Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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seasmith
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:51 pm

~
Compare:
Prometheus and Pandora 
Chapter II
From Thomas Bulfinch (1796-1867). Age of Fable: Vols. I & II: Stories of Gods and Heroes. 1913
.
Jupiter, seeing this state of things, burned with anger. He summoned the gods to council. They obeyed the call, and took the road to the palace of heaven. The road, which any one may see in a clear night, stretches across the face of the sky, and is called the Milky Way. Along the road stand the palaces of the illustrious gods; the common people of the skies live apart, on either side. Jupiter addressed the assembly. He set forth the frightful condition of things on the earth, and closed by announcing his intention to destroy the whole of its inhabitants, and provide a new race, unlike the first, who would be more worthy of life, and much better worshippers of the gods. So saying he took a thunderbolt, and was about to launch it at the world, and destroy it by burning; but recollecting the danger that such a conflagration might set heaven itself on fire, he changed his plan, and resolved to drown it. The north wind, which scatters the clouds, was chained up; the south was sent out, and soon covered all the face of heaven with a cloak of pitchy darkness. The clouds, driven together, resound with a crash; torrents of rain fall; the crops are laid low; the year's labour of the husbandman perishes in an hour. Jupiter, not satisfied with his own waters, calls on his brother Neptune to aid him with his. He lets loose the rivers, and pours them over the land. At the same time, he heaves the land with an earthquake, and brings in the reflux of the ocean over the shores. Flocks, herds, men, and houses are swept away, and temples, with their sacred enclosures, profaned. If any edifice remained standing, it was overwhelmed, and its turrets lay hid beneath the waves. Now all was sea, sea without shore. Here and there an individual remained on a projecting hilltop, and a few, in boats, pulled the oar where they had lately driven the plough. The fishes swim among the tree-tops; the anchor is let down into a garden. Where the graceful lambs played but now. unwieldy sea calves gambol. The wolf swims among the sheep, the yellow lions and tigers struggle in the water. The strength of the wild boar serves him not, nor his swiftness the stag. The birds fall with weary win, into the water, having found no land for a resting-place. Those living beings whom the water spared fell a prey to hunger.
Parnassus alone, of all the mountains, overtopped the waves; and there Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, of the race of Prometheus,… “
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library ... inch_2.htm
~Side Note: Deucalion and Pryrra were half-brother and sister, as well as spouses.

Other globalcatastrophe anecdotes ~may~ be found in these legends:
Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh, Azetc story of Coxcoxtli and Xochiquetzal, Greek tales of the Titans battles with the Olympians- plus Phaeton and Helios, the previously cited Norse myth of Ragnarok, Sumerian Ninurta or Ishkur or later Marduk's battles against Tiamat and Anzu, Feridun and Zohak from Persia and, of course, the periodic episodes of carnage and chaos in Vedic myth ( GC, you no doubt know these much better than i do)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vo ... ollection=
"Myths from Mesopotamia" Stephanie Dalley
"The Sumerians, ...." S.N. Kramer
"Gods of the Maya, Aztecs, and Inca" T. R. Roberts
"The Great Year in Greek, Persian and Hindu astronomy" B. L. van der Waerden
~

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:21 pm

~
More on Hero and Monster of Chaos

[from bibliotecapleyades.net]
Image
If Anthony Peratt’s conclusions are correct, then only a few thousand years ago the terrestrial sky was ablaze with electrical activity.
Many observers have marveled at the realism of primitive depictions on the walls of caves in Europe and elsewhere, showing antelope and bison and other animal and plant forms, with great attention to natural detail. Many of the most impressive examples are conventionally dated around twenty to thirty thousand years ago.

