Are the planets growing?

[Aardwolf]

Nor the lower gravity requirement for dinosaurs. The very fact of their bone sturdiness/structure is explained by their having to survive in the current gravity.

And what about Meganeura?

Do you believe that a 450 gram carniverous dragonfly (about the size of a rat) with flimsy gossamer-like wings would be able to, not only attain flight, but actively hunt and carry away its prey in our current gravity? Even when you consider that the largest current insect utilising a similar flight mechanism (the Atlas Moth) only weighs 12 grams. And when you consider that its flying and hunting method includes sharp angular turns, instant stopping, backwards flight, high speed etc.

If someone were to propose that a rat size creature were able to manoeuver in this way prior to the discovery of the meganeura, they would have not only have been declared a crackpot, but clinically insane.

[allynh]

Journeyman, you might want to check out the thread that junglelord started last year. I added a brief note to pop the thread back into view.

Paul LaViolette's Aether Model
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... 241#p29650

The concept of aether(whatever that turns out to be) is the key to everything EU and GET.

[webolife]

Them are some strong words Aardwolf... But anyone discovering eagles for the first time after only knowing about hummingbirds would be likely amazed and shocked at their speed, soaring and diving agility, and long distance vision... In fact there are amazing abilities of thousands of varieties of living animals and plants that are totally mind dumbing to consider. Why should huge insects be able to move precisely as small ones do?

[Lloyd]

Journeman said: ... the Universe IS getting larger as new matter is coming into being. These processes occur in preference in and around already created matter & energy, which helps explain the large scale structure of the Universe we see. Such processes in galactic centres also generate massive surges of expulsion, leading LaViolette in the direction of his Superwave ideas, but to me, providing a source for Halton Arp's 'new' matter which displays high RedShift (RS) values that decline as it interacts with the surrounding medium.

* I don't believe there's evidence that the universe is growing, since the only supposed evidence seems to be the red shift equals distance and velocity theory, and EU and Arp do not accept that. Instead, EU likely accepts that red shift of light from stars, galaxies, quasars etc is due to ionization of matter in those objects. And I think the matter in the matter-rich portions of the universe was scavenged from the great voids by Marklund convection processes, which I believe is an electric discharge process. As an example, quasars appear to start out in Active Galactic Nuclei very small and nearly massless, but shoot out at high velocity usually via the poles. And they're highly positively ionized, due to electrons being delayed by magnetic effects of the AGN. The quasar moves quickly away from the galaxy, but scavenges matter from the intergalactic medium as it goes. This gradually reduces the velocity, until it reaches about 2 million light years distance. The quasar grows into a galaxy in this way and it grows by gathering up existing matter between galaxies, not by creating new matter. See? That's Arp's and Thornhill's explanation, as I understand them.

[Aardwolf]

Them are some strong words Aardwolf... But anyone discovering eagles for the first time after only knowing about hummingbirds would be likely amazed and shocked at their speed, soaring and diving agility, and long distance vision... In fact there are amazing abilities of thousands of varieties of living animals and plants that are totally mind dumbing to consider. Why should huge insects be able to move precisely as small ones do?

You cant comnpare the flight of a bird to the flight of a dragonfly. It's not even worth discussing. Can an eagle hover, fly backwards or turn at a right angle at full speed? And while you may be amazed they dont defy any physical laws. The reason that the meganeura should be compared to the dragonfly is because they are virtually indistinguishable from each other apart from size. There is absolutely no reason to beleive that they flew or survived any differently to their modern counterparts. This was a viscious, fast, carniverous predator. Are you suggesting it evolved a 2.5 ft wingspan of thin veiny wings just to crawl around on the floor? Or are you stating that you think this could actually fly in in our gravity?

EDIT: PS. The largest hummingbird only weighs 20 grams if you prefer that for flight mechanic comparisons.

[remelic]

Them are some strong words Aardwolf... But anyone discovering eagles for the first time after only knowing about hummingbirds would be likely amazed and shocked at their speed, soaring and diving agility, and long distance vision... In fact there are amazing abilities of thousands of varieties of living animals and plants that are totally mind dumbing to consider. Why should huge insects be able to move precisely as small ones do?

