Giants

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Giants

Unread postby Total Science » Tue May 05, 2009 1:06 pm

Image

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." -- Genesis 6:4

"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." -- Numbers 13:31

"Yet destroyed I the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars, and he was strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit from above, and his roots from beneath." -- Amos 2:9

"These were the strongest generation of earth-born mortals, the strongest, and they fought against the strongest, the beast men living within the mountains, and terribly they destroyed them. I was in the company of these men....'" -- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book I

"...a lordship...is the government which is declared by Homer to have prevailed among the Cyclopes." -- Plato, philosopher, Laws: Book III, 360 B.C.

"The sculptures carved above the pillars refer either to the birth of Zeus and the battle between the gods and the giants, or to the Trojan war and the capture of Ilium." -- Pausanias, geographer, Description of Greece: Argolis

"There still remain, however, parts of the city wall [of Mycenae], including the gate, upon which stand lions. These, too, are said to be the work of the Cyclopes, who made for Proetus the wall at Tiryns." -- Pausanias, geographer, Description of Greece: Argolis

"There is also an ancient sanctuary called the altar of the Cyclopes, and they sacrifice to the Cyclopes upon it." -- Pausanius, geographer, Desciption of Greece: Argolis, 2nd century

Image

"This is the city which is mentioned in Scripture as Baalath in the vicinity of the Lebanon, which Solomon built for the daughter of Pharaoh. The place is constructed with stones of enormous size." -- Benjamin of Tudela, geographer, 1160

"When we compare the ruins of Baalbek with those of many ancient cities which we visited in Italy, Greece, Egypt, and in other parts of Asia (and Africa), we cannot help thinking them to be the remains of the boldest plan we ever saw attempted in architecture. Is it not strange then, that the age and the undertaker of the works, in which solidity and duration have been so remarkably consulted, should be a matter of such obscurity...?" -- Robert Wood, geographer/archaelogist, 1757
"The ancients possessed a plasma cosmology and physics themselves, and from laboratory experiments, were well familiar with the patterns exhibited by Peratt's petroglyphs." -- Joseph P. Farrell, author, 2007
Total Science
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:10 am

Re: Giants

Unread postby Total Science » Tue May 05, 2009 1:11 pm

Image

http://www.varchive.org/itb/giants.htm

The traditions of peoples all over the world are quite unanimous in asserting that an an earlier time a race of giants lived on the earth, that most of the race were destroyed in great catastrophes; that they were of cruel nature and were furiously fighting among themselves; that the last of them were exterminated when after a cataclysm a migration of peoples brought the forebears of the peoples of today to their new homelands.

The Japanese narrate that when their forefathers after a great catastrophe about two and a half or three thousand years ago, came from the continent and invaded the isles, they found there long-legged, furry giants. These giants were called Ainu. The forefathers of the Japanese were defeated in the first encounter, but in the second encounter they were victorious.

Ixtlilxochitl described the wandering of peoples of the western hemisphere in the four ages of the world. The first age came to its end in the Flood. In the second age, called “the sun of the earthquake,” there lived the generation of the giants, which was destroyed in the cataclysm that terminated this age. The third period was “the sun of the wind,” called so because at the end of this period terrible hurricanes annihilated everything. The new inhabitants of the new world were Ulme and Xicalauca who came from the east to find a foothold at Potouchan: here they met a number of giants, the last survivors of the second catastrophe. The fourth age was called “the fire sun,” because of the great fire that put an end to this epoch. At that time the Toltecs arrived in the land of Anahuac, put to flight by the catastrophe: they wandered for 104 years before they settled in their new home.

Also F. L. Gomara in his Conquista de Mexico, in the chapter about “cinco soles que son edades,” wrote:

The second sun perished when the sky fell upon the earth; the collapse killed all the people and every living thing; and they say that giants lived in those days, and that to them belong the bones that our Spaniards have found while digging mines and tombs. From their measure and proportion it seems that those men were twenty hands tall—a very great stature, but quite certain.(1)


Image
"The ancients possessed a plasma cosmology and physics themselves, and from laboratory experiments, were well familiar with the patterns exhibited by Peratt's petroglyphs." -- Joseph P. Farrell, author, 2007
Total Science
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:10 am

Re: Giants

Unread postby Kapriel » Tue May 19, 2009 8:02 am

What interests me about the Giants of ancient legends is that no matter which country you get the story from, they are all agreed on the peculiarly murderous character of this race, and that while they were fairly successful in murdering one another, they were relatively easily beat by those of other, smaller races. Even the Titans-myth attests to the superior power of the smaller, younger generation of "gods".