Later, however, in close connection to the beginnings of civilization, we observe an explosion of human energy devoted to the utterly fantastic: cosmic serpents and drag ons, winged bulls in the sky, mountains, towers, and stair ways reaching to the center of heaven, “sun” disks with heaven-spanning wings, cosmic “ships” sailing about the sky.
Image

"Theogony"-
…Seizing his weapons, thunder, lightning, and the glowering thunderbolt,
he made a leap from Olympos, and struck, setting fire to all
those wonderful heads set about on the dreaded monster. Then, when
Zeus had put him down with his strokes, Typhon crashed crippled,
and the gigantic earth groaned beneath him, and the flame from the
great lord so thunder-smitten ran out… and a great part of the gigantic
earth burned in the wonderful wind of his heat… and melted in the
flash of the blazing fire
.
Image
In ancient Egypt, the serpent Apep was the archenemy of the creator Ra, and his plotting against Ra produced a tempest in the heavens. Harking back to these events, numerous Egyptian rites commemorated the victory of Ra over Apep. At the temple of Ra in Heliopolis the priests ritually trod underfoot images of Apep to represent his defeat at the hands of the supreme god. At the temple of Edfu, a series of reliefs depict the warrior Horus and his followers vanquishing Apep or his counterpart Set, cutting to pieces the monster’s companions, the "fiends of darkness."

According to W. M. Muller, the spear or harpoon of Horus was a metaphor for the thunderbolt.
"…Lightning is the spear of Horus, and thunder the voice of his wounded antagonist, roaring in his pain."
It is worth noting as well that the Greeks translated Set as Typhon.

Hindu vajra, the cosmic thunderbolt.
In Hindu legends the great warrior Indra, the most revered god of the Vedas, employed lightning in his combat with the monstrous Vritra or Ahi—a giant serpent who had swallowed both the cosmic "waters" and the sun, leaving the world in darkness and despair.
"Indra, whose hand wielded thunder, rent piecemeal Ahi who barred up the waters…"
[ Ice Age ?? ]
"Loud roared the mighty hero’s bolt of thunder, when he, the friend of man, burnt up the monster."
"Moreover, when thou first wast born, o Indra, thou struckest terror into all the people. Thou, Maghavan, rentest with thy bolt the dragon who lay against the water floods of heaven."

The Hebrews, too, preserved an enduring memory of Yahweh’s battle against a dragon of the deep, marked by lightning on a cosmic scale.
"The voice of thy thunder was in the heaven: the lightnings lightened the world: the earth trembled and shook."
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/elect ... gods03.htm

See also the Thunderbolt's excellelent 4-part "Pic 0f the Day" series:

Image
(Note the Seven Heads)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2004/ ... bolt-4.htm
~

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:20 am

Hi seasmith,
Hmmn. Not really ancient texts there.
I would like to know Bullfinch's sources for his rendition of the Prometheus tale. In terms of symbolism there is a lot going on there.
I'll brush up on Coxcoxtli and Xochiquetzal and I look forward to reading about Feridun and Zohak as I've never heard of them.
The book 'The Great Year in Greek, Persian and Hindu astronomy' caught my eye. It sounded interesting until I realised that it said 'astronomy' and not 'astrology'. The ancients didn't do astronomy.
I wasn't too impressed by the Saturn theory stuff from bearfabrique. To me it was just the usual sweeping generalisations, archetypes I don't recognise (e.g. 'chaos hordes') and anachronistic imagery. In short, no meat.

To my mind, the likes of Bullfinch, modern academis and independent researchers all suffer from the same handicap when it comes to interpreting myth. They all ignore the belief system of the ancients and interpret the myths in light of their own theories. I study the belief system (paradigm or worldview) of the ancients via myth, philosophy and religious texts. Doing this it becomes clear that all ancient cultures believed in the same system and that their reason for believing in that system was the same. I call this belief system the Ancient Wisdom. One does not have to subscribe to this belif system in order to interpret myhts but surely, one cannot ignore it and hope to accurately reflect the beliefs of the ancients? I will admit that I presonally find that the Ancient Wisdom is a much better paradigm than the Standard Model or the EU theory or any other.
The ancients were capable of writing in black and white yet they chose to employ allegory, symbolism and metaphor. If one has an understanding of the underlying worldview then one can begin to comprehend why. One doesn't need to ignore it as, for example do the Saturn theorists.
One of my main sources for the interpretation of myths is the writings of various 'esoteric' and 'occult' authors. These writers understand (to a greater or lesser degree) the belief system of the ancients and interpret the myths accordingly. This esoteric tradition can trace its lineage back to ancient times. These authors should not be confused with the peddlars of touchy-feely, New Age twaddle.
Studying the owrld's belief systems gives me breadth of knowledge; studying the esoteric writings gives me depth, i.e. a continuous line from today back to ancient times. All these are singing the same song. Variations on a theme certainly, but it is, at bottom, the same song.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:29 pm

