gravitation speed

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gravitation speed

Unread postby rickard » Wed May 29, 2019 8:10 am

Hi,

According to the information regarding the alleged "collision between two black holes", that was supposed to have occurred nine billion light years away or so, the subsequent "gravitation wave" traveled "at the speed of light" for 5 billion years until it was observed here on earth.
My question is: Is not gravitation instantaneous?
Would not the "ripples in space time", if they had existed, have reached earth "at once" ?

What is the true speed of gravitation ?

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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Wed May 29, 2019 1:18 pm

rickard wrote:What is the true speed of gravitation ?

We do not know exactly.
Einstein promoted the idea of light-speed gravity, because in his model
nothing can go faster than light.

There are many of the Electric Universe that think that gravity is instantaneous or
much faster than light.
But if gravity has an electric origin, as Walthorn claims, it should move with
the speed of light.
Image
Pure electric attraction, between charged pencil and dielectric bubble. (1/R³ force)

I personally object against the "evidence" for the gravitational waves. Because there is so
much speculation, statistics and noise in it. I have seen much better evidence for UFOs and ghosts.
Additionally there is a lot of problems with much of the claimed "evidence" for general relativity.
Things like Einstein crosses/rings, Black holes etc, seem flawed.

The evidence for speed of gravity:

The orbits of moon and planets themselves show precession.
Image
The cause for this is not clear yet, but it is seen as evidence for Einstein's gravity.

Additionally there is good evidence for time-dilation due to gravity. With atomic clocks
we can see changes in time depending on the height of the clock. (But I still have to
see some good examples of these tests).

The orbits do not lose energy, but instead gain energy. The moon moves away from earth,
and the earth moves away from the sun. This is opposite of what Einstein claims.

The Gravity Probe B showed a zero change in space/time, which might indicate a problem
with Einstein's idea. But also with the fairness of the science around it.

The precession can also be influenced by charged planets, magnetism, or solar wind.
And I think this would be interesting to check out.

As bonus here is the gravity distribution around earth:
Image
This map was obtained via acceleration
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby rickard » Wed May 29, 2019 1:53 pm

Thanks for your comment,
I saw a video lecture with W Thornhill where he meant that the "gravitation waves" from the "black hole collision" should have been registered at the exact same time since gravitation is instantaneous. But there was a difference between the measure points in southern and northern US.
And .... if gravitation is instantaneous, why did the "waves" have to travel for a billion years in order to reach the earth?

As I see it there are no such thing as gravitation waves that moves through the non existing "space time"....

Since the micro cosmos must be infinite, I think that the particles far down in micro cosmos must move with a speed that is much higher than the speed of light, (based on the fact that everything goes faster the further down in micro cosmos one get) So maybe the gravitation is an micro electric force that travel with a speed that exceed the speed of light thousands of times. So it can thus be electric and still travel faster than light...
I think that I read somewhere that some scientist had proposed that theory ..... he talked about "subtrones" if I'm not wrong ....

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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby crawler » Wed May 29, 2019 4:13 pm

There is lots of stuff on google re gravity speed. Lots of it is rubbish, claiming infinite speed & the speed of light. I believe that the speed is at least 20 billion c (Van Flandern & Co).

If gravity is electric (ie due to em radiation) then its speed must be at the speed of light or a bit faster (eg 5c)(in the nearfield at least). In other words gravity aint electric.

Gravity is due to the acceleration of (sub-quantum) aether, the fundamental essence (Conrad Ranzan)(Reginald Cahill), which flows into all mass where it is annihilated.
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Wed May 29, 2019 4:39 pm

If gravity is electric (ie due to em radiation)

I am not sure, but I think this version is a related to the photon pressure
that every object gives. To restore the energy, the gravity compensates the photon pressure.

In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg relationship also gives us gravity.
This is a bit similar to the above idea, and much more mainstream.
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby crawler » Wed May 29, 2019 5:10 pm

Zyxzevn wrote:
If gravity is electric (ie due to em radiation)
I am not sure, but I think this version is a related to the photon pressure that every object gives. To restore the energy, the gravity compensates the photon pressure.
In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg relationship also gives us gravity. This is a bit similar to the above idea, and much more mainstream.
Mainstream believes that photons are em radiation & em radiation is photons. No, em radiation is photaenos, which radiate out from the main helical body of every free photon (light) & every confined photon (electrons quarks etc).
Therefore one might talk of photaeno pressure, not photon pressure.
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby ja7tdo » Wed May 29, 2019 11:38 pm

hi,
The gravity of on the earth and space are different forces.
Gravity in space is a complex combination of electric attraction and repulsion by plasma.
Because it works remotely, it will be millions of times the speed of light, as Tom Van Flandern claims.

The important thing is that gravity on earth is a mechanism different from space.
https://etherealmatters.org/article/com ... hs-gravity

Universal gravity is the biggest mistake in physics history.
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby rickard » Thu May 30, 2019 4:08 am

ja7tdo wrote:hi,
The gravity of on the earth and space are different forces.

Universal gravity is the biggest mistake in physics history.


How can we know that "the gravity of on the earth and space are different forces" ?
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby ja7tdo » Thu May 30, 2019 4:40 am

rickard wrote:
ja7tdo wrote:hi,
The gravity of on the earth and space are different forces.

Universal gravity is the biggest mistake in physics history.


How can we know that "the gravity of on the earth and space are different forces" ?


The universe has a repulsive force. Galileo and Kepler were wondering why the planets do not collide. Newton devised a universal gravity ignoring the repulsive force. Gravity alone does not stabilize the planet's revolution. The balance between centrifugal force and attractive force is the same as riding on a razor blade.

Three reasons Earth revolution
https://etherealmatters.org/article/thr ... revolution
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby fencewalker » Thu May 30, 2019 1:20 pm

i propose a test for this.
we see class 1a supernovae all the time, we won't have to look billions of light years away.
this kind of nova is 2 stars colliding. if we can detect their gravitational waves and view the explosion, then these 2 events should occur at the same time if gravity attracts at the speed of light.
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby rickard » Thu May 30, 2019 2:20 pm

fencewalker wrote:i propose a test for this.
we see class 1a supernovae all the time, we won't have to look billions of light years away.
this kind of nova is 2 stars colliding. if we can detect their gravitational waves and view the explosion, then these 2 events should occur at the same time if gravity attracts at the speed of light.


Maybe you should present your proposal to the LIGO people ....
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby fencewalker » Thu May 30, 2019 8:31 pm

rickard - could u offer a link to where i might present this proposal to the LIGO people?
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby rickard » Fri May 31, 2019 1:10 am

fencewalker wrote:rickard - could u offer a link to where i might present this proposal to the LIGO people?

I googled and found this web site: https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby ja7tdo » Fri May 31, 2019 3:46 pm

fencewalker wrote:i propose a test for this.
we see class 1a supernovae all the time, we won't have to look billions of light years away.
this kind of nova is 2 stars colliding. if we can detect their gravitational waves and view the explosion, then these 2 events should occur at the same time if gravity attracts at the speed of light.


I wrote post for LIGO before.

LIGO detected not the gravity wave but the SLF wave
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16909

LIGO is a very insensitive antenna for SLF(super low frequency).
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Re: gravitation speed

Unread postby jacmac » Fri May 31, 2019 8:39 pm

I must be missing something.
A, Two Black Holes collide, and we detect a CHIRP ?
Really, a CHIRP !
B, Or, How does a super low frequency signal give a CHIRP ?
Would not a super low frequency take longer than a chirp time to happen ?
I must be missing something.
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