So if not a black hole, then what?

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So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Open Mind » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:13 pm

For those who aren't able to fast track they're knowledge of the electrical universe, and struggle with fundamental elements of the theory, but are thoroughly intrigued, Can any or all help us comprehend what we're really seeing in this supposed 'final proof of black holes' image?

I'd like to have some kind of answer to the hypothetical cosmologist who reals in agony if I suggest that I'm not completely sold on what, to his thinking is completely confirmed fact.

I understand that the concept of a singularity which is all mass collapsing into a single point of infinite mass and density, is apparently just a mathematician, smoking a joint and then dividing things by zero and coming up with an explanation to impress his date.

I think I understand how they got there, and I also comprehend that manipulating filters and reading the 'noise' is like the shaman throwing up the bones and telling you your future.

But I'd like to understand more specifically what it actually is in the picture, regardless of how they processed the image.

And dumb it down for the unelectrically minded. lol.

Possible? I had to ask.

Thanks
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby D_Archer » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:30 pm

If anything we are looking at a plasmoid.

They said in the press release it was easier to observer than Sag A, this is because we look at Sag A from the side, we can look at M87 down the barrel.

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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby beekeeper » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:16 pm

Greetings open mind I really appreciate your analogies :D
If nothing can travel faster than light, how can darkness escape it
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Cargo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 pm

A telescope by definition is an optical device. It's for seeing things as they are seen optically with the visible light spectrum (that's an Electric term). A microscope is an inverted telescope.
A radio telescope is a misnomer. There are no optics and nothing can be seen without inferring radio wave forms into an image. By using the noise from 100^100 radio waveform recordings from 10's of spread out locations, the focus of the noise becomes so strong, that almost anything can be 'imaged' from it. An X, or a Y, or a Z, or a O.

Since the filtering algorithms were designed to filter out a hole, because the simulations were based on this assumption, that a hole is there, then eventually as they operate on the noise, they will create a hole. But in reality, there is no such thing.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby AdmiralAken1999 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm

It's frustrating that no one in the mainstream will explain the above ^^ and that the whole public has now eaten this image up as fact. It's sad really.
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Christiaan » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:42 am

Hello...very new here, first reply :-) and have been following the EU for a year now and every bit of it makes sense into my every cell of my body...since v early childhood I have been fascinated by magnetism, electro-magnetism (and also gold).

Thankfully a black hole thread is already up (RT.com published a 'black hole' pic today 11/04/2019) and I read the above posts though would appreciate where I could go read up on the EU view of black holes (exist/not exist/only theory)? Unless the answer is short, i.e. it does not exist and is only a theoretical thing?

And if I may...I also missed reading WHERE does the electricity INPUT originate in our universe (that gives charge to the birkeland currents)? Where is the universal wall socket :-)) ?

Thank you kindly...
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby D_Archer » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:07 am

Christiaan wrote:Hello...very new here, first reply :-) and have been following the EU for a year now and every bit of it makes sense into my every cell of my body...since v early childhood I have been fascinated by magnetism, electro-magnetism (and also gold).

Thankfully a black hole thread is already up (RT.com published a 'black hole' pic today 11/04/2019) and I read the above posts though would appreciate where I could go read up on the EU view of black holes (exist/not exist/only theory)? Unless the answer is short, i.e. it does not exist and is only a theoretical thing?

And if I may...I also missed reading WHERE does the electricity INPUT originate in our universe (that gives charge to the birkeland currents)? Where is the universal wall socket :-)) ?

Thank you kindly...


Hi Christiaan,

In the Electric Universe "black holes" do not exist. The best resource is Stephen Crothers, he has destroyed the "black hole" "theory" thoroughly. They are not seen as theoretical by EU but nonsense/fantasy.

EU adheres to electric laws (Maxwell etc) but also to the laws of thermodynamics, there is no need for a wall socket, energy is never destroyed but always recycled.*

Also we as tiny humans can not bound the Universe, because the Universe is all that there is. In the electric universe the universe is fractal (ever repeating). This is very good because plasma dynamics are scaelable from the smallest scale to the largest.

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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Zyxzevn » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:55 am

It could be a planet near a star. The resolution is far too small to be certain.
The value of the data spans something like 3 pixels, extremely zoomed in.
That is why it looks like a zoomed-in UFO.
Well, I know far better images of UFO's than this one.