~
Grey Cloud wrote:

...same handicap when it comes to interpreting myth. ...

I don't really have a dog in this hunt brother; just passing on resources.

To the "handicap"; alluded to above:
There is translation, and there is "interpretation", ~ with no clear demarcation between.
Sadly, i cannot translate any ancient dialects (i struggle with middle-English ). We all seem to interpret the Given translations in our own particular light.
For such reasons, i like the 'ancient' images. Same problems of "interpretation", less the obscuration of translation.

Shine it on,
s

Image

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:49 pm

A huge, well organized site recounting the mythology of Australia and Oceana. The Aboriginies had Flood, but don’t appear to remember the Sky Falling.
(Men from down under- please correct me if I’m wrong)

http://www.janesoceania.com/australia_a ... index1.htm

http://www.janesoceania.com/oceaniamyth ... /index.htm
Great flood- Great flood Myths of great floods are bound all across Australia. the mythology of the people of Kimberley stress a great Dreamtime flood which wiped out most of the population of the world. Daisy Utemorrab tells of the time when the people were all drowned. Long ago in the Dreamtime, a group of children began teasing Dumbi the owl, a sacred bird connected to the Wandjina. they tortured him, but at last he managed to fly away and to the Wandjina where he complained of his treatment. The Wandina became angry and sent thunder and lightning and rain. The rain fell and fell, and the waters rose and rose until all the people were drowned, except for two children, male and female, who managed to grap hold of the tail of a kangaroo and thus were carried to higher ground. Daisy Utemorrah says that it was from these two children that humankind continued. See also Floods, Gondwanaland; Wallunggnari; Yarra river and Port Phillip.
Yulunggul- Yulunggul is the giant serpent which swallowed the Duwa ancestral beings the Wawilag sisters and then later regurgitated them. He is sometimes seen as a rainbow. He is said to make lightning with his forked tongue and the thunder is his voice. See also Duwa moiety; Gunabibi; Gunabibi ceremonies.
Image

Grey Cloud
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Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:13 am

Here are two stories from Homer featuring Aphrodite/Venus and Ares/Mars. The first is from the Odyssey and the second from the Iliad.
At one time I did think that the first story might have related to planetary catastrophe but the more I thought about it the less convinced I became. The key to this story is Hephaestus/Vulcan: what does he represent?
I've just come across the second story while re-reading the Iliad. My interpretation of this story has nothing to do with planetary catastrophe. Having said that, these stories can have more than one meaning so it is not necessarily ruled out.
Here's the stories, enjoy.
http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeLoves.html#Ares
"Demodokos [the Phaiakian bard] struck his lyre and began a beguiling song about the loves of Ares and Aphrodite, how first the lay together secretly in the dwelling of Hephaistos. Ares had offered many gifts to the garlanded divinity and covered with shame the marriage bed of Lord Hephaistos. But Helios (the sun-god) had seen them in their dalliance and hastened away to tell Hephaistos; to him the news was bitter as gall, and he made his way towards his smithy, brooding revenge. He laid the great anvil on its base and set himself to forge chains that could not be broken or torn asunder, being fashioned to bind lovers fast. Such was the device that he made in his indignation against Ares, and having made it he went to the room where his bed lay; all round the bed-posts he dropped the chains, while others in plenty hung
from the roof-beams, gossamer-light and invisible to the blessed gods themselves, so cunning had been the workmanship. When the snare round the bed was complete, he made as if to depart to Lemnos, the pleasant-sited town, which he loved more than any place on earth.

Ares, god of the golden reins, was no blind watcher. Once he had seen Hephaistos go, he himself approached the great craftman’s dwelling, pining for love of Kytherea [Aphrodtie]. As for her, she had just returned from the palace of mighty Zeus her father, and was sitting
down in the house as Ares entered it. He took her hand and spoke thus to her: ‘Come, my darling; let us go to bed and take our delight together. Hephaistos is no longer here; by now, I think, he has made his way to Lemnos, to visit the uncouth-spoken Sintians.’
So he spoke, and sleep with him was a welcome thought to her. So they went to the bed and there lay down, but the cunning chains of Polyphron (crafty) Hephaistos enveloped them, and they could neither raise their limbs nor shift them at all; so they saw the truth when there was no escaping. Meanwhile Periklytos Amphigueeis (the lame craftsman god) approached; he had turned back short of the land of Lemnos, since watching Helios (the sun-god) had told him everything.
Cut to the heart, he neared his house and halted inside the porch; savage anger had hold of him, and he roared out hideously, crying to all the gods: ‘Come, Father Zeus; come, all you blessed immortals with him; see what has happened here - no matter for laughter nor yet
forbearance. Aphrodite had Zeus for father; because I am lame she never ceased to do me outrage and give her love to destructive Ares, since he is handsome and sound-footed and I am a cripple from my birth; yet for that my two parents are to blame, no one else at all,
and I wish they had never begotten me. You will see the pair of lovers now as they lie embracing in my bed; the sight of them makes me sick at heart. Yet I doubt their desire to rest there longer, fond as they are. They will soon unwish their posture there; but my cunning chains shall hold them both fast till her father Zeus has given me back all the betrothal gifts I bestowed on him for his wanton daughter; beauty she has, but no sense of shame.’
Thus he spoke, and the gods came thronging there in front of the house with its brazen floor. Poseidon the Earth-Sustainer came, and Hermes the Mighty Runner, and Lord Apollon who shoots from afar; but the goddesses, every one of them, kept within doors for very shame. Thus then the bounteous gods stood at the entrance. Laughter they could not quench rose on the lips of these happy beings as they fixed their eyes on the stratagem of Hephaistos, and glancing each at his neighbour said some such words as these: ‘Ill deeds never prosper; swift after all is outrun by slow; here is Hephaistos the slow and crippled, yet by his cunning he has defeated the swiftest of all the Olympian gods, and Ares must pay an adulterer’s penalty.’ …
For Poseidon there was no laughing; he kept imploring the master smith Hephaistos in hopes that he would let Ares go. He spoke in words of urgent utterance: ‘Let him go; I promise that he shall pay in full such rightful penalty as you ask for - pay in the presence of all the gods.’ But the great lame craftsman answered him: ‘Poseidon, Sustainer of the Earth, do not ask this of me. Pledges for trustless folk are trustless pledges. If Ares should go his way, free of his chains and his debt alike, what then? Could I fetter yourself in the presence of all the gods.’
Poseidon who shakes the earth replies: ‘Hephaistos, if Ares indeed denies his debt and escapes elsewhere, I myself will pay what you ask.’ Then Periklytos Amphigueeis (the great lame craftsman) answered him: ‘I must no and cannot refuse you now’, and with that he undid the chains, powerful though they had proved. Unshackled thus, the lovers were up and off at once; Ares went on his way to Thrake, and Aphrodite the laughter-lover to Paphos in Kypros." - Homer, Odyssey 8.267
http://www.theoi.com/Text/HomerIliad21.html
[382]...Then no more held they long aloof, for Ares, piercer of shields, began the fray, and first leapt upon Athene, brazen spear in hand, and spake a word of reviling: "Wherefore now again, thou dog-fly, art thou making gods to clash with gods in strife, in the fierceness of thy daring, as thy proud spirit sets thee on?
Rememberest thou not what time thou movedst Diomedes, Tydeus' son, to wound me, and thyself in the sight of all didst grasp the spear and let drive straight at me, and didst rend my fair flesh? Therefore shalt thou now methinks, pay the full price of all that thou hast wrought."
[400] So saying he smote upon her tasselled aegis—the awful aegis against which not even the lightning of Zeus can prevail—thereon blood-stained Ares smote with his long spear. But she gave ground, and seized with her stout hand a stone that lay upon the plain, black and
jagged and great, that men of former days had set to be the boundary mark of a field. Therewith she smote furious Ares on the neck, and loosed his limbs. Over seven roods he stretched in his fall, and befouled his hair with dust, and about him his armour clanged. But
Pallas Athene broke into a laugh, and vaunting over him she spake winged words: "Fool, not even yet hast thou learned how much mightier than thou I avow me to be, that thou matchest thy strength with mine. On this wise shalt thou satisfy to the full the Avengers invoked of
thy mother, who in her wrath deviseth evil against thee, for that thou hast deserted the Achaeans and bearest aid to the overweening Trojans."
[415] When she had thus spoken, she turned from Ares her bright eyes. Him then the daughter of Zeus, Aphrodite, took by the hand, and sought to lead away, as he uttered many a moan, and hardly could he gather back to him his spirit. But when the goddess, white-armed Hera, was ware of her, forthwith she spake winged words to Athene: "Out upon it, thou child of Zeus that beareth the aegis, unwearied one, lo, there again the dog-fly is leading Ares, the bane of mortals, forth from the fury of war amid the throng; nay, have after her."
[423] So spake she, and Athene sped in pursuit, glad at heart, and rushing upon her she smote Aphrodite on the breast with her stout hand; and her knees were loosened where she stood, and her heart melted. So the twain lay upon the bounteous earth, and vaunting over
them Athene spake winged words: "In such plight let all now be that are aiders of the Trojans when they fight against the mail-clad Argives, and on this wise bold and stalwart, even as Aphrodite came to bear aid to Ares, and braved my might. Then long ere this should we
have ceased from war, having sacked Ilios, that well-peopled city."
Any new insights or mad ideas?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:00 pm

~
GC,

A problem i have with getting to the gritty of the Greek mythes, and especially those featuring the Prodigal Daughter Goddess, (such as recounted above);
is that they embrace in their stories All known previous pantheons.
Then, depending on which dendritic branch of Greeks who are telling the tale, they will have the same root deity- in a different regional guise interacting with themselves !

As major daughter-goddess figures, do for example either Inanna, Ishtar, Hathor, Athene, Aphrodite, Artemis, Dione, Astarte, etc,;
have any planet other than Venus as their planet ?

[ I'm up to the earholes in Schwaller just now, or or i would delve deeper into the mist of Vedic myth for leads ] :geek:

s

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:28 pm

Hi Seasmith,
First off, there are worse things to be up to your earholes in than Schwaller. :shock: Which book are you reading?

I don't buy this conflating of gods and shoe-horning them into a planet. As far as I'm aware only the Saturn theorists do this. They must to make their theory(-ies) workable (-ish). Sticking with the Greeks, ancient writers such as Homer, Plato, Plutarch and so on, were very intelligent people who were part of this culture. None of them (to my knowledge at least) ever mentions this conflating or writes as though it was so. Show me a Greek writer equating Athene with the planet Venus. Or Herakles with Mars.
Gods, goddesses, nymphs etc are the vocabulary (if you will) with which ancient cultures discussed this topic (the natural world). The deities are reifications, anthropomorphisations, personifications of natural processes or parts of that process. See Plato's Cratylus where the etymology of the gods' names are discussed. They all boil down to either movement or mind. Interestingly, the only two names Socrates/Plato refuses to discuss are Aphrodite and Dionysus. He doesn't say why which makes me curious.
It is the attributes associated with each god which are the key. Another factor is the numerical value of each gods' name. This makes it impossible for Aphrodite and Athene to be the same thing.
The one planet which may be an exception to this is Earth. This is because Earth is an exception in that Earth is deemed the centre of the universe in the sense that everything happening under the fixed stars is because of we humans and we live on Earth. So Gaia is Earth and the likes of Persephone, Demeter or Artemis are, for want of a better way of expressing it, sub-processes of the process planet Earth.

As I stated above, I'm not quite sure what is going on in the Venus/Mars 'conjunction' in the first story. But here is my take on the second one, even though I have not yet thought it through properly: Aphrodite and Ares represent emotions or passions as the Greeks had it. Athene is is mind (her name is related to nous). Mind has just overcome the passions - this is what the Iliad is about: mind overcoming emotion/passion. On a different, though related, tack, Aphrodite and Ares represent the love and strife of Empedocles' philosophy. I know that technically, Ares and strife (Eris) are not the same but Eris is one of his entourage. Love and war/strife are two opposites (the Principle of Polarity). Add mind and you have an example of the Law of Three which operates throughout the cosmos. It is no different in concept to Aristotle's continuums. See also Yin and Yang. Think balance and harmony and movement. Two opposites will just sit there cancelling each other out. If a third factor is added then the opposites will careen from one extreme to the other. Mind (or intelligence or consciousness) is the control mechanism, if you will.

It is not that the Greeks etc incorporated all previous pantheons per se but that the underlying philosophy as incorporated into those pantheons was the same so it was therefore possible to chop and change between, e.g. the Greek, Babylonian, Egyptian goddesses of love or whoever. The Babylonian god of war, for example, didn't get incorporated as the Greek goddess of love.

Greek philosophy, mythology and religion (the Mysteries) speak with one voice. They address the same worldview from different angles. Another way of looking at it is as 'horses for courses' or 'different strokes for different folks'. It was down to ones own personality as to which route was chosen.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:24 pm

~
GC,
'
I take it as a given that Greek Athene was a later reincarnation of Inanna (see any version of the 'Descent of Inanna' for smack-jam parallels).

For them as Venus, for starters, see :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna

Also Athene's later Roman incarnation Was Venus.

[Haven't read the rest of your post yet]

s
~

Grey Cloud
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:39 pm

Seasmith wrote
Also Athene's later Roman incarnation Was Venus.
Minerva surely?
I'll read the wiki article properly tomorrow but I don't see Inana the goddess of love and war as parallel to Athene. Neither did Homer.
I'll re-read Inana's descent tomorrow but off the top of my head I don't see any parallels with Athene's exploits.
Until the morrow then...
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:52 pm

GREY CLOUD wrote:
Greek philosophy, mythology and religion (the Mysteries) speak with one voice. They address the same worldview from different angles. Another way of looking at it is as 'horses for courses' or 'different strokes for different folks'. It was down to ones own personality as to which route was chosen.
Well just spent an hour addressing this only to have the blippin (*&^%$#@!forum evaporate it and i'm too pissed off to remember it all but basicly this:

Greeks considered alone have a 2000 year history in which they became more sophisticated, through Early Helladic, Mycaean, the interesting "Dark Age" [~1100-900 BC], and Oriental period; before ever getting to your Homeric classical age. ? [ Can we put ourselves in the minds of say the Twelve Apostles now, 2000 years later ;) ]
Their myths are predated by Egyptian and Sumerian. [ Think Plato or somebody stated flatly that every thing they knew came via the Egyptian priests ]
Sumerian / Egyptian / Greek mythic parallels are strong ie: journeys to netherworld, return journeys, quests for power, heroic combats, aquiring weapons, instruments, wardrobes attributes, creating noise-light and general heanen & earth upheavals, establish temples/cults and etc.
Greeks were the epitome of consummate Self-Aware self seekers [Jaynes' bi-cameral mind and all that crap], who could take any child's fable and spin it into a virtual fugue of dramatic existential miniseries... [which the no-nonsense Norse folk later turned back in to fables ;) ].
Similar words and deeds, thru a different voice :?:
Seems readily apparent, imo that, those which were originally recountings of colossal events by dazed and confused observers; later became primal themes for the the rich psychological investigations of the most self-absorbed cult of personality to ever hit the dirt (up to the present generation of navel suckers...).

