Ancient Technologies

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The Jupiter Myth

Unread postby kauranos » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:19 pm

Hullo from newbie. John.

The Greek Antikythera mechanism for astronomy is a fact. The eclipse prediction calendar, a dial on the back of the mechanism includes a solar eclipse that happened May 12, 205 B.C. It used Babylonian maths not Greek trigonometry._ Smithsonian.
By way of speculation : Egypt may have had telescopes.https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conf ... hort?SSO=1  

The implications for the identification of glass production sites, for the organisation of trade and for the supply of natron within and outside Egypt are discussed in the light of Pliny’s accounts.  
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 016-0447-4    

Io’s volcanoes are at times so powerful that they are seen with large telescopes on Earth.  
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/jupi ... /overview/  
Fact: The first reported observation of Io was made by Galileo Galilei on 7 January 1610 using a 20x-power, refracting telescope at the University of Padua.    "Jupiter's magnetic field lines, which Io crosses, couple Io's atmosphere and neutral cloud to Jupiter's polar upper atmosphere by generating an electric current known as the Io flux tube. This current produces an auroral glow in Jupiter's polar regions known as the Io footprint, as well as aurorae in Io's atmosphere. Particles from this auroral interaction darken the Jovian polar regions at visible wavelengths.   Jupiter's auroras, which are sparked by particles from the planet's moons as well as the sun, are thousands of times more energetic than Earth's and many times bigger than Earth itself. They're also constant, but every once in a while they grow to an incredible intensity — the result not of a solar flare but of volcanic activity on Io, according to the new study. "  

 Pliny wrote: ".. the fires which fall upon the earth, and receive the name of thunderbolts (fulminum nomen habeant) proceed from the three superior stars (siderum),but principally from the one which is situated in the middle . . . and hence it is commonly said, the thunderbolts are darted by Jupiter.  Pliny knew the origin of lightning in the friction of clouds—he wrote that “by the dashing of two clouds, the lightning may flash out.”  He did not confuse lightning with the thunderbolt that is discharged by the planets. He makes a distinction between “earthly bolts, not from stars,” and “the bolts from the stars.”   The electrical discharge from a planet is described very clearly by Pliny: “heavenly fire is spit forth by the planet as a crackling charcoal flies from a burning log.” 

  https://www.varchive.org/itb/thunder.htm
Pliny, Natural History, transl. by J. Bostock and H. Riley (London, 1865), Book. Ii, ch. 18.  
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Re: The Jupiter Myth

Unread postby kauranos » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:22 am

Hi JP Michael,
Then if we mesh /mash  those facts , the Antikythera may have been motivated ( not by DC) by Egypt's alleged telescopes which hypothetically were >20x mag.  The intense visible plumes of Io and Jupiter's corona may be what Pliny was on about. The eye of Horus , the red spot of Jupiter ?

https://www.google.com/search?q=eye+hor ... 4zOWlL-X_M:

Mr Hancock saw the Great Red Spot of West Australia from a plane and mined galactic quantities of iron dust for his daughter worth US$14.8 billion , the price of Khufu's pyramid. Jupiter's Magnetic Moment is 2.83 x  1028   N. m³  at  60 million–140 million amps radial ( cubic metre looks suspect). Lorentz force vector matches Jupiter's spin and Kelvin-Helmholtz wave instability allows some particle transit. 
This thunderbolt is from Bali Indonesia 14th cent. and resembles the Greek weapon of Zeus Jupiter.
https://www.google.com/search?q=thunder ... aGaMaPAawM:  

It is about 480mm and about .8kg mass . Jupiter's gravity is 2.5 G . Indra ruled Jupiter ( Rig Veda 10) and probably he and Zeus had a joint facility for thunderbolt rail-gun propulsion.
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Re: The Jupiter Myth

Unread postby nick c » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:01 am

kauronos,

Though interesting, your two posts here are off topic to the general theme of this thread.
The topic here is the work of Jno Cook, Saturn Theory, and the role of Jupiter.

The forum is organized such that there are different boards for various areas of comment and exploration.
I would suggest that you post your ideas and sources for discussion on a new thread on the NIAMI board.
There you will have the freedom to put up the ideas that you posted here, up for examination.

Here is a summary of the Thunderbolts Forum's format:
Rules and Guidelines
Note the last post on that thread, where I have summarized the role of each of the forum's different boards.
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Re: The Jupiter Myth

Unread postby kauranos » Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:27 pm

Hi nick c,
The topic refers to "comparable to the dynamic planet-god dramas of ancient mythology" , that is , "Myth". Jno Cook is an incidental reference "(but not The Jupiter Myth specifically)".

