Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

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Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby celeste » Mon May 13, 2019 7:34 pm

Anyone want to take a stab at these puzzles? They become quite simple, if you realize that these are not “reflected gamma rays”, but gamma rays accelerated by the sun’s electric field.

1. Why would we see a peak coming from the sun’s equator? Hint: Earth orbits in nearly, but not quite, the sun’s equatorial plane.
2. It is hard to model a “dip” in energies. Hint: what about a “spike” from an electric field in the opposite direction.
3. A peak in energies during solar minimum? Hint: is magnetism the cause of the reflected rays, or does it interfere with the rays accelerated by the sun’s electric field.
4.....

https://www.quantamagazine.org/gamma-ra ... -20190501/
Last edited by nick c on Tue May 14, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: web link removed from thread title
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Re: https://www.quantamagazine.org/gamma-ray-data-reveal-sur

Unread postby celeste » Tue May 14, 2019 12:05 pm

Let me back up.
https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/t ... ation.html
In the first image, you see that we need protons accelerated towards us, to get gamma rays emitted in our direction.
The mainstream is right, that we need this idea to explain the spectrum of gamma rays we see. Decay, as mentioned, leads to a narrower band of emission, for example.

The mistake, is thinking that cosmic rays are coming in, and getting turned around by the magnetic field of the sun. This doesn’t work, for the reasons sited in the article in my first post.

Now, if we are willing to consider that there is a strong electric field in a double layer at the sun, then we have a mechanism to accelerate protons outward. Then, this explains why the emission does not match the spectrum from cosmic rays, since that is not the source in the first place. Second, it explains the peak in emission towards us from the equator, (the very first image in the quanta magazine article). It is that here, the spherically symmetric radial electric field of the sun is directed most towards us. In other words, we don’t have to explain the efficiency of magnetic fields to fling protons right back in our direction (chuck their magnetic mirroring idea).

More importantly, note that the spectrum we do see, must match the acceleration of the protons, or in other words, must be determined by the electric field strength in that double layer (layers?).

So, finally, the variation of the gamma ray emission with solar cycle, tells us the electric field strength is changing with the cycle? Do I have that right?
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Re: https://www.quantamagazine.org/gamma-ray-data-reveal-sur

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Tue May 14, 2019 12:24 pm

The high energy particles are created by the electric mechanisms
similar to:
An electron gun - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_gun
And this generates:
x-rays - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray

But thinking in basic well known physics is forbidden in astronomy of course.
Instead we get weird and impossible physics to explain these phenomena.
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby seasmith » Tue May 14, 2019 5:28 pm

~
Gamma Ray:
Any undefined radiation exhibiting energies too high to be defined.

To know the source of an emission, the root cause of the emission must be known, including for protons.
Otherwise it is just hand-waving and pointing that-a-way.
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby celeste » Wed May 15, 2019 9:35 pm

seasmith wrote:~
Gamma Ray:
Any undefined radiation exhibiting energies too high to be defined.

To know the source of an emission, the root cause of the emission must be known, including for protons.
Otherwise it is just hand-waving and pointing that-a-way.


Sorry, but this is why the mainstream laughs at us.
The mainstream would put a split between x-rays and Gamma rays at about the 100kev photon energy mark.
And no, you don’t have to know the root cause of emission, to identify the source. Often, we solve problems the other way around (doesn’t matter if we are talking mainstream or not). Overly simply, if we see something coming from a certain direction, and can triangulate on the direction, we can find the source. Then we come up with theories of how that source got to a be source for those emissions. This is mainstream or EU or ....
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby seasmith » Thu May 16, 2019 7:51 pm

Sorry, did you think I was referring to your solution ?
No, the comments apply to both EU and MS perspectives.
You are on the right track.
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby Robertus Maximus » Fri May 17, 2019 8:30 am

Gamma Ray production is also location dependent: “…we showed that the solar disk gamma-ray emission can be broken down into equatorial and polar components, and that the intensity of equatorial emission greatly decreases at the end of solar minimum, while the polar emission component remains relatively constant.” and “…the polar and equatorial emission components continue to produce the majority of the observed flux, while the limb and background components are subdominant.”