I don't believe these giants of myth and legend were real men. There are giant bones buried here and there, to be sure, and it's possible there were races of taller people from time to time, but the myths about giants must refer to celestial events (especially since they are linked to cataclysms), or else they refer to the tall figures epitomized by cave art and statues such as those on Easter Island...or if not from the same period of time as those, than from an earlier. A common detail of these myths was that these giants could not reproduce themselves without stealing women from the smaller races, and they were not known to have women at all among their own race. As we all know, this is biologically impossible. The theme of one god abducting a female from elsewhere is common in mythology, particularly among the Greeks, and has its genesis in celestial goings-on, just as every other myth does.

A final detail of these giants-myths that comes to mind is that they were not above eating each other, or other human beings. This, also, is a common feature of the myths derived from celestial events. (Cronus ate his children, for instance). Cultural commonalities across the world tells me this is part of the world-myth, not part of real history. Probably any real races of giants that might have periodically cropped up on the earth were feared and persecuted into extinction by any group that found them, and all because they were thought to be the evil, murderous race of legend. I imagine the same would have happened to any group that had some feature assoociated with myth, such as pronounced cannine teeth, for instance, because of their resemblance to vampires.

The story of Joshua and his scouts encountering a land of giants is interesting in that it includes giant-sized natural foods growing there as well as giant sized people. I wonder if any portion of that tale could be true. Certainly if it had been, the Israelits would have cultivated the grapes they found there, and taken this gene pool of fabulous fruits with them...but they didn't. Strange, I thought.
Doubt is not proof.
User avatar
Kapriel
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:17 pm

Re: Giants

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue May 19, 2009 1:33 pm

Hi Kapriel,
You are conflating too many 'giants'. The Titans, for example, are a separate group from the Gigantes. Also one should not read myths etc literally. The ancients did not write the way we do but used symbology which was/is best understood from the perspective of an altered state of consciousness, e.g. meditation. Chronos did not literally eat literal children. And, in any case, he later regurgitated them.
Do you have a reference for the giant food in Joshua?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Giants

Unread postby Total Science » Tue May 26, 2009 9:53 am

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 170641.htm

Using such diverse sources as old ship logs, literary texts, tax accounts, newly translated legal documents and even mounted trophies, Census researchers are piecing together images - some flickering, others in high definition - of fish of such sizes, abundance and distribution in ages past that they stagger modern imaginations.

They are also documenting the timelines over which those giant marine life populations declined.

For example, Census scientists say the size of freshwater fish caught by Europeans started shrinking in medieval times.
"The ancients possessed a plasma cosmology and physics themselves, and from laboratory experiments, were well familiar with the patterns exhibited by Peratt's petroglyphs." -- Joseph P. Farrell, author, 2007
Total Science
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:10 am

Re: Giants

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue May 26, 2009 10:39 am

Hi Total Science,
Here's a link to a BBC story related to your Science Daily thing:
Study unlocks history of the seas
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8058351.stm
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Giants

Unread postby Total Science » Thu May 28, 2009 3:31 pm

Thx Grey Cloud.

Image

"These were the strongest generation of earth-born mortals,
the strongest, and they fought against the strongest, the beast men
living within the mountains, and terribly they destroyed them.
I was in the company of these men....'"
-- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book I: 247-269, 8th century

"Such was Aias as he strode gigantic, the wall of the Achaians,
smiling under his threatening brows, with his feet beneath him
taking huge strides forward, and shaking the spear far-shadowing.
And the Argives looking upon him were made glad, while the Trojans
were taken every man in the knees with trembling and terror,
and for Hektor himself the heart beat hard in his breast, but he could not
any more find means to take flight and shrink back into
the throng of his men, since he in his pride had called him to battle.
Now Aias came near him, carrying like a wall his shield
of bronze and sevenfold ox-hide which Tychios wrought him with much toil;
Tychios, at home in Hyle, far the best of all workers in leather
who had made him the great gleaming shield of sevenfold ox-hide
from strong bulls, and hammered an eighth fold of bronze upon it.
Telamonian Aias, carrying this to cover
his chest, came near to Hektor and spoke to him in words of menace:
'Hektor, single man against single man you will learn now
for sure what the bravest men are like among the Danaans."
-- Homeros, poet, Iliad, Book VII, 212-227, 8th century B.C.