The myths only relate if ancients could observe details of planets. Ancients could only observe if they had telescopes. "attentiveness to the role of visible-from-earth plasma 'plumes' ".
The evidence suggests they did. Their supposition about thunderbolts ( the topic of the Forum's name) is by chance connected with Jupiter's Magnetic Moment , connected with discharges of Saturn/Jupiter encounters . My comments directly establish the premise of the topic to save it from the NIAMI oblivion.
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby nick c » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:44 pm

Moderator Note:
The above posts were moved from "The Jupiter Myth" thread on the Electric Universe - Planetary Science board.
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby JP Michael » Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:45 pm

@John
The Antikythera mechanism may very well have accurately predicted eclipses and the like, but its apparent dating between 200 BCE and the shipwreck, 70-60 BCE, implies that it was utilised to observe the modern sky. It's bearing or usefulness regarding questions on the wild heavens of the recent past thus becomes suspect.

It neither surprises me that Galileo Galilee observed electrical interaction between Jupiter and Io. Volcanism is an electrical phenomenon and to be expected on that moon, being as close as it is to the ex-brown dwarf star Jupiter. It may be that Jupiter (and Saturn, being the other prominent ex-star in our solar system) is still siphoning a small measure of electrical current from the galactic filament that is powering our sun, thus the resulting outbursts of volcanism on Io which is apparently unrelated to CMEs from the sun. That is a separate study in and of itself and I am not qualified to comment further. This is just an idea floating in my mind about Io's volcanism.

Your quotation of Pliny is interesting, though, that Pliny knew to differentiate between terrestrial lightning and Jupiter's past interplanetary arc-plasma discharges. I think it is Homer's Illiad that said Zeus blasted Aphrodite (the moon) in the chest for attempting to interfere in Pallas-Athene's (Venus) celestial tiff with Ares (Mars). Kind of explains why our moon is a ghostly, scarred, electrically cratered and chasmed entity if that was indeed how the scene unfolded in the recent past.

Mars' Olympus Mons and Valles Marineris might also be further evidence of direct contact between the Red Planet and Jupiter in the past. Ever since reading about the possibility of iron oxide (rusty, red dust) being a central component to Jupiter's Great Red Spot, it made me wonder if that was the precise location from which the arc of plasma shot forth from Jupiter to Mars in the past and electrically 'hoovered' vast quantities of magneto-charged Fe2O3 or Fe3O4 particulate from the Martian surface which has remained in that spiralling synchrotron of a storm ever since. Velikovsky's supposition of fights with Venus and/or Earth with Mars must also be considered in the overall reconstruction.

I also disagree with the conclusion that the ancients required telescopes to perceive Jupiter's past polar plasma plumes. You are maintaining the false uniformitarian assumption that their skies were the same as our skies, a manifestly false a-priori. If this assumption were true, then you would be correct to suppose the ancients required telescopes to perceive Jupiter and its various phenomenon. There is significant evidence to the contrary, however:

Jupiter
    1. Was much closer to the Earth in the past, so close that ancient art depicts Jupiter's patterns of equatorial banding.1 This was done without the use of telescopy.
    2. Has an immense plasmasheath (jovesphere? as opposed to our sun's heliosphere) of its own. If you can locate Jupiter in the night sky tonight, place your hand over it and that is the approximate size of Jupiter's plasmasheath from a terrestrial perspective. If this plasmasheath had polar-oriented glow-mode tails (plasma plumes) on it, they would be visible from earth today without any need for a telescope. In fact, these plumes might somewhat resemble a squashed, thinner version of the Bali Thunderbolt image you posted above. How much more visible, then, would they have been in the past when Jupiter was much closer to the Earth?

[1]I found it incredibly difficult to source the images of Jupiter's bands in ancient art. The best I could do was to screencap The Juptier Myth, part 2 @09:08. I do not know where Jno Cook sourced these ancient drawings from.

Image
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby kauranos » Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:42 pm

JP Michael and nick c,

"There is significant evidence to the contrary, however: Jupiter 1. Was much closer to the Earth in the past, so close that ancient art depicts Jupiter's patterns of equatorial banding.  I found it incredibly difficult to source the images of Jupiter's bands in ancient art. I do not know where Jno Cook sourced these ancient drawings from. "

hmm. ...
Now I wonder why Pliny described what was obvious to everyone , that  “heavenly fire is spit forth by the planet as a crackling charcoal flies from a burning log.”  Would he write in a textbook for Romans that the Moon is yellow and has rings on its surface? That the sea is composed of water which moves up and down?

The topic may well be discussed by orbital logic and so on in another thread.  Bringing in the title of Myth and the elaboration of mythic art in your opening website requires a discussion on historic observation . How could ancients describe real events prior to their history? The evidence is that in Pliny's time , Jupiter was distant , maybe with rings being visible by Egypt's telescopes.  Then Jno Cook is irrelevant and de-rails your topic theme.
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby nick c » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:23 pm

What evidence is there that any ancient civilization possessed sophisticated telescopes? Literary references, paintings, carvings, bas reliefs, or an actual telescope or part there of?
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby kauranos » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:15 pm

There is none except the Egyptian lenses. Pliny is describing something in specific detail which is to inform his readers. By deduction , it's not obviously visible but is precise for him as a Roman.