For some parallel translations of the exploits of Ninurta-Inanna vis Apollo- Aphrodite, Demeter, Athene, see the copiously footnoted:
"Greek Myths and Mesopotamia"
by Charles Penglase

1994

~

seasmith
Posts: 2815
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by seasmith » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:22 pm

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Hathor is not originally an Egyptian Goddess. She is widely believed to be of Semitic origin, starting off as Ishtar in Mesopotamia, evolving into Ashtarte in Assyria, becoming Ashtoreth on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean (Israel/Phoenicia/Philistines). She even migrated to Cyprus and beyond as Aphrodite and Venus, while the Egyptians adopted her as Hathor some time after the Old Kingdom. The peak of her career in the Egyptian Pantheon came as nursemaid and wife of the God Horus. The name therefore translates as "House of Horus". The Egyptians largely preferred to keep their own gods, but Hathor stuck after the prolonged mining expedition to the Sinai and Negev starting from the reign of Sneferu in the Old Kingdom. The mining expeditions resumed during the Middle Kingdom and the New Kingdom when Egyptian political stability allowed it. Flinders Petrie wrote in his 1906 Researches In The Sinai that the Egyptians believed foreign gods had power on respective territory and were to be respected. Hathor was primarily a fertility Goddess, as suggested by the cow horns. She was also called the “Mistress of the Turquoise” and the goddess of way farers. This made her the patron goddess of miners as Turquoise and Copper was the primary ore sought in these expeditions. The Egyptian largely depended on inspiration to find gems and metals as there was little technology. This came from dreams in “Sleep Chambers” at the temples on the Sinai. The expedition leaders and foremen would pray for signs and wait for a dream to tell them where to dig next. As the revenues from the Sinai mines were considerable, the cult of Hathor quickly spread to the banks of the Nile upon the triumphant return of the miners. AlexHunger
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=14711

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nick c
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by nick c » Wed Oct 29, 2008 6:30 pm

hi seasmith,

Nice picture of and text about the goddess Hathor/Venus. She could be very destructive according to Egyptian myth, much like her Mesopotamian counterpart Innana/Ishtar/Venus. It is puzzling to me how anyone could look at this picture and not see that Hathor is a personification of a celestial body ;) What more evidence does anyone need? She is wearing a celestial body on her head! enclosed in a pair of horns (Venus symbol) and wrapped around by a snake (comet symbol.)
If he is said to be the son of Isis, he is Osirian; otherwise he is a solar deity. The solar Horus was called the son of Atum, or Re, or Geb and Nut variously.
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm
Hathor is the eye of Ra, and her name means House of Horus. How is it that a goddess could be a "house" for the sun god? The answer to that is in the serpent entwining the celestial disc on top of her head, this is the Aten, the enclosure of the sun god. But that relates to events that took place much earlier. An interesting article relating the Aten to Athene (I don't believe it is available on line) is:
Pensee vol II # 2 "Akhnaten, Aten and Venus Reconsidered" by Lewis M. Greenberg
The article connects the heretical religion of Akhnaten (not the first monotheist as often portrayed) with worship of the planet Venus. As an aside it has been proposed that the Exodus story of the worship of the golden calf was indeed a cult of Hathor that the Hebrews had picked up while in Egypt. [And let us not forget the catastrophes that befell Egypt in that story (Exodus.)] Though these two events are not synchronized in time, I brought them up as they involve the worship of Venus, a goddess or god who took many forms and was feared and sacrificed to, around the world.
Also, take note of the ankh (life) heiroglyph held in the goddess' hand, this has been handed down to us today as the astrological symbol of the planet Venus. Our name for the planet is from the latin [url2=http://www.yourdictionary.com/venire]ad venire[/url2], to come or to arrive. An appropriate name for one who was seen as a "newcomer."