We do not even know whether it is exactly in focus or the result of interference.
You need 10 times the resolution to see more of what kind of object it is.
More ** from zyxzevn at: Paradigm change and C@
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby LunarSabbathTruth » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:31 am

AdmiralAken1999 wrote:It's frustrating that no one in the mainstream will explain the above ^^ and that the whole public has now eaten this image up as fact. It's sad really.


The media is calling it a "photograph". :mrgreen:
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby allynh » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:52 am

This is the PBS Newshour episode discussing the find. Notice how they keep saying "photograph" when it is a computer generated image from radio telescope data.

What the first photograph of a black hole can reveal about space
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dueX8aVzS6w

Plus, I was appalled by the cartoon that Brian Greene used to set up the piece. Everything he said was consensus dogma.

This is from the Event Horizon site.

Astronomers Capture First Image of a Black Hole
https://eventhorizontelescope.org
An international collaboration presents paradigm-shifting observations of the gargantuan black hole at the heart of distant galaxy Messier 87

The Event Horizon Telescope (EHT) — a planet-scale array of eight ground-based radio telescopes forged through international collaboration — was designed to capture images of a black hole. Today, in coordinated press conferences across the globe, EHT researchers reveal that they have succeeded, unveiling the first direct visual evidence of a supermassive black hole and its shadow.

This breakthrough was announced today in a series of six papers published in a special issue of The Astrophysical Journal Letters. The image reveals the black hole at the center of Messier 87 [1], a massive galaxy in the nearby Virgo galaxy cluster. This black hole resides 55 million light-years from Earth and has a mass 6.5 billion times that of the Sun [2].

The EHT links telescopes around the globe to form an Earth-sized virtual telescope with unprecedented sensitivity and resolution [3]. The EHT is the result of years of international collaboration, and offers scientists a new way to study the most extreme objects in the Universe predicted by Einstein’s general relativity during the centennial year of the historic experiment that first confirmed the theory [4].

"We have taken the first picture of a black hole," said EHT project director Sheperd S. Doeleman of the Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian. "This is an extraordinary scientific feat accomplished by a team of more than 200 researchers."

Black holes are extraordinary cosmic objects with enormous masses but extremely compact sizes. The presence of these objects affects their environment in extreme ways, warping spacetime and super-heating any surrounding material.

"If immersed in a bright region, like a disc of glowing gas, we expect a black hole to create a dark region similar to a shadow — something predicted by Einstein’s general relativity that we’ve never seen before, explained chair of the EHT Science Council Heino Falcke of Radboud University, the Netherlands. "This shadow, caused by the gravitational bending and capture of light by the event horizon, reveals a lot about the nature of these fascinating objects and allowed us to measure the enormous mass of M87’s black hole."

Multiple calibration and imaging methods have revealed a ring-like structure with a dark central region — the black hole’s shadow — that persisted over multiple independent EHT observations.

"Once we were sure we had imaged the shadow, we could compare our observations to extensive computer models that include the physics of warped space, superheated matter and strong magnetic fields. Many of the features of the observed image match our theoretical understanding surprisingly well," remarks Paul T.P. Ho, EHT Board member and Director of the East Asian Observatory [5]. "This makes us confident about the interpretation of our observations, including our estimation of the black hole’s mass."

Creating the EHT was a formidable challenge which required upgrading and connecting a worldwide network of eight pre-existing telescopes deployed at a variety of challenging high-altitude sites. These locations included volcanoes in Hawai`i and Mexico, mountains in Arizona and the Spanish Sierra Nevada, the Chilean Atacama Desert, and Antarctica.

The EHT observations use a technique called very-long-baseline interferometry (VLBI) which synchronises telescope facilities around the world and exploits the rotation of our planet to form one huge, Earth-size telescope observing at a wavelength of 1.3 mm. VLBI allows the EHT to achieve an angular resolution of 20 micro-arcseconds — enough to read a newspaper in New York from a sidewalk café in Paris [6].

The telescopes contributing to this result were ALMA, APEX, the IRAM 30-meter telescope, the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope, the Large Millimeter Telescope Alfonso Serrano, the Submillimeter Array, the Submillimeter Telescope, and the South Pole Telescope [7]. Petabytes of raw data from the telescopes were combined by highly specialised supercomputers hosted by the Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy and MIT Haystack Observatory.

The construction of the EHT and the observations announced today represent the culmination of decades of observational, technical, and theoretical work. This example of global teamwork required close collaboration by researchers from around the world. Thirteen partner institutions worked together to create the EHT, using both pre-existing infrastructure and support from a variety of agencies. Key funding was provided by the US National Science Foundation (NSF), the EU's European Research Council (ERC), and funding agencies in East Asia.