"As told by Huaman Poma, five such ages had preceded that in which he lived. The first was an age of Viracochas, an age of gods, of holiness, of life without death, although at the same time it was devoid of inventions and refinements; the second was an age of skin-clad giants, the Huari Runa, or 'Indigenes,' worshippers of Viracocha; third came the age of Puron Runa, or 'Common Men,' living without culture; fourth, that of Auca Runa, 'Warriors,' and fifth that of the Inca rule, ended by the coming of the Spaniards." -- Hartley B. Alexander, historian, 1920
"The ancients possessed a plasma cosmology and physics themselves, and from laboratory experiments, were well familiar with the patterns exhibited by Peratt's petroglyphs." -- Joseph P. Farrell, author, 2007
Total Science
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:10 am

Re: Giants

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu May 28, 2009 4:12 pm

Hi Total Science,
Here's a couple of alternate translations of the lines from Bk 1 of the Iliad:
And the enemies they fought against were strong,
the mightiest of all the mountain centaurs.
But they destroyed those creatures totally.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Texts/Iliad/iliad1.htm

These were the mightiest men ever born upon this earth: mightiest were they, and when they fought the fiercest tribes of mountain savages they utterly overthrew them.
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.1.i.html
My own copy of the Iliad says 'savage beasts'. No giants here.

As to the passage about Aias, he is just a very big guy. He features throughout the Iliad and is one of my favourite characters. He is the son of Telemon a regular mortal. Aias' 7-fold oxhide and bronze shield is no different than anyone elses apart from its size.

Just for good measure here's a link to the Cyclopes page at theoi.com:
http://www.theoi.com/Gigante/GigantesKyklopes.html
And, just to repeat, don't read it too literally. ;)
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Giants

Unread postby Total Science » Sat May 30, 2009 4:53 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Total Science,
Here's a couple of alternate translations of the lines from Bk 1 of the Iliad:
And the enemies they fought against were strong,
the mightiest of all the mountain centaurs.
But they destroyed those creatures totally.
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Texts/Iliad/iliad1.htm

These were the mightiest men ever born upon this earth: mightiest were they, and when they fought the fiercest tribes of mountain savages they utterly overthrew them.
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.1.i.html
My own copy of the Iliad says 'savage beasts'. No giants here.

Hi Grey Cloud. The word Homer uses is φηρσίν which does not mean centaur. That is a mistranslation.

And, just to repeat, don't read it too literally.

Why not? ;)
"The ancients possessed a plasma cosmology and physics themselves, and from laboratory experiments, were well familiar with the patterns exhibited by Peratt's petroglyphs." -- Joseph P. Farrell, author, 2007
Total Science
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:10 am

Re: Giants

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat May 30, 2009 6:37 pm

Hi Total Science,
And, just to repeat, don't read it too literally.


Why not?
Because Homer uses allegory, metaphor, simile, etc. The literal (exoteric) story is for the sheeple. And what does 'φηρσίν' mean if not centaur? In any case, my point was that none of them suggest a race of giant people.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Giants

Unread postby GaryN » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:18 pm

A 17 minute TEDx presentation by Jim Vieira, a stone mason who has spent 20 years researching the stones and mounds and Giant skeletons found around north America, and dating back thousands of years. He found, as did I a few years back, that the Smithsonian collected, examined, and then seemingly has hidden away any information on these Giants. They don't fit the academically accepted and taught history of America, so hide them and hope nobody catches on.
Stone Builders, Mound Builders and the Giants of Ancient America
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELu9ARLo0jc
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2665
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

Re: Giants

Unread postby allynh » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:39 am

I added this post to pop the thread back up.

This is the Banned TEDx talk that GaryN mentioned in 2012.

Jim Vieira - Stone Builders, Mounds & the Giants of Ancient America - TEDx Banned Talk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNo_dzgznNI

It seems that there are now a number of videos about giants on YouTube since the thread first started.