By comparison with the Jupiter thunderbolt , the Vedic chakra weapon was made of sun-dust , 1/8 of the Sun. This compares with Jupiter "flashing like charcoal" and the chakra is circular where the Vedic vajra is double-ended and spiked, as in Sumeria . There are star signs having vertical and horizontal bars but not identifiable with any planet or Sun , and maybe indicate just brightness. Vedic fire-god Agni is both Sun and Guru , planet Jupiter.

Antikythera indicates a real motivation for science ( as the pyramids were in their way). If a planet was historically close enough for the naked eye to see details then it would qualify as a 2nd moon ( small size) but is there any description like that? When it gradually came into near orbit , who could identify it as originating from outer-orbit?
And the other way when it departed to where it is now?
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby Younger Dryas » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:33 am

I feel confident speaking on behalf of Jno Cook when I suggest that absolutely nothing in your post in no way resembles anything he has, or ever would say.

If you would like to learn more on his take on the 'Career of Jupiter' I suggest you begin here: https://saturniancosmology.org
"I decided to believe, as you might decide to take
an aspirin: It can't hurt, and you might get better."
-- Umberto Eco Foucault's Pendulum (1988)
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby kauranos » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:50 pm

Yes I've read Jno . Where does he discuss mythology of Jupiter? ( Guessing names of planets in myth texts is not allowed..)
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby JP Michael » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 pm

kauranos wrote:Now I wonder why Pliny described what was obvious to everyone , that  “heavenly fire is spit forth by the planet as a crackling charcoal flies from a burning log.”  Would he write in a textbook for Romans that the Moon is yellow and has rings on its surface? That the sea is composed of water which moves up and down?


Pliny wrote very much after the fact. As you remarked, "The evidence is that in Pliny's time , Jupiter was distant , maybe with rings..." But the older sources Pliny probably had access to, be they Latin or Greek, detailed such phenomenon commonly. They observed the rings and the bands at a time Jupiter was much closer to the earth. By Pliny's time, it was not so. It was the older sources, specifically from the period of 1500 BCE through ~700 BCE, that detail the activity of Jupiter and its plethora of arcing plasma events. Pliny needed to repeat this for his audience because those spectacular events of the past were no longer occurring, yet the memory of what had occurred was still as fresh in Pliny's day as the time it happened. This knowledge has been mostly purged from modern science (the main exception being Chicxulub), following Lyell, by means of its false a-priori adherence to the doctrine of uniformity.

The thunderbolts of the gods were intense glow-arc plasma phenomenon. While there is still some debate as to whether they originated from past high-intensity solar outbursts (Peratt, van der Sluijs, Schoch, among others), or from plasma discharge events caused by close approaches/breakup of the ancient Jupiter-Saturn-Venus-Mars-Earth 'planetary shish-kabob' (Talbott, Thornill, Cardona, Cochrane, among others), the fact that these high-energy-density plasmas were both observed and recorded by people in antiquity is beyond dispute. This confirms, in my mind, Velikovsky's 1950's proposition: The ancient skies were radically different to today's sky. We add to that supposition the additional information unknown to Velikovsky at the time: specifically by measure of intense plasma events recorded by ancient peoples worldwide.

Figure 1. Thunderbolts of the Gods. Sourced from ancient Greece, Sumeria, Babylon, Egypt, Mexico, etc.
Image

Figure 2. Plasma discharge phenomenon. Sourced from Peratt's high-energy plasma discharge experiments.
Image

kauranos wrote:If a planet was historically close enough for the naked eye to see details then it would qualify as a 2nd moon ( small size) but is there any description like that? When it gradually came into near orbit , who could identify it as originating from outer-orbit?
And the other way when it departed to where it is now?


They were so close that ancient civilisations were able to record its moons. They were called "the sons of god" or the "assembly of the gods". The story of Saturn devouring his children was just that: the titanic planet utterly annihilating some of its orbiting moons in the past, the debris of which now populate the asteroid belt. Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels, 1726, using a still-unknown source, placed in the mouth of the Liliputian people that Mars had 2 moons. This was some 151 years before Asaph Hall's 1877 'discovery' of Mars' two moons. The question everyone has asked since was, "How did Jonathan Swift know?" Simple. He used a source which dated back to or incorporated data from a time when Mars was observed in closer proximity to earth, including observations of its twin moons, because the skies were different then.

