So if not a black hole, then what?

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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Solar » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:24 am

Zyxzevn wrote:

This gave me the idea:
What if the particles are actually going faster than light?
(Neutrinos anyone?)
It would give an enormous shock-wave.


The ballistic, or funnel cloud, approach is useful to convey the general idea of what is being observed. However, in the context of Plasma Electrodynamics things are a bit different.

A funnel cloud is a vortex... - Wheatherscapes


Plasma, Electric Fields, Magnetic Fields: Plasma Vortex

It's actually quite a bit more involved than these can convey. Save for the general ideas conveyed by funnel clouds produce by storms on Earth, electrodynamic activity in Cosmic Plasmas have their equivalent. Elliptical Galacy M87 also has a "Counterjet":

First Optical Images of the "Invisible" Counter-Jet in Giant Galaxy M87 25 February 1992

Just from the kinematics alone you need something moving fast enough to interact like that.

What did Zeus "hurl"?
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby D_Archer » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:52 am

nigma46 wrote:If radio interferometry cannot produce an 'image', is that equivalent to MRI 'images'?

i.e. Are MRI 'images' also not images?


Please be careful in reading what people say, it is not an 'optical picture'. it is an image of some sort; that part is not disputed only the nature of the image.

Regards,
Daniel
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Open Mind » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:40 pm

Here is Wal's answer from a new youtube about an interview done April 8, 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4NffTr ... jreload=10

Plasmoid.
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby LunarSabbathTruth » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 am

D_Archer wrote:
nigma46 wrote:If radio interferometry cannot produce an 'image', is that equivalent to MRI 'images'?

i.e. Are MRI 'images' also not images?


Please be careful in reading what people say, it is not an 'optical picture'. it is an image of some sort; that part is not disputed only the nature of the image.

Regards,
Daniel



It is more like a "graph of data".
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:15 am

Solar wrote:What did Zeus "hurl"?


A baseball?
Image

What would happen if you tried to hit a baseball pitched at 90% the speed of light?
https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Solar » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:18 pm

Zyxzevn wrote:
Solar wrote:What did Zeus "hurl"?


A baseball?
Image

What would happen if you tried to hit a baseball pitched at 90% the speed of light?
https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/


HAHA! You know I enjoy FTL stuff so yeah!

I'm a little perplexed at this "black hole" announcement. The story goes that these are supposed to be utterly and completely invisible. The story also goes that their existence can only be inferred from the activity of stuff in the surrounding vicinity. So how can the statement be made that the first picture of one has been taken?? That is a disingenuous claim according to their very own theory.

There are numerous images of the Plasmoid, the Circumnuclear Disk (torus) and the "Mini-Spiral" of "gas and dust" that are somehow being drawn into an area within the diameter of the CND - right here in our own Milky Way backyard. Here is an old image of the plasmoid in the Milky Way galaxy known as Sgr A*:

Image
Image:NRAO

When better imaging capabilities were developed and utilized it was found that a CND exist within the Milky Way's Plasmoid above: See page 13 of this doc:The Multiwavelength Galactic Center

And then, several images show that quite a lot of plasma, gas, and dust are being drawn (not "falling") into the space *within* the CND forming the Mini-Spiral such as this one at NRAO:

New evidence has been uncovered for the presence of a jet of high-energy particles blasting out of the Milky Way’s supermassive black hole known as Sagittarius A* (Sgr A*). This image of Sgr A* and the region around it contains radio emission data from the Very Large Array. Jets of high-energy particles are found throughout the Universe on large and small scales. The likely discovery of a jet from Sgr A* helps astronomers learn more about the giant black hole, including how it is spinning.

Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/UCLA/Z.Li et al; Radio: NRAO/VLAThe supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way


Then, all of sudden, like with so many other docs in the literature, an even closer image waaaaay deep into the Mini-Spiral itself has a caption that reads:

A radio image from the NSF’s Karl G. Jansky Very Large Array showing the centre of our galaxy. The mysterious radio filament is the curved line located near the center of the image, & the supermassive black hole Sagittarius A* (Sgr A*), is shown by the bright source near the bottom of the image. Credit: NSF/VLA/UCLA/M. Morris et al. - Cosmic filament probes our galaxy’s giant black hole


So with all of this sitting in our very own galaxy it was decided to put all of this effort into producing an image of nothing more than the CND torus opening of .... M87... instead??
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:54 pm

HAHA! You know I enjoy FTL stuff so yeah!


Time-delay between neutrinos and gamma-rays in short GRBs
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.07212.pdf
Neutrinos in high energetic events arrive earlier than light?

So with all of this sitting in our very own galaxy it was decided to put all of this effort into producing an image of nothing more than the CND torus opening of .... M87... instead??

I think that they could not find a torus.
We usually do not see tests that failed.

There should be many black holes.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25029
As many as 20,000 black holes are predicted to settle into the central parsec of the Galaxy as a result of dynamical friction3,4,5; however, so far no density cusp of black holes has been detected.

