak interactions by a straightforward analysis of readily-available data.

I've started to repeat his analysis for my own understanding and to look for more patterns. It's actually very simple.

http://mb-soft.com/public2/nuclei6.html

This is top-down demolition of the orthodox model.

Regarding the bottom-up construction of a new model, Zyxzevn, I have a feeling that you're right to be looking at simple equations but a few snippets I've read here and there lead me to believe that those equations might be to do with fluid mechanics. Since I haven't yet studied this area in depth, I can't expand much except to say that the model of all matter as a superfluid aether seems to answer most questions.

This might be very good news for you and Sparky with respect to the shell model and me in relation to harmonics and resonance. The site quoted here is maintained by Joel Morrison, a big fan of EU who has done a great deal of work with the superfluid aether model:

In Sorce Theory, through familiar fluid dynamic principles such as Bernoulli's Principle and the laws of refraction and reflection... fluid-dynamic, wave-resonance mechanisms form a pattern of repeating, concentric, square-of-the-distance shells.


http://spinbitz.net/anpheon.org/
tayga


It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

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Normal science does not aim at novelties of fact or theory and, when successful, finds none.
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The magnetic current is the #4 fundamental force

Unread postby quantauniverse » Sat May 10, 2014 8:26 pm

It's proven that magnetic currents are always found in equal ratios to electric currents. The 4 fundamental forces must include magnetic currents. Superfluid math equates the zero vector=0 at the spin center. The zero vector is the most fundamentally important vector, and is the lab singularity where all the other component forces vanish or cancel out to nothing. This center is a perfect alignment shaped by Birkeland currents, where there is no spin, but a magnetic monopole interaction with antimatter or opposite spin. This happens by the proven 2 flow MHD model of Alfven. The superfluid component is the countervortice, to the normal component of dust and gases. Gravity is actually this center, and the charge separation of antimatter is the force. Hydrogen atoms, electrons as cooper pairs in superconduction, mesons, 4He, all atoms comprised of equal numbers of protons, neutrons, and electrons, and more particles, are all Bosons with no spin superfluid centers. Together stable antimatter and matter particles exist, and standard models refuse modernization or millions lose their jobs.
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby seasmith » Wed May 14, 2014 4:58 pm

A simple experiment with your instrument can be used to show that magnetism follows an inverse-cube law ....


Magnetic forces are slightly different because there is no such thing as a magnetic monopole and the distance on which the force depends is a distance from a magnetic dipole system. This may account for the additional distance term.
-tayga

Yes, essentially correct imo, but more specifically the 'inverse square rule' is by convention a measurement between plus/minus charges, or alternatively between north/south Ends of magnets.
This a result after Faraday, of Weber, Ampere, Maxwell, etal trying to unify observed electrostatic and magnetic forces mathematically. This of course is easiest if calculating from point to point (which Maxwell transposed brilliantly into surface areas and density of charge), and it works great for charge ¢enters, and for gravity as well.

The difference with magnetic flux is that it tends to 'surround' a (hypothetical) "point charge", a solenoid, a flowing current and/or a magnet.
In other words, with expanding domains (spiraling cylinders and cones in a Bessell Function and similar type calculus), it fills and defines the surrounding Volume,
hence the "cube" exponent.

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/activity/l23.pdf
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby krav » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Hi all,

I've stumbled upon a (until now) satisfactory bottom-up quantum theory of Kinetic & Electro-Magnetic (KEM) fields and matter (as Tetrahedrals of field quanta).
Also in perfect agreement (as far as I know) with the direction of physics that the Electric Universe is suggesting.

As explained on websites: http://www.tetryonics.com, http://tetryonictheory.com, and youtube channel with very explainatory lectures https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7HQPGN8MvKkUBWXFvmc5Pw .

What I like is that one can now build geometric scale models of all types of Matter, here is an example of the Electron as a stable geometric configuration of 12 planck quanta (as flat equilateral triangles) with a - 1/12 e charge, and a magnetic dipole moment. Note that in the configuration below the 3 Tetryons are held together by the opposite magnetic poles at the center.

2014-06-21-01.25.gif
Electron model from planck quanta of charge -1/12 e (the elementary charge) as suggested by tetryonics theory.


If you want to see for yourself how this fits, please print the basic triangles on paper, cut or fold and learn some quantum mechanics: https://plus.google.com/s/tetryonics%20template

Cheers,
Kevin
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Sparky » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:57 am

If you want to see for yourself how this fits, please print the basic triangles on paper, cut or fold and learn some quantum mechanics:


At last, cut and paste actual quanta!!! ;) Maybe quantum mechanics isn't so hard. ;) :oops:


Now to find my kindergarten scissors!! :?

