Asteroids

[Max Photon]

Hi Rossim,

Thanks for the information. Is you question:

Why would an asteroid with a nearly perfectly circular orbit -- that is, with negligible radial component to the sun -- exhibit possible electrical effects in the form of a highly coherent spoked tail system, as the EU proponents seem to suggest?

Good question! Who knows if those are electrical effects in the first place?

If they are, then their excitation means the asteroid is in a time- and/or spatially-variable electromagnetic field.

Radial motion through the inverse field of charged sun is not the only source such EM variability from the asteroid's perspective.

We are merely conjecturing other possible sources.

[Rossim]

Thanks for the clarification Max, that is indeed what I was questioning. Since, according to W. Thornhill, the primary difference between a comet and an asteroid is the radial component of its orbit, it's unfortunate that the concept cannot be applied in the case of P/2013P5's sudden display of cometary jets.

[Max Photon]

You are welcome Rossim.

But all is not lost! Remember, a symmetric, radially-decreasing electric field around the sun assumes a static situation: a fixed blob of charge. But given the time- and spatially-variable "solar winds" for example, and we now no longer have a static EM situation.

NASA released an animated GIF of ISON and Encke passing through a solar-variable environment.

[Dotini]

But given the time- and spatially-variable "solar winds" for example, and we now no longer have a static EM situation.

NASA released an animated GIF of ISON and Encke passing through a solar-variable environment.

Given the solar magnetic field reversal currently in progress, the electrical environment of the sun should be even more dynamic than usual.

[Sparky]

What is all that dancing about??? d...z

If you look in front of the comet, you can see faint waves moving toward the comet.
These are tons of matter from a cme. I suggest that the dancing tail is a mechanical reaction to the waves hitting it....

[Rosphere]

As an engineer, when it comes to making a new product I know that nothing is more important than starting off with unwavering design requirements.

1. Replicate Surface Activity & Features: "...a plasma sphere lamp at spencer's gifts that used a peace sign inside it to discharge the plasma and noticed the metal surface was pitting, ...to make cometary plasma ball lamps, ...the visual of a planet-comet electric discharge in a desk lamp would be intriguing to customers and thought provoking to young minds. ...and potentially see the pitting involved."

2. Replicate Orbits: "...like a combo of an automated solar system and plasma ball, ...If we create the highly elliptical orbit with something to discharge or recharge the object in aphelion the idea would be to create some kind of arcing as it approaches perihelion. If we could create a high speed orbit to closer replicate cometary motion, you could get more cycles..."

I think that the first requirement may be achievable, if we can prevent the accumulation of dust buildup on the inside of the glass globe. It would be interesting to see the discharge arcs on a 'palm sized' piece of earth rock that would mimic the photos that we have seen of active comet discharges; greenish blue 'jets.'

The second requirement, scaling down a cometary orbit to a desktop sized model, (if it were even possible,) would render the 'comet' down to a tiny point sized mass zipping around at such high speeds that we would never get to see the surface discharge features.

Which of these two seemingly incompatible design requirements would you like to keep?

[dahlenaz]

What is all that dancing about??? d...z

If you look in front of the comet, you can see faint waves moving toward the comet.
These are tons of matter from a cme. I suggest that the dancing tail is a mechanical reaction to the waves hitting it.... 8-)

I am not quite sure i know what you mean by mechanical reaction. I've made inquiries 'elsewhere' and privately
about the tail regions of planets and the mechanical behavior of matter or an object as it approaches or enters
that area and i was discouraged about relevancy, but that may be something different than what you
have in mind.

We should probably take into consideration the close proximity of 2P/Encke to Mercury's polar region between
the 19th and the 21st. From the cameras perspective it is further away than ISON and i think is is moving away
from the camera so we are seeing its tail through the polar activity of Mercury.. So i am guessing that some
distortion in the matter stream across mercury's pole may also translate into distortion of the comet's tail
movement. Bottom line,, maybe an optical illusion, optical distortion as the matter of the
solar outburst interacts with polar characteristics changing the appearance or position of the comet's
tail.. Isn't that what gravititional lensing is all about? I wonder if there is another viewing angle of that event?

The frame spacing should be noted but that just contributes to jumpiness .

The camera's perspective seems to be flipped as though the orbiter was upside-down..
I'm still looking for specifics, that i can understand!, about the positions of the satellites. d...z

...

[Sparky]

Mechanical or electrical? Look at what is happening..... ....The matter that is moving
toward the comet and tail has the ability to distort the Earth's magnasphere and to wipe away it's atmosphere if it wasn't protected by that magnasphere. That appears to be electromechanical.