You cant comnpare the flight of a bird to the flight of a dragonfly. It's not even worth discussing. Can an eagle hover, fly backwards or turn at a right angle at full speed? And while you may be amazed they dont defy any physical laws. The reason that the meganeura should be compared to the dragonfly is because they are virtually indistinguishable from each other apart from size. There is absolutely no reason to beleive that they flew or survived any differently to their modern counterparts. This was a viscious, fast, carniverous predator. Are you suggesting it evolved a 2.5 ft wingspan of thin veiny wings just to crawl around on the floor? Or are you stating that you think this could actually fly in in our gravity?

Smaller Earth = weaker gravity...
This is an undeniable fact.

Earth had to be smaller to allow these huge lifeforms to exist.....

OR

The environment was different in that the air was more dense which can also be explained having a smaller Earth because the atmospheric pressure at ground level would be greater then today. If the volume of the atmosphere remained the same (there is no reason to believe it wasn't) then the pressure would be greater allowing a more dense environment.

No matter how you look at it, Earth was smaller in the past.

[Aardwolf]

In addition, if you want to stick to the eagle analogy, an eagle's wing muscles alone can account for 50% of its entire body weight. Which means that the wings in their entirety are easily more than 50% of the weight of the whole bird. For an eagle to fly, obviously a large proportion of its existence is devised just to get it in the air (as for most birds). As for the Meganeura, I would be surprised if those gossamer-like wings account for much more than a few % of its weight. And these are much better flyers than an eagle. IMO unsurpassed in nature anywhere.

[Aardwolf]

Them are some strong words Aardwolf... But anyone discovering eagles for the first time after only knowing about hummingbirds would be likely amazed and shocked at their speed, soaring and diving agility, and long distance vision... In fact there are amazing abilities of thousands of varieties of living animals and plants that are totally mind dumbing to consider. Why should huge insects be able to move precisely as small ones do?

You cant comnpare the flight of a bird to the flight of a dragonfly. It's not even worth discussing. Can an eagle hover, fly backwards or turn at a right angle at full speed? And while you may be amazed they dont defy any physical laws. The reason that the meganeura should be compared to the dragonfly is because they are virtually indistinguishable from each other apart from size. There is absolutely no reason to beleive that they flew or survived any differently to their modern counterparts. This was a viscious, fast, carniverous predator. Are you suggesting it evolved a 2.5 ft wingspan of thin veiny wings just to crawl around on the floor? Or are you stating that you think this could actually fly in in our gravity?

Smaller Earth = weaker gravity...
This is an undeniable fact.

Earth had to be smaller to allow these huge lifeforms to exist.....

OR

The environment was different in that the air was more dense which can also be explained having a smaller Earth because the atmospheric pressure at ground level would be greater then today. If the volume of the atmosphere remained the same (there is no reason to believe it wasn't) then the pressure would be greater allowing a more dense environment.

No matter how you look at it, Earth was smaller in the past.

I dont think it can be explained just by increasing the pressure of air. I dont think the difference is significant enough to allow what appears to be a current upper limit of around 20 grams for this type of flight to increase 20 fold to 450 grams. It also doesn't explain any of the other size problems associated with the large land dinosaurs. The only thing that solves all the problems is lower gravity.

[webolife]

Aardwolf... you are all about "if" and "appears" and " I don't think"... which I commend you for because that's honest science. But the history of scientific paradigms is full of "there-is-no-other" explanations which a few pieces of key evidence overturn in a single generation. Of course you know this since you are posting on the EU forum... But perhaps you missed my analogy... I wasn't comparing birds to dragonflies. I was suggesting that dragonflies : meganeura :: hummingbirds : eagles might be an appropriate way to explain how meganeura could fly in our present gravity without having to perform the same acrobatics as their smaller relatives. You don't really know how meganeurae flew, only that they got buried in sediments and fossilized. Do you also forget that the smaller dragonflies were present with their larger cousins? Or compare the erratic flight of houseflies with the maneuverability of a hoverfly. Though behavior requires morphology, morphology doesn't necessarily prescribe behavior. I also challenge your assumption that variation = evolution. There are many similarities in design and function between organisms with no evolutionary relationship to each other. Speaking of hummingbirds, however, the range of hummingbird weights today is from 2 grams [bee hummingbird] to over 120 grams [giant hummingbird, South America], yet we make no issue of them both thriving in the same gravitational conditions.
Similar weight ranges can be found in nearly every family [or order] of organism. And speaking of South America, the acteon beetle can grow up to 3.5 feet long, yes in today's gravity...