Just search on - Jim Vieira

Have fun.
allynh
 
Posts: 919
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:51 pm

Re: Giants

Unread postby Open Mind » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:24 pm

Cool thread.

Borrowing from another thread about the "Expanding Earth Theory", the existence of Giants including Dinosaurs in the extreme past all the way up to the Mega mammals of just prior to the Younger Dryas, could be explained by the changing gravity of Earth as it expands and increases its mass.

According to some who are proponents of this theory, the changes of gravity would have happened but only in small increments over millions of years, as suggested based on the time lapse between oceanic ridges which are distinguished by their unique magnetic signatures. So this theory does explain how the massive dinosaurs existed, but the dating on those findings is millions of years ago and we have evidence of larger creatures far more recently that that. One curious fact that challenges the time lines is the fact that just prior to the Younger Dryas a mere 12,800 years ago, there were multiple species that were significantly larger than their present day genera. So if gravitational increase is so slow, according to the expanding earth theory, then how is it that such massive animals persisted until so recently?

If the earth experiences an increase in gravity, I don't assume it would have some magical genetic trigger affect that would immediately shrink the scale of life. That adjustment I suspect would be the more predictable slow process of natural selection that would allow for the more successful offspring to survive with higher probability. And what determines success in an environment, has to do with the particular elements of that particular environment. In other words certain environments will be more demanding than others, and therefore will more aggressively adjust the species enduring those challenges.

So with this logic, its possible that certain environments could allow a population of species to remain unchallenged by a change of gravity relatively speaking. In that case, you would expect little adjustment to their scale if there was no real benefit to multiple generations of that particular scale of animal. Sure there are certain dinosaurs that would suffocate under the weight of their own organs in today's gravity, but if we're talking about relatively smaller species, and smaller changes in gravity, then I think its reasonable to assume some species could experience a considerable lag in scale adjustment.

Even if you consider the balance of predator and prey, if they all experience a slow increasing of their weight relative to an increased gravity, then they will all lose the same degree of agility and stamina, so the result might be that the equilibrium of their coexistence remains unaffected.

If this is possible, and we apply it to the commonalities to ancient stories of giants, it might still work. According to TOTAL SCIENCE, there are many accounts of ancient tales of giants. Common to many of these tales is that they suffered and died off after periods of huge cataclysms. If a species is more lagging in scale adjustment to the 'optimal scale' for the best chance of survival and success at a particular present day gravity, then its highly likely they will be extra vulnerable to the trauma of a cataclysm, so it makes sense they'd be the most affected.

KAPRIEL mentions other commonalities: While they were fairly successful in murdering one another, they were relatively easily beat by those of other, smaller races. Again, a giant might have great strength, but a drawback to their impressive size, if they're scale adjustment is lagged, is that they would be slow plodding and victims of their enormous inertia. So smaller humans might easily evade they attacks and find their targets easy to predict. Jurassic Park was a reckless misrepresentation of the agility of the TRex in today gravity. Today, it would be a sad slow and vulnerable creature that would be heavily dependent on assistance to survive, if it could even stand up for very long.

KAPRIEL also mentions the Japanese discovering a population of Giants on some islands. An island would be a perfect place for a population of a large species to avoid scale adjustment if they are unchallenged by more well adjusted predators. And he mentions they record these giants also had giant sized natural foods growing. This part is harder to comprehend. Its acknowledged that much larger flowers could exist in the times of the dinosaurs because the structure of the plant material while slightly more robust, was mostly reliant on the retention of a hydrostatic pressure to effectively inflate the plants to allow them to stand up and flower. But the amount of water in the larger flower petals would certainly droop and sag in present day gravity considering the volume and weight of water, so as far as plants go, it seems they would mostly suffer a more immediate demand on their scale adjustment, so this is more difficult to comprehend. Although maybe this population of giants nurtured and maintained crops of the most resiliant plants that weren't a stock plant, but more of a vine and ground vegitable like a pumpkin. Hard to say without knowing what plants they were talking about.

Anyways, all the above is my total conjecture even if I wasn't diligent to continually add (IMO), but its just a model to attempt to resolve how giants might have survived in small protected groups beyond multiple series of cataclysms that incrementally continued to increase gravity and decrease they're competitive performance as a species adapted to the changing gravity.

Thoughts?
Open Mind
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:47 am


Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests