Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Lloyd]

28360

CREATIONISM COMMENT

_Lloyd said: Creationists use good reasoning in much of their science, but their religious views are by definition not rational or scientific and I'm not interested in that.
_Brent said: I'm a christian because I have followed the evidence, not because I have disregarded it.

The religious views of Creationists that I was referring to are the idea that the universe was created from nothing and that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Nothingness doesn't exist, so it's illogical that the universe would be made of it. And the evidence is that the Bible is not at all infallible, since it contains many errors and, if it was inspired, it was inspired by "angels" of God, which is what "God" apparently meant when you read about Abraham in the Sodom and Gomorrah episode etc. As I showed recently, many of the Bible events are myths (based on events in the sky) that are common to other cultures too. God is universal consciousness and physical existence is likely part of that consciousness.

[Brigit]

by Lloyd » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:24 am

As I showed recently, many of the Bible events are myths (based on events in the sky) that are common to other cultures too.

Let's get this in proper order. The events in the Old Testament, and many of the myths and legends of the other nations, tribes and tongues, are based on events.

[Brigit]

by Lloyd » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:24 am

the idea that the universe was created from nothing and that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Nothingness doesn't exist, so it's illogical that the universe would be made of it.

That is not what it says. It says that the worlds were made through the spoken word of God, and through the Spirit of God.

We fully admit that this is understood by faith. "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that what is seen is not made by things which are visible."

Let's not forget that most of the EM spectrum is not visible. (:

[Brigit]

The events in the Old Testament, and some of the myths and legends of the other nations, tribes, and tongues, are based on events.

The great utility of this thread, for which I toast the founder of the thread, Lloyd, is that it allows a forum to explore what these Biblical events are, among many others.

The Old Testament records these disasters in plain language, not in allegory.

Here is a list of physical events which are spoken of in plain language.

1. There was a greater light, and a lesser light. These were given to mark seasons, days and years.
2. There was a time of gigantism, both of flora and fauna. This was also a period of much longer lifespans, although the way of marking time may have also undergone a profound change. It became extremely difficult to grow food, even then.
3. There was a time of widespread corruption and violence, which was so profound, it became impossible to live.
4. There was a universal deluge.
5. After the deluge, the rainbow is given special consideration; I interpret this to mean that there is now a new Sun. Sunlight can be refracted in the atmosphere by water and ice crystals, whereas in the light of brown dwarfs and red stars, this is not seen.
6. After the deluge, there was a culture in the plain of Shinar made up of those cities listed in Gen 11.
7. There was a catastrophe which affected speech, and the ability of people to understand each other.
8. There was a period in which these people dispersed, and radiated out from that region into others. This is the main reason the ziggurat/pyramid appears everywhere at once. (Although, the language of the text does not preclude other, simultaneous cultures in other parts of the world, which also had cities, and did not engage at all in unrighteous, idolatrous, slave-based ziggurat building.)
9. Lifespans slowly shortened over the generations from Peleg to Abram and Sarai. In the 1400s BC, Moses said, "The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years,
Yet their boast is only labor and sorrow;
For it is soon cut off, and we fly away."
10. There was a sudden, catastrophic event which destroyed the five cities of the plain with one flash. The area today is covered with salt and sulfur nodules. Asphalt was already present and in widespread use, before the disaster. The language does not preclude the destruction of other cities by the same means, at that time. For example, the city of Thera is now located in a crater in the Mediterranean.
11. 2000 BC - 1860 BC There were great famines during the time of Abram, Isaac, and of Jacob. These caused huge migrations. The family of 70 people moved to Egypt during one of these famines, that is, in c1870 BC. 430 years later, on the day, they left their slavery in Egypt, walked across the Sinai Peninsula, crossed the Sea, received the Law, and went to Canaan.

It is a real pleasure and an honor to work on these historical questions with other catastrophists. It is not possible for every one to agree, but it is still possible to present arguments and many proofs and to agree sometimes.

[Brent72]

I appreciate and applaud how this forum is seeking truth. Especially since truth is so hard to find in this post-modern culture of censored science and media.

I'll let this be my last post as I realise I'm not contributing greatly to the chief aims of this thread.

All I ask of anyone interested is to please test your worldview.
You need to ask yourself; is your belief system logical? Is it empirically adequate? And is it relevant to experience (not just an abstract argument)?
https://www.rzim.org/watch/video/what-i ... nd-destiny
regards, Brent.

[moses]

There was a time of gigantism, both of flora and fauna. This was also a period of much longer lifespans, although the way of marking time may have also undergone a profound change. Brigit

Was the gigantism before the flood or after it?

After the deluge, the rainbow is given special consideration; I interpret this to mean that there is now a new Sun. Sunlight can be refracted in the atmosphere by water and ice crystals, whereas in the light of brown dwarfs and red stars, this is not seen. Brigit

The Sun and stars also would not be seen in a condition of enhanced auroras.

Mo

[Cargo]

In the beginning there were only two stars/gods in the sky, and nothing else. And all life flourished to extreme sizes. Upon the creation and catastrophe, both were lost, and replaced by one star/god. During this time, all the other stars/gods came into view. At first only the nearby planets (and the two dying god stars for a while) were seen, glowing and dimming, streaking and striking, taking many forms of chaos as they were in battle with the conjunction. Then, the chaos was over, and the heavens opened to been seen in full glory for the first time. Thousands of lights more than one could count. Like the dawn of a new age.

[Lloyd]

28579

I agree that we're lucky to have truth seeking and very little censorship on this website, i.e. on the NIAMI board especially.
PS, Brent, anyone is welcome to post questions or comments. We don't have to be scholarly all the time.

WORD & SPIRIT OF GOD

Brigit, the word and spirit of God are nebulous terms. Comparative mythology has found that Spirit likely basically means Wind and Word often means distant loud Sound.

If you do a search at Catastrophism.com on "Spirit of God" you get 40 results.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1

For "Wind" and "Spirit of God" you get 25 results, i.e. presumably 25 out of the above 40 results.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1

For "Word of God" you get 58 results.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1

GIGANTISM

Mo, gigantism likely was prevalent from the beginning of life on Earth, because of Earth's position within the Saturn system and/or because of a former small moon that orbited close to Earth. Earth remained in that position and/or the small moon remained for several centuries after the Great Flood, when the Saturn system broke up. The small moon was discussed in the Tiahuanaco posts. Gigantism was discussed a few times here too. The primary large animals before the Flood were dinosaurs and giant insects. After the Flood the large animals were mammals. Lifespans may have been longer too. There may have been giant humans as well.

To find the former posts on Gigantism, see https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =gigantism
To find those on Tiahuanaco, see https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... Tiahuanaco
For "small moon" see https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... anaco+moon

[moses]

Cargo in blue:
In the beginning there were only two stars/gods in the sky, and nothing else.

Were there people to see these two stars/gods.

And all life flourished to extreme sizes.

So the dinosaurs or the mastodons.

Upon the creation and catastrophe, both were lost, and replaced by one star/god.

So creation and catastrophe were at about the same time.

During this time, all the other stars/gods came into view. At first only the nearby planets (and the two dying god stars for a while) were seen, glowing and dimming, streaking and striking, taking many forms of chaos as they were in battle with the conjunction. Then, the chaos was over, and the heavens opened to been seen in full glory for the first time. Thousands of lights more than one could count. Like the dawn of a new age.

If there was an electrical interaction in the catastrophe then much dust could have been produced so nothing much would be seen until later when the Earth was alone in the Solar System. So, visibly, first the Sun and then the stars and planets, or if there was a nearby planet then this planet after the Sun.

I must say as a general overview I think that you have done well. Even with the differences between everyone's theories I think that many can agree with what you have written.

Mo

[moses]

Lloyd in blue:
Mo, gigantism likely was prevalent from the beginning of life on Earth, because of Earth's position within the Saturn system and/or because of a former small moon that orbited close to Earth.

I'm still going for the thick atmosphere to allow for the huge creatures. The beginning of life on Earth is a big call, but the massive difference in complexity of the few creatures in the Precambrian compared with the Cambrian explosion of creatures indicates a dump from another planet or body. It is clear geological evidence, although the creatures could have evolved on Earth without producing fossils until the fossil-making catastrophe struck.

Earth remained in that position and/or the small moon remained for several centuries after the Great Flood, when the Saturn system broke up. The small moon was discussed in the Tiahuanaco posts. Gigantism was discussed a few times here too. The primary large animals before the Flood were dinosaurs and giant insects. After the Flood the large animals were mammals. Lifespans may have been longer too. There may have been giant humans as well.

It is pretty unlikely lifespans were longer. So where one sees numbers in the very ancient texts those numbers indicate something else. Like all the numbers that relate to the Earth's precession.

I thought that you had the flood from after the precambrian until the mastodons. Having the flood between the dinosaurs and the mastodons startles me. I'm guessing you are putting a previous civilization with the mastodons. And then the Younger Dryas events as the breaking up of the Saturn System. Of course then the previous civilization would be after the flood and not before. My guess is that I have got this wrong.

Mo

[Lloyd]

28703

GIGANTISM

Mo, after learning that a thicker atmosphere would likely not increase buoyancy of large animals much, I thought it must be something else that reduced gravity for them (although there surely was a much thicker atmosphere just the same). I figured the something else must have been tidal forces from the Saturn system, or the close-orbiting small moon that the Sun Gate of Tiahuanaco supposedly described. It seems possible also that the planets of the Saturn system were in free fall toward the Sun, so gravity may have been reduced due to free fall. Another possibility is that a different electrical environment in the Saturn system may have reduced gravity. I guess we can all agree at least that something caused reduced gravity, which allowed gigantism.

