Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Brigit]

Catastrophism is the main subject, but there are some serious implications from Gen 1-11 which are entirely outside a materialist template:

What is a Human Being?
One is that this document tells us that man and woman were made in God's likeness, and every one is deeply loved by God. We are not machines, nor flightless bipeds, nor evolved apes, nor collections of chemical reactions. All of those modern descriptions of what a human is, put forward by German philosophers, by Plato, by Darwin, and by materialists of all stripes, are always a huge demotion for me. (Why is that?) And there will always be tension and arguments between people because of these bad doctrines (usually from the scientific quarter). Because of belief in the word, we reject that man is a featherless biped, "mass produced by unskilled labor," or overpopulated, or genetically inferior animals, etc. Instead, we are adopted into one family through the cross and loved by God.

Spiritual Beings and Conflict between Light and Darkness
Another insoluble problem is that while strict materialists insist that there is no spiritual law, spirits, angels, after life, or God, those who do believe God understand this world in terms of a conflict between light and darkness, between good and evil. This is how we also view history. And so all life also has simultaneous spiritual events. Actually, I don't think that the majority of people would really think this is a totally invalid way of looking at the world, just different from their own, perhaps -- although there is much mockery from the scientistic materialists. According to the OT and the NT, there are principalities, powers, rulers of this age, deceiving spirits, demons, and many others, as well as angels and the One who made them. Again, this is supported in Genesis and throughout the OT and NT. Therefore, removing the spiritual implications from an ancient text in order to get a materialistic outcome is a little less than accurate.

[Brigit]

Catastrophism subtopic: the psychoanalytical model of history

If we understand the psychoanalytical approach to history, it assumes that mankind collectively and within society is repressing urges and ideas that are unpleasant or frightening or painful for him, or are perhaps too destructive if acknowledged and admitted into his conscious world.

It must follow that the psychoanalyst is not excepted. By his own admission all people suppress what they find to be uncomfortable or deeply distressing. Therefore, it is required that we ask, what is the psychoanalyst repressing?

A similar question is, what does the strict materialist find most uncomfortable of all?

The answer to those questions may be an interesting topic for discussion another time.

[Lloyd]

13004

RELIGION

Brigit, the psychology of suppression of memories of terror is a significant part of Catastrophist literature, as you know. You can do a search at https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_query= on terms like psychology, collective amnesia, religion etc to find a lot of good info.

EARTH HISTORY

At https://futureschool.boards.net/post/93/thread I started a thread on Earth History. Below is what I have now. I now think there was no Ice Age, just and Ice Sheet. It seems that the climate was still good in most of Asia and western N. America for mammals to thrive. That ended when Saturn flared up for the last time and Siberia became very cold. Mike Fischer thought continental drift moved the continents suddenly into near Arctic regions which caused the Ice Age, but I think that continental drift occurred during the end phase of the Great Flood and that mammals thrived after the Flood for a few centuries. I may have to rethink how Siberia became frigid, but that can wait a while.

_1. PREHISTORY

SATURN DWARF STAR SYSTEM FORMATION
1a. The Saturn system, whether or not with the rest of the solar system, formed electrically from an imploding galactic filament (CC)

LINEAR POLAR ARRANGEMENT OF SATURN'S PLANETS
1b. Venus, Mars and Earth trailed behind Saturn in a linear polar alignment, which originated in the solar system on an elliptical orbit or entered into it on a spiraling orbit (DC)

EARTH AND VENUS WERE GAS GIANT PLANETS
1c. Earth had a thick atmosphere and oceans where life evolved (SD). Saturn flare-ups periodically blasted away portions of the atmospheres of Venus, Mars and Earth.

EARTH'S GRANITE SUPERCONTINENT
1d. A granite planetoid collided softly with Earth on a spiraling orbit and became a granite supercontinent (CC). See an alternative view on granite formation at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =210#p2468

GOLDEN AGE
1e. The Golden Age began after the suprecontinent formed. The climate on the supercontinent was perfect for life to flourish.

