criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Cargo » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:31 pm

A light source moving in the same direction at X speed 1,000ly away, or at 1,000,000ly away should have the same shift. Yes?
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Aardwolf » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:31 am

Cargo wrote:A light source moving in the same direction at X speed 1,000ly away, or at 1,000,000ly away should have the same shift. Yes?
No because redshift is not a real doppler effect as would be expected from a fixed velocity, the redshift is supposedly caused by expansion stretching the actual wave of light as it crosses empty space. Hence redshift would be cumulative the further it travels.

However, my point is if that's true then the absorption band should be similarly and cumulatively stretched, of which there isn't any evidence, so expansion caused redshift is falsified.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Aardwolf » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:57 am

fencewalker wrote:
Aardwolf wrote:What are you views on my point that the absorption lines should broaden as they are further red shifted, and there doesn’t appear to be any evidence to support this?
IIIFFF einstein is correct about the speed of light being a maximum, then the absorption lines SHOULD b farther apart in red shifts, and compressed closer together in blue shift. i have not heard of this being evident either, which i suggest is further evidence that he was wrong about the postulate of max speed.
I agree Einstein was probably wrong about max c but I don't think this has a real bearing on the redshift issue. Light frequency and light speed are not necessarily directly related.

fencewalker wrote:i have seen some spectral plot over frequency, but they are on an exponential scale, making it hard to see the stretch/compress of the spacing between spectral absorption lines.
is that what u were implying?
Yes but I'm pretty sure the absorption lines only shift a short way along the spectrum (see example below), not across large frequencies, so they should be evident to some degree. Can you link the spectral plot you mentioned?

Image
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby MotionTheory » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:02 am

Aardwolf - excellent reasoning however need to address

More mainstream magics:
1. space expansion is accelerating which explained why observed close to fixed rather than cumulative redshifting over distance.

2. only Infrared is observed for long distance galaxies because visible spectrum were eaten and lengthened by cumulative redshifting dog.

EU magic substances as cause for redshift:
1. plasma
2. EM field

=====
When above magics (and a few others) are falsified and all known affects are account for (such as doppler, scatter, tired, etc..), what remain supposed to be: redshift map from all directions would shows varying redshift depend on motion of external galaxies. reflect galaxy moving or edge of galaxy rotate relative toward and away from observer. No, it won't be so.

FWIW Simplest answer - the observer is inside a filter(Milky Way), which redshift all incoming EM by the similar amount (however deviate slightly depend on milky way shape and location of observer from galactic axis of rotation) regardless of EM source distance.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby fencewalker » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:25 pm

from cargo - A light source moving in the same direction at X speed 1,000ly away, or at 1,000,000ly away should have the same shift. Yes?

yes, when u only consider doppler shift. ppl here r suggesting some kind of plasma redshift, which i have not seen data/equations/explanations for, so i have yet to accept it's validity,

aardwolf - could u explain plasma redshift?
also, i had the sprectal lines on a logarithmic scale linked, but can't find it, probably deleted. frequency is often plotted this way. r u sure ur examples are actual data or just a demonstration/model? just a quick web search did not show what i was referring to. my bad.
i think u mentioned something similar to this - the redshift would have to b significant to notice the separation between absorption bands.
i'm sure there is some math that could better explain it.
i also tried searching for plasma absorption lines and just found a bunch of things i wasn't willing to invest time in. do u have decent data or even modeled graphs?

mtiontheory - my argument is that the universe is not accelerating but decelerating - check my previous posts in this thread. older data = faster galaxies = younger in universal time, acceleration over distance is deceleration over time.
by 'magic' i assume u mean theoretical. do u have data/equations/explanations for plasma/EM field redshifting? i think if light loses energy through these, it would appear as additional absorption lines and loss in amplitude/intensity, not loss/shift of frequency.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby fencewalker » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:00 pm

aardwolf - i found a site that might lead to what we are looking for.
http://voyages.sdss.org/launch/cosmos/redshift-launch/
the plots at the bottom of that link seem understandable, and they talk about a science archive server, so they might have more data samples for us to peruse.
i'm assuming from the plots, the overlaid rainbow spectrum is visible light, and the black bar has the at-rest lines for hydrogen (my guess). the titles are galaxy and star, but the galaxy does not have distance or velocity. it appears to be a 'test question' for the viewer to determine the distance/velocity.
heh, at the bottom i submitted the question of the length between spectral lines changing at large redshift...
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Aardwolf » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:19 am

fencewalker wrote:aardwolf - i found a site that might lead to what we are looking for.
http://voyages.sdss.org/launch/cosmos/redshift-launch/
the plots at the bottom of that link seem understandable, and they talk about a science archive server, so they might have more data samples for us to peruse.
i'm assuming from the plots, the overlaid rainbow spectrum is visible light, and the black bar has the at-rest lines for hydrogen (my guess). the titles are galaxy and star, but the galaxy does not have distance or velocity. it appears to be a 'test question' for the viewer to determine the distance/velocity.
heh, at the bottom i submitted the question of the length between spectral lines changing at large redshift...
Looking at the spectra associated with the database items I couldn't any evidence that there were any exponentional movement of the bands. They just move into the near infra red. However, looking at the distant objects I could find it becomes apparent that the signal just appears to become too weak and there are so many I'm surprised they have any real ability to determine where the bands have shifted to, as the peaks/troughs seem no bigger than the noise. I doubt there is enough definition at those distances to test the theory. At extremely large distances I doubt they can use absorption bands at all.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby fencewalker » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:43 pm

what do u think of the dark energy? do u seethe galaxies accelerating or decelerating? check my first post in this thread...
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby jacmac » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:01 pm

Fencewalker:
do u seethe galaxies accelerating or decelerating?