The comet has a tail that is made up of ions, dust and electrons, and appears to be conducting in glow mode. The cme, much like river rapids, hits the comet and impinges upon it in an electromechanical way. The same can be seen as the comet is very near the sun. The tail dances as waves of matter hit it. As soon as the comet gets some more distance from the sun, that mass of matter in the solar wind again straightens out the tail, since there are fewer waves; charge separation dispersal of energy, etc....

Electrical, mechanical? pick one or both./....

[dahlenaz]

Electrical, mechanical? pick one or both./.... ;)

I am persuaded of the electrical aspect and am glad to hear about the mechanical
suggestion you make...

And before i say anything else i need to correct the
orientation details.. I must have mis-rhed the CIOC blog. or did I?

http://www.isoncampaign.org/karl/ison-e ... rcury-home
"but on a much larger scale! (ISON is closer to STEREO-A than Encke is"

According to the Stereo site
http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/where.shtml

If i am now looking at this correctly,,,,
Stereo A is now looking back at earth with 2P/Encke in the foreground and
coming towards the camera and it is past Mercury already by the 20th.

So disregard my suggestion about an optical illusion... d...z

...

[Max Photon]

Gosh, this is one of the more honest NASA Astronomy Picture of the Day's that I've seen:

The Unexpected Tails of Asteroid P5

Nothing new... other than the humility.

[seasmith]

StephanR Wrote:

Gives a nice example of the different proposed mechanisms of "mass-loss" and elaborates on them.
It seems as if they just don't have a good model for the electrostatic interaction.
By the way, I'm still not quite sure if perhaps the dust itself could play a role in regulating
of the discharge activity. It must have certain properties that differ from the 'regolith' or 'surface'
of the bodies concerned. Does the dust isolate the surface from interaction or does it enhance its
capacitive function as a whole? Is there a certain threshold between bare surface area and area
covered by dust?

3200 Phaethon
Seeing 3200 Phaethon sprout a tail, even a small one, gives researchers confidence that Phaethon is indeed the source of the Geminids--but a mystery remains: How can such a stubby protuberance produce such a grand meteor shower?

Are NASA now saying that that asteroids create comets, and comets create meteors ??

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... rockcomet/

"Rock comet sprouts a tail"

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... rockcomet/

[Max Photon]

Thanks Seasmith, very interesting indeed! Rock comets ... who would have thunk?

Here's more on 3200 Phaethon:

Wikipedia > 3200 Phaethon

(To entice readers, note that this cometary asteroid approaches closer to the sun than any other named asteroid.)

[seasmith]

MaxP,
Like your website !

∞

[StefanR]

Are NASA now saying that that asteroids create comets, and comets create meteors ??

"A rock comet", says Jewitt. A rock comet is, essentially, an asteroid that comes very close to the sun--so close that solar heating scorches dusty debris right off its rocky surface. This could form a sort of gravelly tail.

"The tail gives incontrovertible evidence that Phaethon ejects dust," says Jewitt.
Jewitt's team believes that the dust is launched by thermal fracturing of the asteroid’s crust. A related process called “desiccation fracturing”--like mud cracks in a dry lake bed--may play a role too.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... rockcomet/

It is an asteroid so it is a dry rock, as asteroids don't behave like comets and comets can only act like that because of
the water and ice and that whole global warming thing that goes on on comets. And because this asteroid is moving close to the sun it has been "baked" many times over. And the fact that it does behave a little bit like comet by brightening and spawning tails at the same time, and this at perihelion, makes it a comet. And because it is a comet, and comets are fluffy snowballs with ice, it is valid to propose for this dust spouting activity a solution based on hydrated soils.
This hydrological imagery can be seen here, as stated in the paper:

The Dust Tail of Asteroid (3200) Phaethon
[....]Furthermore, we see no reason to
assume that mass loss, even at perihelion, should occur in a steady state. It is entirely
possible, for instance, that the perihelion mass loss rate varies stochastically (perhaps by
orders of magnitude) from orbit to orbit, analogous to the way in which steady erosion of
a coastal headland by ocean waves leads to rare but mass-dominant landslides.[...]

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1306.3741v1.pdf

Now I'm sorry to leave you with this, but the BBC has a new documentary with David Attenborough about
the fascinating mating season of sundried bricks and the parental care of boulders for their pebbles.

[viscount aero]

NASA is still wrapped up in thermodynamic and purely mechanical means to explain cometary ejecta--but proposing overly-complicated and non-believable explanations. Quite hilarious but sad