_2. GREAT FLOOD

PREFLOOD SATURN FLARE-UP
2a. 4,500 years ago Saturn flared up within Jupiter's orbit, creating the asteroid belt and meteor streams. The flare-up removed most of Earth's and Mars' atmospheres. The diminishing air pressure caused degassing of the oceans, which formed calcite from ocean lime and atmospheric CO2, which combined with sand, mud and lime to form hard rock layers.

METEOR BOMBARDMENT
2b. The Late Heavy Bombardment formed craters on many of the planets, moons, asteroids etc in the solar system.

TIDAL WAVES
2c. The Moon became a satellite of Earth at that time and caused the Great Flood as its perigee was too close to Earth for the first 6 months or so before its orbit circularized. The Great Flood tidal waves laid down the sedimentary strata on the continents etc and washed some of it onto the continental shelves.

ASTEROID IMPACT CONTINENTAL BREAKUP
2d. The largest asteroid strike hit the supercontinent, splitting it up and causing formation of mountain ranges and rapid continental drift of the continents over the Moho layer to their present locations.

_3. POST-FLOOD

ICE SHEET
3a. After the Flood, the Ice Sheet formed over E Canada, Greenland and NW Europe, due to cooling from the auroral oval and/or thick volcanic and meteor impact dust and smoke. Siberia, W. Canada and Alaska had a mild climate where mammals thrived.

VENUS COMET
3b. The Saturn system was approaching perihelion. Venus and Mars went out of alignment from the polar configuration. Venus appeared like a comet and formed a circular trail of dust and gas around Saturn.

SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP
3c. Mars escaped from the Saturn system when the system reached its orbit. Then Earth and Venus escaped when the system reached near Earth's orbit.

_4. YOUNGER DRYAS FLARFE-UP

LAST SATURN FLARE-UP
4a. Saturn flared up for the last time and caused a conflagration on Earth as well as meteor impacts on the Ice Sheet, melting it and causing major flooding.

SATURN DEPARTURE
4b. Saturn then moved to its present orbit.

_5. RETURN OF CIVILIZATION

PRIOR CIVILIZATION
5a. Civilization probably began before the Great Flood, but all or nearly all evidence of it is now buried under the sedimentary rock strata from the Flood etc.
POST-CATACLYSM

5b. Minor impacts continued to occur from the Taurid stream at Halloween and late June. The Sun and other planets appeared reddish in color for many centuries due to dust in the inner solar system.

NEW CIVILIZATION
5c. After the Cataclysms, Civilization began anew at Gobekli Tepli, Sumer, Egypt etc. Large building projects showed advanced knowledge.

PHOENICIAN DOMINATION
5d. Semitic Phoenicians clandestinely gained worldwide control of governments through advanced methods of deception etc.

[Lloyd]

13099

ICE AGE

The hardest part of cataclysmic history to explain after the Great Flood may be the Ice Age. It appears to me that there was no actual Ice Age, but just an Ice Sheet over E Canada, Greenland and NW Europe, due to what Cardona called an Auroral Oval band of clouds that kept that region very overcast and cold. The best evidence for the Ice Sheet seems to be the Eskers, which I discussed here a month or so ago at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=225. The mammals in the Arctic circle apparently lived in milder climate due to warmth from Saturn that was not blocked by the Aurora. When Saturn had its last flare-up, which caused the Younger Dryas event, the blast probably blew away some more of Earth's remaining atmosphere and that may be what killed some of the mammoths and other mammals that apparently died of flash freezing and asphixiation (suffocation from lack of oxygen). I had previously thought that Mike Fishcer's idea was likely correct, that rapid continental drift moved parts of Asia, Europe and North America into the Arctic region, causing the sudden freezing of the mammals. But I believe continental drift occurred during the Great Flood, whereas the mammals that froze to death appear to have lived after the Great Flood at the time of the Younger Dryas event. So the flare-up from Saturn seems to be the best hypothesis to explain the demise of those mammals.