:D
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Xantos » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:49 pm

What we have to look and "meditate" upon with gedanken experiments are not forces, but principles. From the smallest of atoms to the largest of masses, the same basic principles apply:

- Pressure gradient
- Waves
- Energy
- Path of least resistance

Applying these same principles to electromagnetism and all other areas of life sciences will lead to new breakthroughs.

I was doing some "mental simulations" for an hour, imagining what it feels like to be a wave. If you observe yourself as a particle movement on a full wave cycle, sinusoid, you will see that electric potential is the carrier wave and magnetic field is the air vortex that is spining between two wavefronts therefore two different magnetic field vectors and two different electric field vectors.

You can also apply the same principles to batteries actually. The voltage is the pressure that builds up inside that "gas canister" that is a LiPo battery. When the current starts flowing, it is the magnetic field that gets created because of the same principle that the pressure creates the vortex inside the bathtub. The pressure of voltage is drilling with the voltage (pressure) a hole in the vector direction in the aether and the magnetic field is that vortex that would occur. The same aether space resistance probably creates cherenkov radiation which is basically a Mach cone.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if similar thing is occuring around a laminar wind jet current inside a wind tunnel. We have seen similar principle with droplets of water that were circling around the wire in space I think? There was a video on YouTube somewhere. This same reason is why plasmas make a coil.

If you think about, how vortex ring is created (that is the equivalent of magnetic field in an ordinary), why would magnetic field be any different than that. We all, as does the Nature, like simplicity. There has to be some sort of current(voltage) flowing across the positive and negative poles. A vacuum on one and pressure on other side. So if we take this same principle, could we create some sort of generator that harnesses magnetic fields? The magnets are essentially a perpetuum mobile, creating magnetic field as long as they exist.

We are missing a crucial piece of understanding here that is hiding in plain sight. Electric motors are equivalent to water turbines and both are very efficient, above 90% because they work on the same basic principle.

The real question here is...what is this interface of electromagnetic fluid? How can we harness its energy? We don't see any cars powered by compressed air because it is VERY inefficient. If we say that air is everywhere, and we are using it to power our gasoline engine, what is the equivalent effect in electromagnetism that would be as spark is to gasoline? THAT answer will be the paradigm shift of human civilization. Aether is everywhere. If it is not, then in that space there is nothing we could describe as existence because electrons and charges are everything that we know as existence. We are living inside a space that is filled with energy waiting to be harnessed. And as we discover, how we could harness that, the gates are open to populate solar system and beyond.
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby krav » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:55 pm

About the physical principles, I personally like the guidance of a geometry when pondering them.
I'm now playing with various tetryons and discovering where the Strong and Weak force could originate from, namely the Electric force on planck quanta surfaces and edges.

Photon_emission_from_tetryon.gif
Photon_emission_from_tetryon.gif (48.61 KiB) Viewed 7134 times

The real question here is...what is this interface of electromagnetic fluid? How can we harness its energy?

This interface (the Aether) could exist of a sea from the smallest fundamental quanta h (Planck's constant), as small (2D flat) ideal quantum inductors (without a resistance in the electrical circuit). Inside these quanta there is a minimal energy quanta (E=hv), stored as either inertial mass energy (E=mc^2), electrostatic field or magnetic dipole moment (E=1/2LI^2). These create the observed standing waves around Matter, but also fill what we call the vacuüm to give it its distinctive properties (electric permittivity and magnetic permeability).
Source : https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0xb7kQORMdDMlFtbWpiV0VBVFE/edit

Harnessing its energy could be done like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW6b1aFPfU , although people are very sceptical about these machines in general, due to the analogy with perpetual motion machines. As long as the magnets don't break, this machine has repeatedly shown to have a higher energy output than input (from the kinetic energy of the kick start? or from magnetizing the magnets?).

Do you think the second law of thermodynamics is violated here, or that the energy source really is that of the ZPF/Aether aided by the magnets (but not the magnetisation itself)?
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Sparky » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:40 am

here is tom bearden. http://youtu.be/eNU3MLqyzPk he has a website and other videos.

If you have a closed system, you can violate 2nd law....if you are using zpe/vacuum energy, that is an open system and 2nd law can not be violated.

What your video shows is a mystery to me. Don't see a schematic nor understand what is being said.
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Native » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:47 am

Anyway, I´m pretty sure we can rule out all the gravitational ideas.

Take for instants the several decades of search for "dark matter" in connection to the galactic rotation anomaly and later cosmological connections too.

Scientists always assume that a finite finding and proof of this "dark matter" will solve major problems in standard cosmology, but completely regardless of a possible solid proof, this does not solve any problems at all. It seemingly solves the galactic rotation anomaly but it still raises the logical question:

How can an assumed universal law of celestial gravity counts for 2 very different kinds of orbital motions in our Solar System and in galaxies where objects supposedly orbits around a celestial gravity center? It obviously and logically cannot. With or without the help of dark this or that.

