Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby spagyr » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:15 am

re neilwilkes..."If the "laws of the Universe" have no direction in time, why does the real world?" I've been pondering this, if time did reverse in our world I don't think it is possible to measure. If you shot back to 6 yrs old then that is what you would be, there would be no way of determining if this 'new' 6 yr old was in any way related to the old one. You can see why I am still pondering!
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:20 pm

neilwilkes wrote:...the whole point of trying to turn time into a geometric to me is not so much spectacularly intuitive as spectacularly wrong...

I totally agree, and IMO, this is the first mistake that they make. If you don't realize that an error has been made, you'll have a hard time spotting the next one. So this is a necessary piece for them, since it camouflages subsequent errors.

A "dimension" represents a quantity plotted in a coordinate system, and you get a total of 3 of them (X, Y, and Z). Of course, thanks to Descartes, we can use geometry to analyze non-spatial entities, by replacing one or more physical dimensions with abstract quantities. For example, we can use X and Y to represent a (flattened) surface of the Earth, and then we can use the Z axis to represent average income of the inhabitants of that part of the Earth. Stuff like this can be very useful. But you get a maximum of 3 dimensions when playing with coordinate systems. Throwing in a 4th dimension doesn't make it a fancier concept -- it's simply a broken metaphor, and now you don't have a tangible concept of how to represent any quantity relative to some other quantity. If somebody makes a mistake when doing calculations in 4 dimensions, how do you know? What are the rules? Where are the axioms, postulates, and theorems of hyperdimensionality? When people elaborate on such concepts, the issue doesn't get clearer -- it gets more abstract, more complex, and more non-physical. Such musings are not bounded by the characteristics of the reality they pretend to represent -- the only limit is the benefit of the doubt you grant to the speaker.

As others have noted, this is similar to the idea that space can be warped, or that it can expand or contract. As Tesla said, if space is defined as nothingness, it has no attributes -- there is nothing in there that can get warped. The only thing getting warped is your mind. A coordinate system is a mental construct used to measure & analyze relationships among quantities. The matter doesn't know that it's in a coordinate system, or that it could simultaneously be in any number of them, depending on how many people had established how many frames of reference for however many different purposes. The matter simply is what it is. And then, if there isn't even any matter there, because it's empty space, there is nothing left to get warped. Hence the only warping is quite entirely within the mind of the GR proponent.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Higgsy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:39 am

CharlesChandler wrote:A "dimension" represents a quantity plotted in a coordinate system, and you get a total of 3 of them (X, Y, and Z). Of course, thanks to Descartes, we can use geometry to analyze non-spatial entities, by replacing one or more physical dimensions with abstract quantities. For example, we can use X and Y to represent a (flattened) surface of the Earth, and then we can use the Z axis to represent average income of the inhabitants of that part of the Earth. Stuff like this can be very useful. But you get a maximum of 3 dimensions when playing with coordinate systems.

What on earth makes you think that? People have been doing n-dimensional geometry (where n>3) for over 150 years and even Descartes recognised that it is possible.
Throwing in a 4th dimension doesn't make it a fancier concept -- it's simply a broken metaphor, and now you don't have a tangible concept of how to represent any quantity relative to some other quantity.

What on earth makes you think n-dimensional geometry is a "metaphor"? And as for representing quantities, it is always possible to represent the relevant subset of dimensions if that's what floats your boat. But the geometry of hyperdimensional spaces is standard undergraduate stuff.
If somebody makes a mistake when doing calculations in 4 dimensions, how do you know? What are the rules?

Huh? you don't think there are rules for n-dimensional geometry? Surely when someone makes a mistake, you know in the same way as you know in any branch of maths. You don't think people prove mathematical theorems by building physical representations do you? You don't think people fill balls with water to "prove" that the volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi*r^3?
Where are the axioms, postulates, and theorems of hyperdimensionality?

Euclidean geometry is axiomatised with the Hilbert or Tarski axioms. As for the theorems, get any sufficiently advanced textbook on synthetic or analytic geometry.
When people elaborate on such concepts, the issue doesn't get clearer -- it gets more abstract, more complex, and more non-physical. Such musings are not bounded by the characteristics of the reality they pretend to represent -- the only limit is the benefit of the doubt you grant to the speaker.
Your assumption is that geometry is limited to three dimensions, but you are wrong. Any mathematics can be used to describe physical phenomena, and whether or not the description is accurate depends on whether the predictions made by the theory are actually observed in practice.

As others have noted, this is similar to the idea that space can be warped, or that it can expand or contract. As Tesla said, if space is defined as nothingness, it has no attributes -- there is nothing in there that can get warped. The only thing getting warped is your mind. A coordinate system is a mental construct used to measure & analyze relationships among quantities. The matter doesn't know that it's in a coordinate system, or that it could simultaneously be in any number of them, depending on how many people had established how many frames of reference for however many different purposes. The matter simply is what it is. And then, if there isn't even any matter there, because it's empty space, there is nothing left to get warped. Hence the only warping is quite entirely within the mind of the GR proponent.
Yep, youi missed out on the whole Riemannian geometry thing. How do you know that space has the properties of R3 - 3 dimensional Euclidean space?
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:56 pm

Higgsy wrote:The geometry of hyperdimensional spaces is standard undergraduate stuff.

Sometimes the standard is gibberish.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Higgsy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:17 pm

CharlesChandler wrote:
Higgsy wrote:The geometry of hyperdimensional spaces is standard undergraduate stuff.

Sometimes the standard is gibberish.
Content free reply to a content-rich post. Charles basically says "Charles doesn't understand it, so no-one else should be able to either". How silly of Charles.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby seasmith » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:33 pm

`
Higgsy wrote:
How do you know that space has the properties of R3 - 3 dimensional Euclidean space?