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/strange-gamma-rays-sun-magnetic-fields
https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05436
https://arxiv.org/abs/1804.06846

“One mechanism capable of producing a temporal shift in the solar gamma-ray flux and morphology is the orientation of the large-scale heliospheric magnetic field (HMF). The HMF follows a 22 year cycle, with polarity reversals every 11 years during the solar maximum. The HMF propagates throughout the solar system, carried by the heliospheric current sheet. In particular, Voyager observed polarity changes in the HMF in the outer solar system.”

It would appear gamma-ray production is closely related to the morphology of incoming Birkeland Currents which supply the Sun with its radiant energy.
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby Solar » Fri May 17, 2019 5:46 pm

celeste wrote:Anyone want to take a stab at these puzzles? They become quite simple, if you realize that these are not “reflected gamma rays”, but gamma rays accelerated by the sun’s electric field.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/gamma-ra ... -20190501/


Which would mean that gamma ray production are locally induced phenomena.

Abstract
We report the observation of an intense gamma-ray burst observed on the ground at sea level, produced in association with the initial-stage of rocket-triggered lightning at the International Center for Lightning Research and Testing at Camp Blanding, FL. The burst was observed simultaneously on three NaI(Tl)/photomultiplier tube detectors that were located 650 m from the triggered lightning channel with gamma-ray energies extending up to more than 10 MeV. The burst consisted of 227 individual gamma-rays that arrived over a 300 μs time period in coincidence with an 11 kA current pulse. The burst of gamma-rays had very different characteristics from the x-ray emission frequently seen in association with the dart leader/return stroke sequences of triggered lightning and may represent a new kind of event, likely originating from cloud processes thousands of meters overhead.

(...)

...it cannot be ruled out that for these events a gamma‐ray (>1 MeV) component also originated from the cloud. - - A ground level gamma-ray burst observed in association with rocket-triggered lightning


When the above gamma ray producing experiment is combined with theories involving "cosmic ray mirrors" it would mean that this one lowly Artificially-Triggered Lightning experiment would have also needed to simultaneously induced an influx of cosmic rays and associated "air showers" from ... somewhere? That would be amazing.

How about this: Electric Fields have been recognized in the induction of gamma rays at the Sun. Unfortunately(?) E-Fields are often used in conjunction with “magnetic reconnection” such that there exist the concept of a “reconnection electric field “ or even “magnetic reconnection electric field”:

Reconnection Electric Field

… indicating that more powerful flares involve stronger reconnection electric fields. In addition, eruptive flares with higher electric-field strengths tend to be accompanied by faster coronal mass ejections. - Statistical Properties of Ribbon Evolution and Reconnection Electric Fields in Eruptive and Confined Flares - Jürgen Hinterreiter et al


Electric field acceleration of protons and ions are often based on the picture constructed by Speiser (1965) and later by Martens (1988). However, the special case of long duration, high-energy proton and ion acceleration by electric fields was specifically addressed by Litvinenko and Somov (1993) and Litvinenko (1996a) and later employed by Akimov et al. (1996) to explain the high-energy gamma emission from the 15 June 1991 flare. The general picture is that a large magnetic reconnection current sheet (RCS), established behind a receding CME, accelerates particles in the electric field along the sheet. - LONG-DURATION SOLAR GAMMA-RAY FLARES JAMES M. RYAN


Here is Litvinenko’s work citing the rise of the “transverse electric field” during a “reconnecting current sheet” (RCS) due to an instability in the current sheet, i.e. “current instability”, that basically causes said current sheet to “rupture”. However, even though the magnetic field “One way or another…” - “relaxes” towards resuming its initial state, while it's doing so, the relaxation is “accompanied by a second abrupt energy release, mainly in the form of high energy particles. The reason for this is a large direct electric field generated inside the RCS, that efficiently accelerates the charged particles (Somov 1981).” Also from the below paper:

Physically, the transverse electric field outside the RCS ... is a consequence of charge separation. Both electrons and protons are deflected by the magnetic field when they move out of the sheet. The trajectories of electrons, however, are bent to a greater degree owing to their smaller mass. As for much heavier ions, they stream out of the RCS almost freely. Hence the charge separation arises, leading to the electric field that detains the proton in the RCS region…

The following point is worth mentioning here. The charge separation that gives rise to the potential mainly stems from the motion of protons perpendicular to the RCS plane- Relativistic acceleration of protons in reconnecting current sheets of solar flares: Litvinenko, Y. E. & Somov, B. V.