"We have achieved something presumed to be impossible just a generation ago," concluded Doeleman. "Breakthroughs in technology, connections between the world's best radio observatories, and innovative algorithms all came together to open an entirely new window on black holes and the event horizon."


Notes

[1] The shadow of a black hole is the closest we can come to an image of the black hole itself, a completely dark object from which light cannot escape. The black hole’s boundary — the event horizon from which the EHT takes its name — is around 2.5 times smaller than the shadow it casts and measures just under 40 billion km across.

[2] Supermassive black holes are relatively tiny astronomical objects — which has made them impossible to directly observe until now. As a black hole’s size is proportional to its mass, the more massive a black hole, the larger the shadow. Thanks to its enormous mass and relative proximity, M87’s black hole was predicted to be one of the largest viewable from Earth — making it a perfect target for the EHT.

[3] Although the telescopes are not physically connected, they are able to synchronize their recorded data with atomic clocks — hydrogen masers — which precisely time their observations. These observations were collected at a wavelength of 1.3 mm during a 2017 global campaign. Each telescope of the EHT produced enormous amounts of data — roughly 350 terabytes per day — which was stored on high-performance helium-filled hard drives. These data were flown to highly specialised supercomputers — known as correlators — at the Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy and MIT Haystack Observatory to be combined. They were then painstakingly converted into an image using novel computational tools developed by the collaboration.

[4] 100 years ago, two expeditions set out for the island of Príncipe off the coast of Africa and Sobra in Brazil to observe the 1919 solar eclipse, with the goal of testing general relativity by seeing if starlight would be bent around the limb of the sun, as predicted by Einstein. In an echo of those observations, the EHT has sent team members to some of the world's highest and isolated radio facilities to once again test our understanding of gravity.

[5] The East Asian Observatory (EAO) partner on the EHT project represents the participation of many regions in Asia, including China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, India and Indonesia.

[6] Future EHT observations will see substantially increased sensitivity with the participation of the IRAM NOEMA Observatory, the Greenland Telescope and the Kitt Peak Telescope.

[7] ALMA is a partnership of the European Southern Observatory (ESO; Europe, representing its member states), the U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF), and the National Institutes of Natural Sciences (NINS) of Japan, together with the National Research Council (Canada), the Ministry of Science and Technology (MOST; Taiwan), Academia Sinica Institute of Astronomy and Astrophysics (ASIAA; Taiwan), and Korea Astronomy and Space Science Institute (KASI; Republic of Korea), in cooperation with the Republic of Chile. APEX is operated by ESO, the 30-meter telescope is operated by IRAM (the IRAM Partner Organizations are MPG (Germany), CNRS (France) and IGN (Spain)), the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope is operated by the EAO, the Large Millimeter Telescope Alfonso Serrano is operated by INAOE and UMass, the Submillimeter Array is operated by SAO and ASIAA and the Submillimeter Telescope is operated by the Arizona Radio Observatory (ARO). The South Pole Telescope is operated by the University of Chicago with specialized EHT instrumentation provided by the University of Arizona.

More Information

This research was presented in a series of six papers published today in a special issue of The Astrophysical Journal Letters, along with a Focus Issue that summarizes the published studies.

Press release images in higher resolution (4000x2330 pixels) can be found here in PNG (16-bit), and JPG (8-bit) format. The highest-quality image (7416x4320 pixels, TIF, 16-bit, 180 Mb) can be obtained from repositories of our partners, NSF and ESO. A summary of latest press and media resources can be found on this page.

The EHT collaboration involves more than 200 researchers from Africa, Asia, Europe, North and South America. The international collaboration is working to capture the most detailed black hole images ever by creating a virtual Earth-sized telescope. Supported by considerable international investment, the EHT links existing telescopes using novel systems — creating a fundamentally new instrument with the highest angular resolving power that has yet been achieved.

The individual telescopes involved are; ALMA, APEX, the IRAM 30-meter Telescope, the IRAM NOEMA Observatory, the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope (JCMT), the Large Millimeter Telescope Alfonso Serrano (LMT), the Submillimeter Array (SMA), the Submillimeter Telescope (SMT), the South Pole Telescope (SPT), the Kitt Peak Telescope, and the Greenland Telescope (GLT).

The EHT collaboration consists of 13 stakeholder institutes; the Academia Sinica Institute of Astronomy and Astrophysics, the University of Arizona, the University of Chicago, the East Asian Observatory, Goethe-Universitaet Frankfurt, Institut de Radioastronomie Millimétrique, Large Millimeter Telescope, Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy, MIT Haystack Observatory, National Astronomical Observatory of Japan, Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, Radboud University and the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory.