Because we are talking about SPACE. Have you ever built any thing in 4 or 5 dimensions ?
Didn't think so. You are lost in mathematical constructs, which can be useful as heuristic devices, but then you have to return to the real world, which is where most folks exist.
You may be thinking of something referred to as "counter-space", which is regularly used in electronic calculations to explain how electric and magnetic fields exist in the same space.
Study up and get back to me,

or just descend into childish tantrums, as you seem wont to lately ...
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Higgsy » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:04 pm

seasmith wrote:`
Higgsy wrote:
How do you know that space has the properties of R3 - 3 dimensional Euclidean space?


Because we are talking about SPACE.
How do you know it's Euclidean? And we were talking about spacetime. Do keep up.
You may be thinking of something referred to as "counter-space", which is regularly used in electronic calculations to explain how electric and magnetic fields exist in the same space.
What on earth are you bleating about?
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Cargo » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:25 pm

What dimension is space-time from? The 8th! lol..
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Metryq » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:01 am

Cargo wrote:What dimension is space-time from? The 8th! lol..

"Planet 10, real soon!"
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:12 pm

Higgsy wrote:How do you know that space has the properties of R3 - 3 dimensional Euclidean space?

seasmith wrote:Because we are talking about SPACE.

Higgsy wrote:How do you know it's Euclidean? And we were talking about spacetime. Do keep up.

How do you know that space is non-Euclidean?

Here I side with Tesla in that empty space is nothingness, which has no properties. It doesn't know that somebody has established an origin for a coordinate system, much less in how many dimensions. The coordinate system is in our minds. If it helps framing problems in solvable ways, we use it. We shift around the point of origin, and set the orientation of the axes, to reduce the complexity of whatever problem we're trying to solve -- without affecting space, or any matter it might contain. Space is not Euclidean, nor is it non-Euclidean -- space is nothingness. The math is in our minds.

Of course, one can argue that if a given mathematical system works in the real world, there must be something to it, beyond our own imaginations. But for that to support your position, you'd have to demonstrate that hyperdimensional math can solve real world problems that cannot be solved more easily with simpler constructs. Good luck on that.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby seasmith » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:04 pm

CharlesChandler wrote:
Higgsy wrote:How do you know that space has the properties of R3 - 3 dimensional Euclidean space?

seasmith wrote:Because we are talking about SPACE.

Higgsy wrote:How do you know it's Euclidean? And we were talking about spacetime. Do keep up.

How do you know that space is non-Euclidean?

Here I side with Tesla in that empty space is ...


incidental footnote:
... that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance, of a tenuity beyond conception and filling all space - the Akasha or luminiferous ether - which is acted upon by the life-giving Prana or creative force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles, all things and phenomena.
The primary substance, thrown into infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding, the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance.

Man's Greatest Achievement
Nikola Tesla
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Higgsy » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:09 pm

CharlesChandler wrote:How do you know that space is non-Euclidean?
The general geometry of the manifold is non-Euclidean. A Euclidean is a specific instance of the general.
Here I side with Tesla in that empty space is nothingness, which has no properties. It doesn't know that somebody has established an origin for a coordinate system, much less in how many dimensions. The coordinate system is in our minds. If it helps framing problems in solvable ways, we use it. We shift around the point of origin, and set the orientation of the axes, to reduce the complexity of whatever problem we're trying to solve -- without affecting space, or any matter it might contain. Space is not Euclidean, nor is it non-Euclidean -- space is nothingness. The math is in our minds.
And yet, despite this claim, you treat space as though it were Euclidean. So while explicitly claiming that it is neither, you make a strong implicit claim that it is universally Euclidean.

Of course, one can argue that if a given mathematical system works in the real world, there must be something to it, beyond our own imaginations. But for that to support your position, you'd have to demonstrate that hyperdimensional math can solve real world problems that cannot be solved more easily with simpler constructs. Good luck on that.

GR, which explains dynamic observations of free falling bodies better than any other theory, is explicitly hyper dimensional and non-Euclidean.

But there are a vast array of practical problems which use hyperdimensions. If you want to solve a problem about the variation over time and space of an electric field (or any vector field) you are already solving an eight dimensional problem.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:25 pm

Higgsy wrote:GR, which explains dynamic observations of free falling bodies better than any other theory, is explicitly hyper dimensional and non-Euclidean.

Really?

Higgsy wrote:But there are a vast array of practical problems which use hyperdimensions. If you want to solve a problem about the variation over time and space of an electric field (or any vector field) you are already solving an eight dimensional problem.

My point here is just semantic, though there is an underlying conceptual issue if you're talking about space and/or time being non-Euclidean. If you're just talking about solving an equation in more than 3 variables, and where there can be no more than 3 spatial values at play, since regardless of the geometric system, all locations in space can be identified with just 3 values, I don't see the utility of calling those other variables "dimensions" -- that just gets people trying to visualize something that cannot possibly be visualized. To me, those are all just variables, and are only "dimensions" if they are distances from an origin in a coordinate system. I guess you'll say that hyperdimensions are distances from an origin in a hyperdimensional coordinate system. ;) But if the analysis of the relationships among those values is abstract, I don't see the utility of using spatial terminology.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby jacmac » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:04 pm

The real value of time being the fourth dimension is:
"they believed that story, lets make up some more!"
Now we have string theory, and multiverses, etc.
What will they think of next... WHITE HOLES !
Ha Ha.
OOPS, they already have.
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Re: Yet more mainstream problems - Gaia team this time

Unread postby Cargo » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:46 pm

Holy Cow, I can believe I was right. It is the 8th dimension!

the variation over time and space of an electric field..[is] an eight dimensional problem
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