The cosmic ray anti-correlation is very interesting as are these recent gamma ray findings. On Earth some of the lightning induced gamma ray flashes are:

Upward TGF's (head into space)
Downward TGF's (beamed downward to Earth's surface)

See: Team makes breakthrough in understanding rare lightning-triggered gamma-rays

Perhaps some of the new findings might be indicative of locally produced Upward/Downward solar gamma rays flashes and perhaps others might be indicative of interstellar, galactic, and/or inter-galactic cosmic ray induced gamma ray flashes. It would be amazing if there were only a one-off situation occurring.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Fri May 17, 2019 8:01 pm

Hi Solar, nice findings.

If the papers replace "magnetic" reconnection with connecting electrical currents,
they can get actual working physics. This creates short-cuts.

The electrical fields in such electric short-cuts can be extremely high.
And they logically accelerate the electrons and protons to high speeds.
And this is the electron-gun that I was thinking about.
The resulting currents also create a rail-gun.

When the electrons or protons hit another layer, they will form the
high-energetic x-ray machine.
The high energetic x-ray and strong electric fields and currents can
in my opinion initiate nuclear reactions as well.

Both may produce all kinds of gamma rays.
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby Solar » Sat May 18, 2019 4:49 am

Apologies: i was literally nodding to sleep when I made that post with far too many windows and notes open and have asked nick to make the necessary changes.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby Solar » Sat May 18, 2019 10:47 am

Here are the links to two of the references in the earlier post:

Full Text:Relativistic acceleration of protons in reconnecting current sheets of solar flares: Litvinenko, Y. E. & Somov, B. V.

Gamma Rays via Artificially-Triggered Lightning:

Full Text:A ground level gamma-ray burst observed in association with rocket-triggered lightning - J. R. Dwyer et al


There have been other Triggered Lightning events with gamma ray emission:

Full Text:
Two TGFs have previously been detected at ground level at the International Center for Lightning Research and Testing (ICLRT), a 1 km2 facility located five miles east of Starke, FL, in North Central Florida. One TGF was associated with a 2003 classically triggered lightning flash [Dwyer et al., 2004a], and the other followed a return stroke in a natural cloud‐to‐ground flash in 2009 [Dwyer et al., 2012]. A third ground‐level TGF was detected by the Lightning Observatory in Gainesville, FL, in 2015 [Tran et al., 2015]. Here we report on a fourth TGF, one that was associated with an altitude‐triggered flash at the ICLRT on 15 August 2014.Ground‐level observation of a terrestrial gamma ray flash initiated by a triggered lightning


Related Video:Triggered lightning induces a terrestrial gamma ray flash

Neither of those papers saw any evidence that cosmic rays were associated with the events.

Zyxzevn wrote:Hi Solar, nice findings.

If the papers replace "magnetic" reconnection with connecting electrical currents,
they can get actual working physics. This creates short-cuts.

The electrical fields in such electric short-cuts can be extremely high.
And they logically accelerate the electrons and protons to high speeds.
And this is the electron-gun that I was thinking about.
The resulting currents also create a rail-gun.

When the electrons or protons hit another layer, they will form the
high-energetic x-ray machine.
The high energetic x-ray and strong electric fields and currents can
in my opinion initiate nuclear reactions as well.

Both may produce all kinds of gamma rays.


Agreed. It seems clear that during "runaway atmospheric breakdown" (discharge phenomena) cosmic ray collisional mechanics are not necessarily required. Electric Fields, Magnetic Fields, electric currents, current "sheets" and the 'rupturing' of their double layers however, are needed as per Litvinenko, Y. E. & Somov, B. V.