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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by kevin » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:24 am

Seasmith,
If a dowser desires to find a specific anything, the dowser thinks only of that anything.
The precise position of where the dowsers head is positioned during sleep( vector point) will assist connection.
The hands are chirile.
From the surface upto aprox 30 inchs above surface, at present, is an opposite to all above, the ankh is held down into that polarity, the staff is held high and angled.
look for bells that would shimmer and such.
Each alignment may correspond to a specific planet/star ( g-d), and specific alignment crossing points may be where certain elements are formed at high transfer rates occur during time?
The scarab beetle finds the vector point , and creation occurs, hence call it a g-d?
I look at all Egyptian pictures and such with a dowsers hat on, and an electrical biase of duality, they may well have trained people to stay fixed to a specific signal, and the pictures will reveal this, but not to just ordinary archaeologists, they are sceptics, par excellence.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:37 am

Hi Seasmith,
You wrote
Well just spent an hour addressing this only to have the blippin (*&^%$#@!forum evaporate it ...
I worship at the Church of Notepad. Enter and be saved brother.

I understand your point about the relatively late arrival of the Greeks but they Greeks did not just spring from the ground. The Hellenes, if I'm not mistaken, entered Greece from the north. They would have presumably had some sort of belief system.
Part of the problem here I think, is that youself and virtually everyone else thinks in terms of Darwinian evolution. That is, you all toe the primitive hunter-gatherers trying to invent civilisation on the wing line, as it were. I subscribe to the opposite view, i.e. that we have been going downhill (from the Golden Age). My position is based upon the ancient texts not modern academic theories.

You wrote
Greeks were the epitome of consummate Self-Aware self seekers [Jaynes' bi-cameral mind and all that crap], who could take any child's fable and spin it into a virtual fugue of dramatic existential miniseries... [which the no-nonsense Norse folk later turned back in to fables].
I have no idea what you mean by 'self-aware self seekers' but I agree that Jaynes' bicameral mind theory is crap. Even his fellow academics didn't buy it. Having just re-read the Iliad, Jaynes notions about 'hearing voices in their heads' is way off. The book is, among other
things, about left- and right- brain and mind. The voices the characters are hearing are just the internal dialogue we all partake of. Right thought leads to right action which leads to right living - the Good Life.
I also disagree with your assessment of the no-nonsense Norse compared to the Greeks. Norse myth tells exactly the same story as the Greek (or any other). Incidentally, a lot of the people in the Iliad are big and blonde.
Seems readily apparent, imo that, those which were originally recountings of colossal events by dazed and confused observers; later became primal themes for the the rich psychological investigations of the most self-absorbed cult of personality to ever hit the dirt (up to the present generation of navel suckers...).
Again, I disagree entirely with this 'dazed and confused survivors', collective amnesia thing. It seems to say that these ancient peoples (every last man-jack of them) could formulate a complex mythology, full of symbolism and subtlety but not one of them, from any culture,
from anywhere in the world, had the wit to state plainly that the Earth had been zapped.

Thanks for the Penglase book, I'm reading it at the minute. Only at the intro so far so I wont comment. If anyone else is interested, it can be read here:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M5nr ... englase+Gr
eek+Myths+and+Mesopotamia&pg=PP1&ots=o3wnxVu0bk&source=bn&sig=KGNIb_ks
QENQ2KnA8yszvqEWYB0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA230,M1
(Hope I typed that right ;) )

The stuff about Hathor in the second post is jut the opinion of some guy with a website who is regurgitating the official line.
Compare what Kevin wrote in his post with what Schwaller says about the workings of the Egyptian mindset.

Over this coming weekend I am going to try to set out the ancient belief system as I see it. If I can do this I am hoping that my interpretation of myths etc will make more sense. It doesn't matter if one believes what they ancients believed just that one accepts that this is what they believed. It will also, hopefully, show just why most if not all of the modern theories about what the ancients were thinking or not thinking, are wrong.

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If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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