Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by MGmirkin » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:11 am

Time to de-bunkum... Or is that debunk 'em? Well, let's not diddle with semantics!

(The Sun’s magnetic [electric] fountains)
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0804/08040303
A team from the UCL Mullard Space Science Laboratory (MSSL) have found the origin and driver [nope, they found magnetic fields, but failed to trace backward to the driving electric currents] of the huge fountains of hot gas [Plasma!] that spout from the Sun, using the UCL-built instrument on board Hinode, the solar satellite observatory.

[...]

Astronomers have known for decades that the Sun has a very dynamic atmosphere. Huge fountains of hot gas [Plasma! Is there an echo in here?] erupt in the atmosphere, or corona, every few minutes, traveling at tens of thousands of km per hour and reaching great heights.

The team, led by Dr Murray, have used the Hinode spacecraft to find the origin and driver of these fountains - immense magnetic structures [Look again! "Magnetic structures" in plasma cannot exist in absence of driving electric currents! "Frozen-in field lines" is an incorrect physical model.] that thread through the solar atmosphere.

[...]

Increases in pressure at the base of the Sun’s magnetic field cause enormous jets of hot gas [Plasma!] to shoot upwards into the solar atmosphere. Once the pressure ceases, the hot gases [Plasma! Plasma! Plasma! :x] stop soaring into the atmosphere and fall back towards the solar surface. The changes in pressure are caused by rearrangements of the Sun’s magnetic field [Which are caused by what? Ohh, right, changes in the underlying electrical currents!], a continual process that results in looping cycles of increasing and decreasing pressure and, consequentially, intermittent solar fountains.

[...]

Dr Murray added: “The computer experiments demonstrate that when a new section of magnetic field pushes through the solar surface [Okay, so they're seeing expanding "magnetic field lines." But the strength of a magnetic field, thus the behavior of its field lines, is directly correlated to the strength of the underlying electrical current! Maxwell's Wonderful Equations... Hello? NASA? Hinode? Anybody home? HAve we heard of Maxwell? Ampère? Faraday? Langmuir? Tesla? What do they teach in Astronomer School these days?] it generates a continual cycle of fountains [Gosh, a stronger underlying electrical current generating discharges / jets in the sun's plasma environs? Say it ain't so! Who'd have thought it?], but new magnetic fields are constantly emerging across the whole of the solar surface [Meaning? New electric currents are being generated across across the whole of the solar surface to drive the magnetic fields!] and so our results can explain a whole multitude of fountains that have been observed with Hinode.” [Not without acknowledging the underlying role of electric currents, they can't! If they want to have thorough and correct science, anyway...]
(Image & movie of the fountains)
http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/~mjm/NAM08/murray_baker1.jpg
http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/~mjm/NAM08/murray_baker2.mpeg

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by MGmirkin » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:12 am

Next set of de-bunkum-ing... :D

(Polar Crown Prominences)
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008 ... ist1066595
Warning: Material contained in this story may make you wish to become a solar physicist. [Ha ha, no! I prefer not to be lobotomized by my peers... Thanks just the same!]

Japan's Hinode spacecraft, launched in 2006 on a mission to study the sun, is beaming back movies that astonish even seasoned investigators. [Who have apparently never seen or heard of electrical effects in plasma?]

"That was a polar crown prominence recorded by Hinode on Nov. 30, 2006," says Dr. Thomas Berger of Lockheed Martin's Advanced Technology Center in Palo Alto, California. "It is a curved wall of 10,000[deg] plasma [:o They said plasma! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!] about 90,000 km long and 30,000 km tall." [Couldn't be a current sheet could it? Jut one possibility...] A stack of planets three Earths high would barely make it to the top.

Solar astronomers have seen prominences like this before, thousands of them, but never so clearly. The new view is challenging long-held ideas: In the past, researchers thought of prominences as mainly static structures [Why? For the love of Dog, why?], held motionless above the surface of the sun by magnetic force fields. [Electric currents are anything but motionless or static! They're dynamic flows of like charged particles in the same direction at the same time or opposite charges in opposite directions at the same time. Granted, for a current of constant strength and geometry, the magnetic field generated by it may remain more-or-less static. But, the current itself is still a dynamic process.] "Now we know those ideas are too simple. [No kidding! See what happens when you falsely assume that magnetic fields are the only game in town and fail to track back to electric currents, per Maxwell, Ampère, Faraday, etc?] Just watch the movie!" [It's pre-eetty, and colorful!]

Berger lists the surprises:

1. "There are dark tadpole-shaped plumes rising up from the base of the prominence. These have never been seen before and we're not sure what they are."

2. "Narrow streams of plasma at the top of the prominence are constantly falling back to the bottom, much like a waterfall." Mysteriously, the streams plummet faster than ambient magnetic forces seem to allow[!]. [Could this be because they are responding to the presence of electric fields? A voltage drop is the most efficient way to get charged particles a-flowing!]

3. "Finally, within the wall itself, there are swirls and vortices" bearing an eerie resemblance to van Gogh's surreal Starry Night. [Swirls and vortices? C'mon, do you really need more evidence for electric currents? NASA really needs to keep up-to-date on cutting edge research! Plasma experiment recreates astrophysical jets & Plasma Jets on Earth]

The inescapable conclusion: "There's no such thing as a static prominence." [No [expletive deleted] kidding...] Furthermore, he says, "we don't understand how the sun's magnetic field is doing all these things." [Perhaps because "frozen in field lines" in plasma and "magnetic reconnection" are both incorrect paradigms! It's all about the underlying currents... Magnetic field strength depends on electric current strength. Maxwell, Ampere, Faraday and Gauss say they're related.]