My response would be: perhaps neither.
Halton Arp has falsified the belief that Redshift always indicates movement away from us and distance.
His lifetime of published astronomy should be the start of anyone serious about investigating Redshift.
When you see objects in distant space connected by plasma that have striking different Redshift numbers you know something is not right with the standard theory.
This article in the N Y Times about his death might be a good place to start.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/scie ... at-86.html
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby fencewalker » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:44 am

@ jacmac - imnsho, hubbla and arp are both partly correct.
hubble's V=HD applies to the centers of galaxies. since we are not observing from the center of our galaxy, nor are we observing the centers of other galaxies, the data will be off the line (search hubble 1929 graph).
since arp is observing quasar ejections from the galactic centers, they will not share the centers' velocity/red shift.
my guess is that the quasars are generated by clouds of matter being hit by the gamma bursts from the center of the galaxy. it is also my guess that spiral galaxies are formed by gamma bursts from galactic cores that are spinning in multiple directions. the primary axis represented by the gamma burst, the secondary axis forms the disc shape of the galaxy.
also, could u explain what u think plasma red shift is? i have yet to see/hear/read a decent explanation of it.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby orrery » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:15 am

Doppler Redshift is moronic and anyone who believes in it is an idiot.

The emission of light is much like the frames in a movie. Light is emitted such that you can think of each measurement of spectrum as a frame. Each light emitting diode emits light in a digital instantaneous and binary fashion.

The redshift phenomenon is an attribute of the "spectral frame." Because it is an attribute of the 'spectral frame' and not the product of a "spectral video" then it can not possibly be a Doppler Effect. It fails even the most basic dimensional analysis.

Take a picture of a ball in the air - with a single picture - you do not know if the ball is going up, down, left, or right.

Motion can only be determined via a dz/t (change in redshift / time). This is the most basic equation for motion - bell, it's chapter 1 physics most people learn in elementary school.

Are you measuring a change in redshift over time? No. If not, then you aren't even performing the most basic action for measuring motion.

Redshift can be discerned as a property of a single frame. There is no "frame drag" by which redshift emerges as a property of observing multiple frames over a length of time.

Do you understand? Redshift is not an emergent phenomenon that manifests over time. It is an attribute of a single frame - it is part of the quantized instantaneous data packet. It is not dependent on the past or future emissions.

Waves are a temporal phenomenon. Waves exist only in time. Waves do not exist in quantized instances of time.

Again, it is quite simple to understand - video vs picture.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Brent72 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:14 pm

Orrery are you saying that redshift is ‘quantised’? In other words, the changes in redshift only occur in discrete intervals, rather than following a smooth continuum?
I am looking for how the Plasma Universe can explain redshift. Could someone please refer me to the right thread/link?
We know that redshift is not a measure of distance (ie the more that light from a source is redshifted, the further away the source is) because Arp showed that two light sources in close proximity can have different redshifts. But what is the proposed mechanism here? Thanks.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby paladin17 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:46 pm

Brent72 wrote:I am looking for how the Plasma Universe can explain redshift. Could someone please refer me to the right thread/link?

There are some alternative theories.
E.g. this one https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0401420.pdf
Also there is Wolf effect https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9807205.pdf
Some stick to the good old "tired light" hypothesis (e.g. here in particular it is attributed to the external gravitational potential that the photons have to overcome to get to us - https://youtu.be/2NdUcR4unYs).
Etc.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Brent72 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:07 am

Thanks mate. I’ll go through those.
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Re: criticizing thunderbolts and cosmology

Unread postby Brent72 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:42 pm

paladin17 wrote:
Brent72 wrote:I am looking for how the Plasma Universe can explain redshift. Could someone please refer me to the right thread/link?

There are some alternative theories.
E.g. this one https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0401420.pdf
Also there is Wolf effect https://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9807205.pdf
Some stick to the good old "tired light" hypothesis (e.g. here in particular it is attributed to the external gravitational potential that the photons have to overcome to get to us - https://youtu.be/2NdUcR4unYs).
Etc.


To summarise the three views that you gave me paladin17:

1. Brynjolfsson (2005) proposes that photons lose energy (in quanta) when they pass through plasma, to account for the redshift.

2. The Wolf effect says that light from two separate locations (either due to two separate sources or one source fluctuating in space?) causes some sort of interference of the waves which results in resonant frequencies that are lower in frequency (shifted to the red end of the spectrum).

3. Dicke’s 1957 hypothesis (the slowing light hypothesis) says that photons get slowed down by the effects of gravity as more planets exert their gravitational pull. So light from distant galaxies has the same wavelength but slower frequency (think of a train slowing down, where each carriage is a wavelength – the length of the carriage doesn’t change but the frequency of them passing an observer is less). This means that when we compare the slower light arriving from distant sources to our local light on earth, the distant light appears to have a longer wavelength, but really it is just a lower frequency – so it is redshifted.

This last one really appeals to me. As Unzicker says “it’s a terrific idea that no one knows about” (9.57). You don’t need expansion of the universe. You don’t need dark energy. It’s simple and fits the data. It’s a shame he backs down right at the end. And judging by the weak applause, the audience there in Hamburg weren’t really open to it.

The one reservation I would have (and I’m just an amateur here) is that the effects of gravity on light may be misrepresented in Dicke’s model. Could we modify his theory to say that light is slowed by the effects of electrogravity (i.e. electric dipole interactions) and/or plasma? Is it a bit like Brynjolfsson’s idea but instead of light changing it’s wavelength as it propagates through space, it changes frequency? What am I missing here?
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