The cosmological implication of this inconsistent hypothesis is huge. It raises first the question of that either gravity only works on one of the places and completely rules out the other - with or without dark matter - or gravity doesn´t work at all any places.


If gravity doesn´t work at all, the gravitational ideas of attraction also is in full jeopardy. Then "gravity" only can be relieved by electromagnetic binding and repulsive forces which creates and dissolve everything in an eternal cycle of formation and reformation. (Good by Big Bang)

Subsequently, if gravity is totally ruled out, then the question of "feeling weight" must be a question of having lots of atoms and molecules stacked together in our bodies and of an outside pressure and not a question of attraction from the surroundings. Then we are talking primary of atmospheric pressure and secondly of an "orbital speed pressure" on the Earth and other celestial bodies.

Regarding unification of fundamental forces it´s of course much easier without the nonsensical gravitational confusions and the rest of the once-upon-a-time-splitting-up-of-forces can be unified again just by declaring that “it all depend on different amount of electromagnetic charges an of magnetic polarities”.

In order to support this unified theory, thermodynamics also should be included since all gases and matter reacts motionally differently to hot and cold influences.

Well. I almost got dizzy by this - but that´s my opinion.
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby krav » Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:39 pm

What your video shows is a mystery to me. Don't see a schematic nor understand what is being said.

What was demonstrated was, what for the physics teacher appeared to be 'quantum sorcery' , another type of generator that Tom Bearden also experimented with.

The schematic of the device, noted to miss the 12V battery required for initiating the magnetic motor:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2GRHIhjQGBlRDNFUGRWdFpwZlE/edit

It doesn't look like the simplest device to replicate, otherwise I would definitely be interested in doing so.
Just the amount of Nd magnets required would cost more than the money saved on the electricity bill for a year...
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Zendo » Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:59 am

Native wrote:Anyway, I´m pretty sure we can rule out all the gravitational ideas.

Take for instants the several decades of search for "dark matter" in connection to the galactic rotation anomaly and later cosmological connections too.

Scientists always assume that a finite finding and proof of this "dark matter" will solve major problems in standard cosmology, but completely regardless of a possible solid proof, this does not solve any problems at all. It seemingly solves the galactic rotation anomaly but it still raises the logical question:

How can an assumed universal law of celestial gravity counts for 2 very different kinds of orbital motions in our Solar System and in galaxies where objects supposedly orbits around a celestial gravity center? It obviously and logically cannot. With or without the help of dark this or that.

The cosmological implication of this inconsistent hypothesis is huge. It raises first the question of that either gravity only works on one of the places and completely rules out the other - with or without dark matter - or gravity doesn´t work at all any places.


If gravity doesn´t work at all, the gravitational ideas of attraction also is in full jeopardy. Then "gravity" only can be relieved by electromagnetic binding and repulsive forces which creates and dissolve everything in an eternal cycle of formation and reformation. (Good by Big Bang)

Subsequently, if gravity is totally ruled out, then the question of "feeling weight" must be a question of having lots of atoms and molecules stacked together in our bodies and of an outside pressure and not a question of attraction from the surroundings. Then we are talking primary of atmospheric pressure and secondly of an "orbital speed pressure" on the Earth and other celestial bodies.

Regarding unification of fundamental forces it´s of course much easier without the nonsensical gravitational confusions and the rest of the once-upon-a-time-splitting-up-of-forces can be unified again just by declaring that “it all depend on different amount of electromagnetic charges an of magnetic polarities”.

In order to support this unified theory, thermodynamics also should be included since all gases and matter reacts motionally differently to hot and cold influences.

Well. I almost got dizzy by this - but that´s my opinion.


Been toying with that thought recently too. To me it seems as if this is the case. In fact I've been toying with the following views:

- Only electrostatic forces in nuclei (Only electrons, protons and neutrons being the result of migrating electrons) [http://mb-soft.com/public2/nuclei6.html]

- No force of gravity (Wall Thornhill has discussed this on some occasions and rather proposed it be because of the temporary alignment of charges within the body in question) [A balloon rubbed against a surface and have dust gather on the surface is a overly simplistic, but surprisingly still a rather good analogy]

- No relativity (Discussed by physicist Ricardo Carezani in Autodynamics + the fabrication of successful time dilation experiments)

- Only classical wave dynamics in kinetic energy emission (No wave/particle duality, only waves) [Discussed by experimental physicist Eric S. Reiter]

- Partial electromagnetic energy absorption in particles (The not much talked about loading theory which was a thought initially proposed by Max Planck) [Also discussed by Eric S. Reiter in his work]