[moses]

Sorry Lloyd,
a thicker atmosphere would increase surface pressure so that if the huge creatures had low pressure regions in their bodies then that would increase buoyancy. So no need for gravity to be changed at all although high electrical conditions may well have modified gravity.

Mo

[Lloyd]

29676

CATACLYSMIC HISTORY

I have a thread by that title at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... ic-history

I'm hoping to make an online book there, one that can keep changing as new material comes to light. It's mostly just sort of an outline so far. I guess I'll make a chapter for each age, so that would be 5 chapters.

Here's the Outline or something.

EARTH HISTORY: FIVE AGES

1. 1st Age: EARTH ORIGIN <from EARTH FORMATION to SUPERCONTINENT COLONIZATION: Unknown Origin to 7,000(±1k) BP
https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/49/1-1st-age

2. 2nd Age: GENESIS GOLDEN AGE <from SUPERCONTINENT COLONIZATION to end of the GREAT FLOOD: 7,000(±1k)-4,700(±2c) BP
https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/51/2-2nd-age

3. 3rd Age: LATE GOLDEN AGE <from end of the GREAT FLOOD to end of the YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT: 4,700(±2c)-4,300(±1c) BP
https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/53/3rd-age

4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA <from end of YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT to end of PRECHRISTIAN ERA: 4,300(±1c)-2,020(±5y) BP = 0 AD
https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/55/4th-age

5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA <from end of the CHRISTIAN EVENT to the PRESENT: ------------------------- 2,020(±5y)-0 BP = 0-2020 AD
https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/57/5th-age

[Lloyd]

29897

BIBLICALLY DATING TWO FLOODS OR ONE?

I previously supposed that there were two Great Floods, based on evidence of sedimentary rock having been deposited almost entirely by the Flood and Tiahuanaco having been drowned in a later Flood, which seems to have occurred during the Younger Dryas event, which also seems to be the time of the breakup of the former Saturn-Venus-Mars-Earth system. After Brigit mentioned that there are two opposing Biblical dates for the Flood, I wondered if the earlier date might be the Great Flood date, and the latter might be the YD date. So I looked up info on the two Biblical versions.

The first one is "Bible Chronology Charts".
https://www.bible.ca/manuscripts/Bible- ... 5554BC.htm
_It compares the dates for the Flood based on 3 Bible versions: Greek Septuagint (LXX); Hebrew Masoretic (MT); and Samaritan Pentateuch (SP).
Flood dates are: LXX: 3298 BC; MT: 2518 BC; SP: 3108 or 3168 BC
_The article argues that the MT overlooks 650 years, so the LXX is said to have the correct date.

The second one is "What is the Date of the Biblical Flood?"
https://sedm.org/Forms/17-Theology/TheD ... eFlood.pdf
_It uses similar arguments and concludes that the Flood occurred around 3000 BC.

Offhand, it looks like the MT simply made an error in the dating of the Flood, but maybe the MT editors were influenced by a tradition of a later Flood, i.e. the YD Flood.

I had supposed that the Great Flood occurred about 2,700 BC and the YD Flood about 2,300 BC, but if the LXX is correct, I should date the Great Flood to 3,300 BC, which would have been about a thousand years before the YD Flood, instead of 400 years. I don't understand why the Creationist site, https://creation.com/ , seems to accept the MT version date. Anyway, I guess I'll now revise my timeline.

[JP Michael]

if the LXX is correct

The LXX is incorrect (as is the Samaritan pentateuch). If you want to accept the LXX dating, then you are left with the absurdity that Methuselah lived 14 years after the Deluge, and an obviously incorrect recount that there were 8 people on the ark (Gen. 7:7). The LXX does not touch this verse, leaving it as a fairly literal rendering of the Hebrew: εἰσῆλθεν δὲ Νωε καὶ οἱ υἱοὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ ἡ γυνὴ αὐτοῦ καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες τῶν υἱῶν αὐτοῦ μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν κιβωτὸν διὰ τὸ ὕδωρ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ. This is reiterated in Gen. 7:13: ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ταύτῃ εἰσῆλθεν Νωε, Σημ, Χαμ, Ιαφεθ, υἱοὶ Νωε, καὶ ἡ γυνὴ Νωε καὶ αἱ τρεῖς γυναῖκες τῶν υἱῶν αὐτοῦ μετ᾿ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν. And again in the New Testament (2 Pet. 2:5). 8 people, not 9.

I don't understand why the Creationist site, https://creation.com/ , seems to accept the MT version date. Anyway, I guess I'll now revise my timeline.

Their reasoning is explained clearly here and here.