[Brigit]

Lloyd, I admire your ability sit right down and write a timeline of earth history. What I really appreciate most is the fact that you often emphasize the scientific questions we are interested in exploring. Articulating the question is the most straight forward first step in the process of scientific discovery. Otherwise, so much time is wasted in language which attempts to disguise everything in a false objectivity and a show of perfect observational poise, when in fact the experimenters knew exactly what they were looking for and how they wanted to achieve the result. A question is much nicer.

And I actually always have the same question, as I have traveled with my family through nearly every county in Oregon and most in Washington: How was this geological feature formed rapidly by electricity in the presence of water?

There that wasn't so hard.

Most of the time, NASA does disclose their questions in the mission statement. There we learn that the questions are often even more loaded than mine. (;

[Brigit]

I just could not bring myself to write a timeline, although I have a working template that I am quite fond of.

The reason is probably because I have had the experience of talking to completely cold cases about planetary instability in the Solar System.

You don't want to dump the truck on them.

And in the end, only the care in how you handle evidence, use observations, conduct experiments, perform field work, and your ability to clearly answer spirited and thoughtful criticism and valid objections is going to matter. It's just too large a task for a quick overview.

And it is also helpful if they have at least a few visuals regarding electrical scarring.

That's why we need to be able to post pictures and graphs on this Forum. Doesn't every one else think this is an inherently visual task and we need to be able to post thumbnails, at least? (:

[Lloyd]

13296

VISUALS HELP

I agree. I'll try to post some pics for my Timeline. It may help also to give estimates of the probability of each aspect of Cataclysmic History and the reasoning behind each estimate.

[GaryN]

Brigit:

That's why we need to be able to post pictures and graphs on this Forum. Doesn't every one else think this is an inherently visual task and we need to be able to post thumbnails, at least? (:

I think the problem is with the phpBB forum software. Although it is free it is not very robust and if someone wants to cause problems with a site, which would seem to be the case with the TB forum, then it is very difficult and time consuming for an admin to counter the attacks. There are some heavy duty commercial forum packages but they are no doubt expensive and there are probably not enough users here to verify such expenses. I do agree visuals can make for a more informative and interesting experience for the reader.

[Lloyd]

I'm thinking of posting pics on my private forum and then linking to them here.

I'm working on it a little here: https://futureschool.boards.net/post/93/thread

[Brigit]

O no Lloyd, I didn't mean there was anything lacking in your timeline! (: But the one you linked does look good with those visuals. You have amply documented your proofs throughout this thread. And I tend to like many of your dates.

Gary N says,

Although it is free it is not very robust and if someone wants to cause problems with a site, which would seem to be the case with the TB forum, then it is very difficult and time consuming for an admin to counter the attacks.

It is probably software, nevertheless I got mixed signals from what the Admin said. Dave Smith said that the images were overloading the pages and making problems for slower connections, and he also said that other sites don't want the images linked directly here. Which makes it sound like a policy change. But for now I guess we link the jpg and hope people come back to the rest post after clicking lol

No one else is as distractable as I am so that is really good.

[Brigit]

Post by GaryN » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:00 am
"I do agree visuals can make for a more informative and interesting experience for the reader."

I remember the good ol days too. In fact some of my favorites were the illustrations of Native American Indian legends of giant snakes forming rivers, which you posted.

[Lloyd]

13691

IMAGES

I like to get Images from the Search Engine, DuckDuckGo, because they link directly to the images online. Also they say they don't track users.

SATURN'S RINGS & ITS HOUSE

Cardona found that the 7 Heavens mentioned in the Bible and 7 other things in other myths referred to the formation of Saturn's rings. I think Cardona thought they were previous rings, because he thought Saturn had flare-ups after the Younger Dryas, which he figured destroyed previous rings, and which I think he misdated. So if I'm right that means the ancients saw Saturn's present rings being formed.