- No fundamental universal black body radiation emission from anything (Exceptions: Solids with an ideal configuration) [Courtesy of the recent talk from Pierre-Marie L Robitaille]

- CMB spectrum observed is caused by: (1) The galaxy it self (2) The hydroxyl bonds between water molecules [Also Courtesy of the recent talk from Pierre-Marie L Robitaille]

Implications:
- Electric Universe theory is, if not close to a theory of everything, on the right path to it.
- There is no quantum mechanics, only classical waves in phase space (Slight re-iteration: No quantum mechanics involved in the transmission of EM waves)
- There is no exotic particles in the standard model of particle physics (Only protons and electrons)
- The universe is not expanding
- Simplifying (No more need for mathematically complex theories to describe reality. Bonus: Can be explained to grade schoolers)
- A daunting 90-ish years of work within some branches of physics could be thrown out the window (voiding dozens of Nobel Prize winners)

The amalgamation of the above physicist's work is outlining a new paradigm of physics which is free from quantum mythos, particle-complexification, and legends of successful relativity experiments from mathemagical physcists.

Closing thoughts

Einstein wrote:Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Unfortunately I predict that a new model and paradigm will take generations to catch on because of the huge industry of keeping physics as complex as possible. Can you imagine how many tenures and how much research funding that would go down the drain if this would become a new standard over night? In the current system there is no incentive for paradigm shifts within physics. Back in the day it was mostly pride at stake if your theory was challenged by serious contributions or rebuttals, but now it's also a lot of money and possibly public out-rage over massively expensive standard model research (LHC and so on). The modern physics community and educational systems are not only large, but extremely specialized -- and in being so, there is a propensity to rely heavily on earlier physics work. It's a negative feedback loop creating a community of dogmatic physics rather than creative and open-minded ones who are able to see problems in a larger perspective. Of course there is many nuances to my statement, but I think that is an over-arching issue of modern physics. We are simply churning out physicists unable to think out-side the current paradigm.

Other problems with the current paradigm is that So have found a self-corrective mechanism which keeps increasing the tension on their anchors. What they do with observations that are supposedly "theory breaking" is to:
1) Modify the theory with extra free parameters to make the models fit reality AND/OR
2) Say there is no alternative solution so we should just continue on this path

Thankfully the current paradigm will not hold because of the very nature of the scientific method. As long as the spirit of the method is still alive, outliers (aka. fringe physicists), will be able to come to more correct conclusions from available experimental data. I think there will be a constant tension between physics you can't rely on to make predictions and physics you can. The uncertain time-scale of a revolution is because nobody can predict what will trigger the building tension to spew out like a CME.

Apologies for the wall of text, just my humble thoughts on the matter :D
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby Native » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:39 am

@Zendo, you wrote,
Implications:
- Electric Universe theory is, if not close to a theory of everything, on the right path to it.
- There is no quantum mechanics, only classical waves in phase space (Slight re-iteration: No quantum mechanics involved in the transmission of EM waves)
- There is no exotic particles in the standard model of particle physics (Only protons and electrons)
- The universe is not expanding
- Simplifying (No more need for mathematically complex theories to describe reality. Bonus: Can be explained to grade schoolers)
- A daunting 90-ish years of work within some branches of physics could be thrown out the window (voiding dozens of Nobel Prize winners)

I totally agree in this :-)

From my 40 years of studying the many cultural mythical and religious Stories of Creation interpreted in a modern cosmological way and method, I would say even more than 90 years of physical works could be thrown out.

Modern cosmological science has become very illogical an unnatural compared to knowledge thousands of years of empirical and spiritual compiled knowledge. A little paper on this here: http://vixra.org/abs/1109.0065

Thankfully the current paradigm will not hold because of the very nature of the scientific method. As long as the spirit of the method is still alive, outliers (aka. fringe physicists), will be able to come to more correct conclusions from available experimental data. I think there will be a constant tension between physics you can't rely on to make predictions and physics you can. The uncertain time-scale of a revolution is because nobody can predict what will trigger the building tension to spew out like a CME.

As writing this, I´ve just been sentenced to 1 week exclusion from a public debate forum for having all too alternative approaches and arguments wich apparantly were all to much to take for some "fellow" debators who influenced the editorial office to kick me temporarilly out.The system is indeed fighting with all its available means for it´s survival

Thanks for your wall of text. "me like" :-)

Best Wishes
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher
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Re: The Fundamental Forces

Unread postby justcurious » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:23 pm

Nice paper... native.

Regarding the fundamental forces, there have been various derivations of gravity from electromagnetism.
The form of the electrostatic force and that of gravity are very similar,strongly suggesting that they are closely related.
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