Here are some sample images of earth's perspective of the ancient sky:

Figure 3: Saturn, behind, the ancient Polar Sun. Venus flaring. Mars in front. Left, computer modelled image. Right, from Babylon.
Image

Figure 4: Morphed Saturn variant. Venus flaring, Mars in front. Left, computer modelled image. Right, from Buddhism.
Image

Figure 5: Morphed Venus variant. Mars in front. Left, computer modelled image. Right, from Aztecs.
Image

Figure 6: Saturnian configuration, side on computer-modelled image.
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Figure 7. Bull of Heaven/Cosmic Mountain. Left, computer modelled image. Right, Greek Atlas.
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Figure 8. Axis Mundi (Tree of Life, Axis of Creation, Cosmic Mountain), Babylon.
Image

Figure 9: Atlas (Greek pottery)
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Figure 10: Bull of Heaven. Computer modelled image.
Image

Figure 11: Bull of Heaven (Egypt)
Image

I will admit none of these images refer to Jupiter (a weakness in Talbot/Thornill/Cardona's model) and I cannot source any images, computer generated or otherwise, of Jupiter in formation, other than the image I screencapped above from Jno Cook's The Jupiter Myth which displays artistic representations of Jupiter's bands.
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby kauranos » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:07 pm

When Jupiter was at Mars' orbit (going about twice normal speed) its diameter was .3 to .03 Moon diameter. The moons of Mars were OK as dots but a 1/3 moon , continually half-moon to full-moon facing the Sun, is something else. But who wrote about or drew 2 Moons? Closer to Earth its light would double the moon-light , there'd be no real night and stars would be invisible in the glare. Priests would go out of business.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_diameter  

 "When the stars of Enlil have been finished, one big star – although its light is dim – divides the sky in half and stands there: that is, the star of Marduk (MUL dAMAR.UD), Nibiru (né-bé-ru), Jupiter (MULSAG.ME.GAR); it keeps changing its position and crosses the sky.

Conversely, Tablets K.6174:9’ and K.12769:6’ refer to it as Mercury: "If Mercury (MULUDU.IDIM.GU4) divides the sky and stands there, [its name] is Nibiru."

In a 2015 report for the Cuneiform Digital Library Bulletin, Immanuel Freedman analyzed the extant cuneiform evidence and concluded that the hypothesis that the name Nēbiru may be assigned to any visible astronomical object that marks an equinox is supported by cuneiform evidence."
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:53 am

Hi Folks.
At the beginning of my thread on Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysms at
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16025
I include some references to ancient advanced tech too. In a post toward the end of that thread I mentioned Charles Ginenthal's article about ice cores or something and ancient maps, which suggests that advanced tech must have been required in order to produce those accurate ancient maps.

It may be worthwhile for someone or us to write up a list of various catastrophism theories and sort out the best elements of each, in order to come up with a superior synthesis.

Some of the theories are:
Velikovsky's, Robert Driscoll's, Jack Ackerman's, Gary Gilligan's, Cardona's, Talbott's, Creationists', Walter Brown's, mine, Heinsohn's, ….
Does anyone want to add to the list and maybe start listing the main points of each theory?

I agree with Ginenthal, Jonathan Gray et al that there is good evidence that there was advanced tech in ancient times. I give a probability of over 50%. Since the cataclysms diminished apparently about 2300BC, rather than in Velikovsky's time-frame, most of the evidence was destroyed by the cataclysms, esp. the Great Flood.
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Re: Ancient Technologies

Unread postby kauranos » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:13 pm

[img]data:image/jpeg;base64,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[/img]
This is Vishnu as Krishna on the eagle Garuda , Indonesia 9th century.  He holds a chakra weapon of sun-dust.  Garuda is identified with Aquila 'eagle' constellation as is Zeus /Jupiter and Bunjil eagle-man of Victoria Australia.

Warrandyte Historical Society - FAQs
home.vicnet.net.au › ~whsoc › faqs
Jul 1, 2008 - "It has long been thought that "Warrandyte" could be translated as "that which is thrown". The Wurundji dreamtime story: how Bunjil, the great eagle, the all-powerful, ever-watchful creator of the world, had once gazed down upon his people from the Star Altair ( in Aquila ) and seen their wrongdoing. Awaiting their return, with a mighty crash of thunder, he hurled down a star to destroy them.
 
Sanskrit jyoti / dyota and Old Java dyuti are "star"  as is duta / durt/ dyte in Bunjil's land.  Skt and Old Java warana mean "object of choice. warding off". Warrandyte would then be "chosen star". Bunjil's camp-fire is planet Jupiter.

https://www.bendigosds.vic.edu.au/uploa ... reator.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia ... my#Jupiter
The Dja Dja Wurrung call Jupiter "Bunjil's campfire".  

This is similar to Pliny's expression about Jupiter : “heavenly fire is spit forth by the planet as a crackling charcoal flies from a burning log.”_ Natural History.  
kauranos
 
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