Watch any of the videos by Stephen Crothers for discussions on Black Holes. Here's the latest.

Stephen Crothers: LIGO -- Its Claims for Black Holes and Gravitational Waves | EU2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev10ywLFq6E
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:16 am

"The Black Hole at the Heart of Astronomy" gives an electric universe description of the electrical source of the radio noise at the center of our galaxy.

http://www.holoscience.com/wp/the-black ... astronomy/


Image
"This image, taken by the Very Large Array of ground based telescopes at radio wavelengths, shows a bright source at the centre of the Milky Way that is thought to surround a black hole...The structure known as the Galactic Centre Radio Arc (upper left) is described as “hot plasma flowing along lines of magnetic field.”"

Much nicer before they processed it to death. (:
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:34 am

Stephen Smith notes that the Black Hole theory did not predict or explain the coherent jets emitted along the axis of some galaxies:

"Cygnus A is one of the first radio sources that revealed “jets and lobes” accelerating out of its nucleus. They are thought to result from material falling into a central black hole, where it is torn apart. Subatomic “debris” is then propelled out of the galactic core by some means not understood in consensus circles. It is suggested that spinning magnetic fields surround black holes, but the theory cannot be tested.

Among the many difficulties faced by mainstream astrophysicists is how magnetic fields can align and compress particle emissions into jets that maintain coherency. Radio jets from some galaxies reach out for over one million light years before they “disperse” into vast clouds of radio emitting particles, larger than their galactic sources."

Image

What is at the center of electric galaxies?

"An important factor missing in their observations is that the magnetic fields mentioned in the press release are electromagnetic and not simply magnetic. The only way to generate a magnetic field is with the flow of electric charge, or electricity. As written in previous Pictures of the Day, radio-bright celestial objects are not created in gravity fields, no matter how powerful. Laboratory experiments most easily produce them by accelerating charged particles through an electric field. Rather than gravity, an electromagnetic entity called a “plasmoid” is responsible for jets, lobes and other objects in space."

Image
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Webbman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:43 am

using the appropriate "waves" they can find what they want. If that doesnt work apply filters to remove unwanted data. If that doesnt work then cgi.

i dont have much faith in their work and certainly a black spot on a "compiled" picture doesnt necessarily mean a back hole by any stretch.

as ive explained in the other thread underneath the photosphere our own star is black viewed under numerous filters and there is no reason to believe in an extreme high energy environment like a galaxy core that a sun cannot be "fully spotted" which could distort the photosphere into a magnetic shape like a torus/ring. Plasma follows the magnetism after all and most of the light comes from the photosphere.

so a "black sun" is quite possible and theres nothing magical, evil, or supernatural about that. The only difference between ours and one like that is the shape & size of the stars atmosphere and overall power.
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Phorce » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am

Hi. I was drawn here after watching various political twitter accounts that I follow, who usually have impressive investigative skills and "BS" detectors, post about this "black hole" without question. This seems to be what gravity based science does every few years. Trumpet some "breakthrough" that proves their wonderful credentials. Then its discredited later on and you see zero news reports about it, or if you do no one is talking about it (apart from here) :lol: . Weird :? .
Exploration and discovery without honest investigation of "extraordinary" results leads to a Double Bind (Bateson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind ) that creates loss of hope and depression. No more Double Binds !
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Re: So if not a black hole, then what?

Unread postby Michael Mozina » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:21 am

Open Mind wrote:For those who aren't able to fast track they're knowledge of the electrical universe, and struggle with fundamental elements of the theory, but are thoroughly intrigued, Can any or all help us comprehend what we're really seeing in this supposed 'final proof of black holes' image?


In EU/PC theory, It's entirely possible that you're looking at a "supermassive" object, one that might even contain an event horizon. There's nothing about EU/PC theory that precludes the existence of massive objects.

IMO however the Pauli exclusion principle prohibits such an object from becoming a "singularity' (mass condensed to a point like object).

The one aspect that is rather suspect about the mainstream models of black holes is that their mass estimates of the objects ares based on luminosity in X-rays without respect to the amount of electrical current present in the environment. That's undoubtedly causing the mainstream to overestimate the amount of mass that is present in such objects.

In EU/PC theory It is however entirely possible that the objects in the images are exactly what they appears to be, namely massive objects with event horizons.
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