[Grey Cloud]

Webolife wrote:

And speaking of South America, the acteon beetle can grow up to 3.5 feet long, yes in today's gravity...

Typo methinks. 9cm is approx 3.5 inches.

[webolife]

Well, hey...you are absolutely correct and I'm full of betelgeuse. Not a typo, exactly... astigmatism.
3.5 inches it is! Not such a big deal, so how about the world's smallest and largest reptiles, 16 mm dwarf gecko, and ~800,000 mm saltwater croc? The scale difference here is phenomenal, yet the gravity is just the same.

[Grey Cloud]

Well, hey...you are absolutely correct and I'm full of betelgeuse. Not a typo, exactly... astigmatism.
3.5 inches it is! Not such a big deal, so how about the world's smallest and largest reptiles, 16 mm dwarf gecko, and ~800,000 mm saltwater croc? The scale difference here is phenomenal, yet the gravity is just the same.

An 800 metre croc? (874.890639 yards). Are you sure it's not an aircraft carrier? 8,000mm = 8.74yds = approx 26ft.
I think you should quit while you're behind.

[Aardwolf]

Aardwolf... you are all about "if" and "appears" and " I don't think"... which I commend you for because that's honest science. But the history of scientific paradigms is full of "there-is-no-other" explanations which a few pieces of key evidence overturn in a single generation. Of course you know this since you are posting on the EU forum... But perhaps you missed my analogy... I wasn't comparing birds to dragonflies. I was suggesting that dragonflies : meganeura :: hummingbirds : eagles might be an appropriate way to explain how meganeura could fly in our present gravity without having to perform the same acrobatics as their smaller relatives. You don't really know how meganeurae flew, only that they got buried in sediments and fossilized. Do you also forget that the smaller dragonflies were present with their larger cousins? Or compare the erratic flight of houseflies with the maneuverability of a hoverfly. Though behavior requires morphology, morphology doesn't necessarily prescribe behavior. I also challenge your assumption that variation = evolution. There are many similarities in design and function between organisms with no evolutionary relationship to each other. Speaking of hummingbirds, however, the range of hummingbird weights today is from 2 grams [bee hummingbird] to over 120 grams [giant hummingbird, South America], yet we make no issue of them both thriving in the same gravitational conditions.
Similar weight ranges can be found in nearly every family [or order] of organism. And speaking of South America, the acteon beetle can grow up to 3.5 feet long, yes in today's gravity...

You really need to start checking your facts. The Patagona Gigas weighs 20 grams.

And no, the meganeura did not fly like an eagle or any other bird. As I already stated over 50% of the weight, muscles, etc. is required to keep a bird in flight. The physiology of the meganeura is completely different. Just look at it. It cannot produce the forces required from the tiny muscles and flimsy wings it uses to fly. And this is flight which is superior to bird flight. It's clear you just refuse to accept this because it goes against your fundamental beliefs about the geological past.

[allynh]

The Theodore Holden book, Dinosaurs, Gravity, and Changing Scientific Paradigms covers the topic best. He looks at all the different methods for low gravity in the past.

There are tons of great books listed in this thread and all the threads that have been linked to. Track them down, read through them a few times as you review the thread and links, and most of the basic questions will be answered.

Everything is there, nothing is concealed, people just have to do their homework.

[allynh]

Small-Scale Moon
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/ ... lscale.htm

Look at the image, and notice that the burns on the ball on the right does not match the actual crust/mantle cracking of the growing moon on the left.

Look at the close-up shot and you will see that the TPOD makes the point for the Growing Earth Theory rather than electrical discharge machining(EDM) as EU Dogma proposes.

Keep those great TPODs coming.