Cardona and others said Venus as a comet formed a circular trail of dust or something around the Saturn system, which is called the Ouroboros, the snake biting its own tail, which the Egyptians called a cartouche or scarab etc, a circle enclosing the name of a king or god etc. They called the circle the House of the god too. He thought there were two different events depicting the Ouroboros as two entirely different things, because of his misdating of the Younger Dryas, I think, so I think there was just one Ouroboros and it occurred not long before the system breakup. I suppose the Ouroboros was different from the Rings, but I plan to look into that more to see if they could be connected after all.

In Egyptian times, says Gary Gilligan, the Sun was depicted as red. He said it was because of dust in the inner solar system. Cardona might have said it was because they were depicting Saturn, rather than the Sun. So that's another aspect I'd like to see resolved.

[Brigit]

by Lloyd » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:49 am
"SATURN'S RINGS & ITS HOUSE
Cardona found that the 7 Heavens mentioned in the Bible and 7 other things in other myths referred to the formation of Saturn's rings."

In the psychoanalytical approach to history, it is assumed that all human events and the arrangement of social order is the result of repressing unconscious hostilities, and are therefore the result of unconscious drives. In this model, the object of study is unable to recognize or acknowledge the reasons for his actions, and it is the job of the psychoanalyst to discover these.

In the psychoanalytical approach to the texts, legends, myths, and folk stories it is assumed that humanity suffered a period of planetary chaos, and that all Sacred writings and all folk tales are unconscious memories of physical events. These events have been sublimated and expressed in various ways, but no matter what any one may consciously say or what a text may say, the meaning is fixed in events involving Saturn.

We can see that in this approach, whether to history, or to an individual's psychology, or to the folk beliefs of people across the millenia, the historian/psychoanalyst is completely absolved from any conscious, rational, or written statements made by his patient. He is only looking for the unconscious drives, and any plain statements, or reasons, or expression of rationality which the patient gives are important only to the extent that they can be re-interpreted as a culturally more acceptable form of the instinctual fear or impulse, which again is known only to the psychoanalytic historian.

Therefore, it not only ignores and denies any plain meanings in texts and legends, it systemetizes this denial of the plain statements of people from across the world and across the ages. It always and without exception assumes the unconscious meaning, which must be supplied by the psychoanalyst historian. Not only that, it is impossible for any people to have responded differently to the past catastrophes, and it is impossible for any text or language to be an exception to the rule which the psychoanalyst is presenting.

In other words, no matter what the observation or what the evidence, it always proves the psychoanalyst's explanation, because he is dealing with unconscious drives, and no conscious statements or rationally presented statement is relevant.

[Brigit]

With that in mind, we might consider carefully the thesis that all people worshiped planets.

Suppose the psychoanalytical historian discovers an ancient text, still held to be true by Jews and Christians all over the world, which forbids the worship of planets? Without expecting a great deal of Biblical literacy, the most famous passages of the entire OT are the Seven days of Genesis 1, and the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. These plainly state that the hosts of heaven were created by one who is outside of physical creation, and is a spiritual being, and that the heavenly bodies are given for the keeping of time and for recognizing seasonal changes. And it forbids the reverence of any celestial object.

• Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness.

• “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

Since this has already been brought to everyone's attention on this thread, I will not belabor the point about just how countercultural this was in the ancient world, esp. during the time of the 18th Dynasty, and even more so afterwards, during the time of the Babylonian, Assyrian, Greek, and Roman Empires. The text also rejects the use of astrology (the study of planetary positions having a mystical effect on human affairs) for solving problems, divining the future, or for making decisions. Idolatry and astrological prognostication were ubiquitous in all of these surrounding cultures. So is it possible that this text means what it says, and this is an extremely interesting exception to the rule, which is planet-worship?

If this is not it, what would a black swan look like?

[Brigit]

Here is an additional statement regarding planet/sun worship:

• And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage. 20 But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt, to be His people, an inheritance, as you are this day. ~Deut 4