Radio jets from the Milky Way’s black hole could be pointing right at Earth
http://www.astronomy.com/news/2019/01/r ... t-at-earth

Maybe there is simply no black hole,
but how can so many theoretical scientists be wrong? :roll:
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Solar » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:58 pm

Zyxzevn wrote:
Maybe there is simply no black hole,
but how can so many theoretical scientists be wrong? :roll:


This is a really good line from that first paper: “Photons will remain trapped until the system becomes transparent.”

Interestingly enough it was this following paper that traced the the tip of the filament known the Double Helix Nebula all the way into Sgr A* plasmoid and the CND:

The Double Helix Nebula: a magnetic torsional wave propagating out of the Galactic centre
Mark Morris (UCLA), Keven Uchida (Cornell), Tuan Do (UCLA)

Although the evidence presented is spot on the paper refers to the connection of the Double Helix Nebula filament with the Plasmoid/CND/Mini--Spiral complex as "ambiguous". It would infer (if "They" can do it; so can I) that the ionizing Plasmoid/CND/Mini-Spiral structure are a type of complex induced where an electric current "strikes", or intersects, one or more of the "molecular clouds" known to exist in the area. This implies that the CND is the "opening" of the current channel and that after ionization the reaming chemical constituents are attracted through said channel.

So: there's the filament, there's the plasmoid, there's the ionizing "ring"- or torus, and the Mini-Spiral evacuating spent matter through the channel of a gigantic galactic lightning-strike but why fiddle with evidence when one can play with invisible "holes" millions of light years away. :roll:
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby celeste » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:13 pm

Solar,
Care to share a little more on the “disk” vs “torus” dynamic? I’ve got my own ideas about when we would get one versus the other (or how we would explain why both would appear), but I would like your input first.
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Solar » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:06 pm

celeste wrote:Solar,
Care to share a little more on the “disk” vs “torus” dynamic? I’ve got my own ideas about when we would get one versus the other (or how we would explain why both would appear), but I would like your input first.


There appears to be a scaling relationship present. Depending on the filtering techniques and viewing geometry both "disk" and "torus" can be present with either spiral and/or elliptical galaxy. Here is elliptical galaxy NGC4261

Image

Here; spiral Galaxy NGC 1512

Image

NGC4261 above is a LARGE scale CND torus

In the context of the plasma electrodynamics the ballistic “projectile” could correspond with the (tubular) filament of an electric current during an electric “arc” (arc mode and/or “spark-mode”). The "surface", or "wall" on the other hand could be the double-layer of any number of "molecular clouds". Here is another example of an actual Plasma Torus using this same motif “created by a jet of water striking a crystal plate”:

Toroidal plasmoid generation via extreme hydrodynamic shear

One form of matter serving as a “projectile” intersecting another form of matter acting as a “wall” or surface produced “a stable ring of plasma in open air”, a Plasma Torus, in midair, at the lab. Although there is a “projectile” (the jet of water) and a surface (the crystal plate) what is missing? The Mini-Spiral - (Vortex). In this experiment that feature is not really missing though.

Comparatively, the full length of the Double Helix Nebula electric current filament as it connects to the bright Plasmoid Sag A*, then the CND Torus feature, then also the substances being drawn into the opening of the CND undergoing vortex motions (aka “Mini-Spiral”) notice Fig. 1 in the above doc and its caption.

Fig 1 panel ‘C’ shows streamers “as they stretch radial from the impinging site…” . So these "streamers" would correspond to the arms a spiral galaxy but in the experiment they are going in the wrong direction - radially *from* the impinging site. So this would more so symbolize the radial nature of an elliptical configuration.

With regard to CND's the molecular clouds that interact with the ionizing torus are very important. Ionized or not, matter drawn into the filament channel (the MIni-Spiral), allows some portions of the DHN filament length to be detected.

So: Unlike the molecular clouds that have been detected interacting with the smaller scale CND/DHN/and its Mini-Spiral the potential of molecular clouds at the edges of the disk of spiral galaxies becoming "streamers" analogous to the inward propagating "arms of spiral galaxies remains (as far as I know) ... a thing not pondered in astrophysics?

Here is a schematic of the well documented activities of SgrA including a graphic for the Double Helix Nebula (DHN) filament:

Discovery of the Pigtail Molecular Cloud in the Galactic Center

Any number of images have been made of smaller filamentary matter heading INTO the CND vortex (Mini-Spiral). If this were scaled up to the size of The Milky Way, or NGC 4261, or NGC 1512 ... where are the corresponding molecular clouds at some distant outer edge of these galactic disk that would slowly become energized, and increasingly ionized, as they were likewise drawn inward? Meanwhile, simultaneously, the CND footprint of an electric current with its "laminar flow" as it penetrated into and/or interacted with the double-layer surface(s), or "wall", of molecular clouds might present a "torus" regardless of galaxy type.

It would be an interesting scaling relationship if VAST molecular clouds were to be found wafting around and/or elongated towards the far distant edges of galactic disk. Something along this line of thought.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Cargo » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:55 pm

Don't forget the 4th state of Water though for that experiment. Plus, the equality is not quite there. Since instead of an Air/Water environment for them, there is only Plasma in Space.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Solar » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:03 am

Here also is something interesting. In terms of perspectives it definitely bears relation to the question asked in this thread "If not a black hole, then what?" In a "unified model" not only are *some* of the "gas clouds" ("molecular clouds") being portrayed but, most interestingly, so is the "viewing geometry". Depending upon what angle one views an object - different classifications, naming conventions, and theories could be given to different qualities - of the very same object.