The comparative idea of gamma rays at the Sun being the result of the 'runaway breakdown of stellar atmosphere' is attractive.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby seasmith » Mon May 20, 2019 7:38 pm

... cause of the emission must be known, including for Protons. -s

The comparative idea of gamma rays at the Sun being the result of the 'runaway breakdown of stellar atmosphere' is attractive. -Solar


Solar, Celeste, Do you have any ideas for the reason of concurrent emissions of 'gamma rays' with emissions of Protons; the computed direction of the source aside ?
We have already made the distinction between the breakdown of a radioactive source emission and electric field sources, so we are talking about broadband events here I think.
:?:
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby celeste » Mon May 20, 2019 10:35 pm

seasmith wrote:
... cause of the emission must be known, including for Protons. -s

The comparative idea of gamma rays at the Sun being the result of the 'runaway breakdown of stellar atmosphere' is attractive. -Solar


Solar, Celeste, Do you have any ideas for the reason of concurrent emissions of 'gamma rays' with emissions of Protons; the computed direction of the source aside ?
We have already made the distinction between the breakdown of a radioactive source emission and electric field sources, so we are talking about broadband events here I think.
:?:


Seasmith,
I’m interested, but can you clarify the question? If we have accelerated protons, and collisions from those accelerated protons, they then cause gamma ray production, in the direction of the collisions. That’s the mainstream model so far, correct?

(Also, on a personal note, I never took offense to your previous comments in this thread. I know you are one of the few founding members in this forum, and I’m always interested in what you have to say. I remember back in the days when I learned the most from exchanges between you, C.C., Lloyd, Junglelord, etc.. , Just to get that out of the way, LOL).
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby seasmith » Wed May 22, 2019 10:36 pm

Seasmith,
I’m interested, but can you clarify the question? If we have accelerated protons, and collisions from those accelerated protons, they then cause gamma ray production, in the direction of the collisions. That’s the mainstream model so far, correct


If your’e looking for clarity from mainstream, good luck.
Here’s a recent take by noted QM professors in Europe on proton:

If entanglement exists within a proton, there will be additional entropy as a result of those linkages. That entropy can be teased out by counting the number of particles produced in each collision. The amount of entropy the researchers found agreed with that expected assuming the quarks and gluons were entangled, the physicists report in their paper, which is now awaiting peer review before publication in a journal.
The indication of entanglement is not yet definitive, says theoretical physicist Stefan Floerchinger of Heidelberg University in Germany, who was not involved in the study. To conclusively confirm entanglement, strict tests are needed to rule out other possible explanations. Instead, he says, the researchers’ study is “more of a door opener,” and could lead to further research that could clarify the internal physics of protons”.

Exactly what is colliding with what ? Why sometimes coherent gamma radiation is generated and sometimes just noise and heat ? Gamma range radiation can be be produced by both proton and electron interfaces; what's the common link ? Intersecting fields E,M,P, have been used for decades now to form their own local resonant chambers, generating coherent emissions. Gamma acts like a second or third order harmonic; almost a near-wave, it diffuses immediately.
Quantum Mystery sells.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/exp ... de-protons
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Re: Gamma Ray Puzzles Solved

Unread postby Solar » Thu May 23, 2019 8:35 am

Celeste and Seasmith imho you are both correct from your respective angles

The biggest problem with these articles are the “spectacularly wrong” assumptions and models that form the reasoning of those who are (pleasantly?) surprised by the Fermi LAT data. These machinations are infused into the interpretations and this is why there can be lack of clarity.

The Quantum Magazine article informs that “Physicists do not think the sun emits any gamma rays from within.” This is a concept derived from the solar fusion model where (supposedly) some photons can be created *inside* the Sun but they hypothetically “scatter and downgrade to lower-energy light before leaving” Like so:

The Sun's Emissions of Electromagnetic Radiation

The Sun emits EM radiation across most of the electromagnetic spectrum. Although the Sun produces gamma rays as a result of the nuclear fusion process (see the diagram of the proton-proton chain on "The Solar Furnace" reading page), these super high energy photons are converted to lower energy photons before they reach the Sun's surface and are emitted out into space. So the Sun doesn't give off any gamma rays to speak of. The Sun does, however, emit x-rays, UV, light (of course!), IR, and even radio waves. - Windows to The Universe


That’s the first problem.

Cantilevered atop that idea another hypothesis was subsequently put forth that the Sun should still have a gamma ray glow. Yet, because of the above, something else had to be the cause. Enter “magnetic mirroring”, an idea proposed by Seckel, Stanev and Gaisser in 1991.

With these two constructs forming the basis of reasoning the actual gamma ray glow would then indicate that “Every cosmic ray that comes in has to be turned around.” - which would make the hypothetical non-gamma ray producing nuclear fusion model coupled with “magnetic mirroring” idea operate ”with 100 percent efficiency at high energies.” - according to the Fermi LAT data. As a result of theoretics and hypotheses they are thunderstruck that they have been so "spectacularly wrong".To add insult to injury even hypothetical “dark matter” interactions at the Sun’s interior has been invoked.

Therefore, at higher energy levels the gamma ray photons (and associated protons) were supposedly the result of cosmic rays from outside the solar system briefly interacting with the stellar atmosphere and then doing a stellar U-Turn in the magnetic field of their fusion Sun.

With the Fermi LAT data everyone who came to the table were already wearing several pairs of hypothetical and theoretical sunglass through which these interpretations are being made. (Like So)

Time for some docs. As you read them (particularly the first two) it will be easy to see how there is a scramble to not only still utilize the aforementioned models but to also posit more theoretics on top of them while simultaneously (and diplomatically) pointing out that the "magnetic mirror" idea is "in tension" with Fermi Lat data:

1- The Sun at GeV--TeV Energies: A New Laboratory for Astroparticle Physics M.U. Nisa et al

2- Evidence for a New Component of High-Energy Solar Gamma-Ray Production: Tim Linden et al

3-SIGNATURES OF COSMIC-RAY INTERACTIONS ON THE SOLAR SURFACE: D. Seckel et al

Papers 1 & 2 deliver the goods in terms of the Fermi LAT data. Paper 1 refers to the “magnetic mirroring” idea as being “in tension” with the data. In Table 1 of that first paper is a list of he ‘expectations’ according to the aforementioned cantilevered ideas versus the observations (only the Compton Scattering model/hypothesis survived). Paper 3 is the 1991 “magnetic mirroring” hypothesis which the authors dutifully note as being “…sensitive to assumptions about cosmic-ray transport in the magnetic fields of the inner solar system.”

You have both cited perfectly reasonable ways gamma rays & accelerated protons can be induced (Gamma Ray Sources other than Radioactive Decay). It seems unnecessary to evoke the “exotic physics” (fusion sun with downshifted photons, mirrors, internal dark matter annihilation etc). Solar Energetic Particle events (“SEP’s” aka “Proton Storm”) have been observed before. They are trying to deduce things from a gamma ray energy-band perspective:

1- “solar flares is restricted to < 4 GeV.)”
2- “0.1–10 GeV, with models of cosmic-ray electrons undergoing inverse Compton scattering off solar photons (this model survived)
3- “dip around 40 GeV with no theoretical explanation”
4- (sustained) 100 GeV during the solar minimum
5- “very bright” 200GeV
6- They'd like to get 300-800GeV and/or 1-100 TeV but there are some issues

Although the theories are lacking support from the data (worthwhile discussion) - they keep talking about the theories in relation to the data (not worthwhile in light of no data to support them). It's a cul de sac of speculation after awhile and these theories have to be separated from the data.

Here is a good example of that: Even though "reconnection" appears - the title alone seems to exhibit exasperation with the kind of high theoretics infused with these latest Fermi LAT findings:

Inside the reconnection region 1 the electric field is produced which can accelerate charge particles, e.g., [3].
At the explosion the matter is expelled upwards and downwards of reconnection region (2 and 3 in figure 1) where shocks are produced [4]. In addition, turbulence enhances so, that condition develops for the diffusive shock acceleration and stochastic acceleration, e.g., [5, 6]. The upward moving hadrons have possibilities to escape into the space along the open magnetic field lines or to be trapped in the closed magnetic field on the Sun, the downward directed hadrons interact with the ambient solar atmosphere giving rise to gamma emission and neutrons. - Once again about origin of the solar cosmic rays - G A Bazilevskaya


Because even "reconnection" (whatever that is) needs an electric field. But seriously: In light of this latest info you gotta love that title LMAO!!
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