The "zoo" of AGN with different names can be thought of as variations on a basic theme: the central power comes from accretion onto a SMBH, but what can be seen depends on the orientation of the observer with respect to the accretion disk, the dusty torus, and the jet, as shown in the illustration here.

(...)

Where do the gamma-rays come from?

The extremely bright, rapid increase in gamma rays from blazars makes many astrophysicists think they originate from a small region of the jet, within the Broad Line Region. However, some of the flares seem to be associated with the ejection components from the core that move very near the speed of light, as seen in very-long baseline interferometric radio images, as well as increases in the radio flux and rapid changes in polarization. This indicates the gamma-rays are coming from a region 1 to 10 pc away from the black hole, outside the BLR. How such a huge amount of energy can be transported this far from the central engine is a mystery. - Fermi Gamma Ray Space Telescope


Source #2

Using Source #2, and to be objective, all one need to do is *ALSO* draw another set of eyeballs where the label says "Supermassive Black Hole" and "Accretion Disk" and name them "Theoretical Eyes". Then even another set of eyes labeled Plasma Physics (Electrodynamic: Filaments, Plasmoids, Plasma Tori, Vortices) and you're done! An easy reference example of "If not a black hole, then what?" - at your fingertips.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Christiaan » Thu May 02, 2019 2:13 am

D_Archer wrote:
Christiaan wrote:Hello...very new here, first reply :-) ...

... Where is the universal wall socket :-)) ?

Thank you kindly...


Hi Christiaan,

In the Electric Universe "black holes" do not exist. The best resource is Stephen Crothers, he has destroyed the "black hole" "theory" thoroughly. They are not seen as theoretical by EU but nonsense/fantasy.

EU adheres to electric laws (Maxwell etc) but also to the laws of thermodynamics, there is no need for a wall socket, energy is never destroyed but always recycled.*

Also we as tiny humans can not bound the Universe, because the Universe is all that there is. In the electric universe the universe is fractal (ever repeating). This is very good because plasma dynamics are scaelable from the smallest scale to the largest.

Regards,
Daniel


Thank you so much Daniel...blackholes sorted then...now...electric laws + thermodynamics + fractal has my mind racing uncomfortably...so energy recycled/not destroyed also then says that it is 'constant' (duh! I know...)...meaning what we perceive to be extreme Voltages n Amperes n Coulomb is also then extremely subjective?...that which makes up our perception n tests n consciousness is also fractally entwined, there is no way you can be objective to any degree, your very existence runs on/in/through this fractal-charge-wave-thing-of-beauty?...and the 'same' energy can be scaled up or down with Vol and Amp simply sliding up n down cosmically? (Cosmic transformers powering a dimension type thing) And as said our measurement-interpretation-scale of V and A is likewise on a fractal sliding scale...there is no absolute...my mind is bending...and I'm feeling nauseous...incredible...gobsmacked.
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby webtrekker » Thu May 02, 2019 10:05 am

Christiaan wrote:
D_Archer wrote:
Christiaan wrote:Hello...very new here, first reply :-) ...

... Where is the universal wall socket :-)) ?

Thank you kindly...


Hi Christiaan,

In the Electric Universe "black holes" do not exist. The best resource is Stephen Crothers, he has destroyed the "black hole" "theory" thoroughly. They are not seen as theoretical by EU but nonsense/fantasy.

EU adheres to electric laws (Maxwell etc) but also to the laws of thermodynamics, there is no need for a wall socket, energy is never destroyed but always recycled.*

Also we as tiny humans can not bound the Universe, because the Universe is all that there is. In the electric universe the universe is fractal (ever repeating). This is very good because plasma dynamics are scaelable from the smallest scale to the largest.

Regards,
Daniel


Thank you so much Daniel...blackholes sorted then...now...electric laws + thermodynamics + fractal has my mind racing uncomfortably...so energy recycled/not destroyed also then says that it is 'constant' (duh! I know...)...meaning what we perceive to be extreme Voltages n Amperes n Coulomb is also then extremely subjective?...that which makes up our perception n tests n consciousness is also fractally entwined, there is no way you can be objective to any degree, your very existence runs on/in/through this fractal-charge-wave-thing-of-beauty?...and the 'same' energy can be scaled up or down with Vol and Amp simply sliding up n down cosmically? (Cosmic transformers powering a dimension type thing) And as said our measurement-interpretation-scale of V and A is likewise on a fractal sliding scale...there is no absolute...my mind is bending...and I'm feeling nauseous...incredible...gobsmacked.



Eh?
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby webtrekker » Thu May 02, 2019 10:11 am

My new, soon to be a bestseller, will explain all you need to know about black holes, the big bang, and... everything.

'An Inconvenient Guth' will shortly be available from a bookseller near you!

;-)
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