[...]

It turns out that polar crown prominences pop up almost every day. They occupy a ring (or "crown") around the sun's poles bracketed approximately by solar latitudes 60o and 70o. Geometrically, the crowns resemble the auroral ovals of Earth. Instead of Northern Lights, however, the sun's ovals are filled with dancing sheets of plasma. [Birkeland's terella whatnow? 1, 2]

Studying polar crown prominences could be a key to forecasting space weather, says Berger. The central sheets [What kind of sheets? Please be more specific! Current sheets? Linens & Things?] form between regions of opposite-polarity magnetic field. That's significant because opposite magnetic fields bumping together tend to explode—a process [some incorrect] physicists call "reconnection." [Magnetic reconnection is DOA. Long live electric currents!] Polar crown prominences are thus poised to erupt and often do, forming the cores of billion-ton coronal mass ejections. "Hinode allows us to watch the process in action."

Astronomers aren't the only ones watching; nuclear physicists are paying attention, too. For decades, physicists and engineers have struggled to contain hot plasma in fusion reactors using magnetic fields. [And yet science seems to be oblivious to the fact that the magnetic fields used in fusion reactors are created using ELECTROmagnets! You can't get the magnetic fields without the electro-!] Watching the sun manipulate plasma via magnetism may teach them some valuable tricks and, eventually, help bring the power of stars down to Earth. [If they'd just get the relationship through their thick skulls between the magnetic fields they see and their source electric currents, they may just have something!]

"These data are leading solar physicists to reexamine theories of prominence dynamics and will certainly lead to new and exciting breakthroughs," believes Berger. [We've all heard that line before! "We swear we'll mend our erroneous ways, and git 'er figgered out!" And yet, nothing changes... I believe it's called paradigm paralysis?]

Answers are in the offing. [Really? Will you guys finally and tacitly acknowledge that electric currents exist and actually do things on the sun and in space?] But first, a few more movies: 1, 2, 3. [Ooh! Something shiny! I'm sold!]
Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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The Suns Particle Accelerator

Post by junglelord » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:43 pm

PICTURE THIS: You're a nuclear engineer with a problem. The plasma in your fusion chamber keeps slipping through the magnetic force field, foiling your efforts to sustain a energy-producing reaction. What do you do? Watch this movie:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008 ... _short.mov

The twisting, swirling, rising and falling thing you just witnessed is a polar crown prominence photographed by Japan's Hinode spacecraft.

It is, essentially, a gigantic sheet of hot plasma exquisitely controlled by solar magnetic force fields.

Hinode's unprecedented high-resolution images of these prominences reveal plasma falls, "van Gogh vortices", and dark tadpole-shaped bubbles--things the sun can do with plasma and magnetic fields, but nuclear engineers can't. Not yet. Further studies of the sun may eventually reveal the the secrets of plasma control. Get the full story and more movies from Science@NASA.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008 ... rcrown.htm

Berger lists the surprises:

1. "There are dark tadpole-shaped plumes rising up from the base of the prominence. These have never been seen before and we're not sure what they are."

2. "Narrow streams of plasma at the top of the prominence are constantly falling back to the bottom, much like a waterfall." Mysteriously, the streams plummet faster than ambient magnetic forces seem to allow.

3. "Finally, within the wall itself, there are swirls and vortices"
Ever hear of the LHC?
You do realize they utilize electric current to propel the two protons or lead ions, not just supercold magnets to guide their path. Why is it that NASA fails to mention electric current with this press release on plasma and charged particles that move faster then magnetic fields account for?

Sounds like that particle accelerator I was talking about. Its not gravity adding to the velocity of the charged particles, even they know that! I predict its current, just like the LHC.
:D

Swirls and vortices are no surprise to me. They are the archtype form from the quantum structure in a electric universe.


The dark tapole plumes are where plasma seperates from arc mode to dark mode while atomic elements seperate due to ion charge and temperature gradients.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by davesmith_au » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:45 pm

Michael wrote:... lobotomized by my peers ...
:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

ROFLSHIJPMP...

No offense of course to the one solar physicist I've had the pleasure of speaking with who still thinks for himself, but as a four word commentary on the general state of much peer-review, that's just priceless.

Cheers, Dave Smith.
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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by Marnee » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:49 pm

Awesome!

"Watching the sun manipulate plasma via magnetism may teach them some valuable tricks and, eventually, help bring the power of stars down to Earth."

Already done. Have they really not heard of the Z Machine? I mean its soooo coool. You'd think science people would be all over that. Harumph.

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Re: The Suns Particle Accelerator

Post by MGmirkin » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:46 am

junglelord wrote:Ever hear of the LHC?
You do realize they utilize electric current to propel the two protons or lead ions, not just supercold magnets to guide their path. Why is it that NASA fails to mention electric current with this press release on plasma and charged particles that move faster then magnetic fields account for?

Sounds like that particle accelerator I was talking about. Its not gravity adding to the velocity of the charged particles, even they know that! I predict its current, just like the LHC. :D
I'd wager, rather, that it's electric fields. Voltage drops are the best way to accelerate charged particles [into a current]! Am I right?

Electric field = electric potential. Electric current = electric potential converted into kinetic motions. Yeah? :geek:

IE, it's one things to have charges separated and a highly attractive force between them. It's another make those charges move and witness the "current."

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by MGmirkin » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:52 am

I think I'll go discuss with the folks over at habitablezone.com about this & see what their response is... There's often some good interesting conversation over there. Hope they'll try to keep their standards up (pants too)! :D

(Polar Crown Prominences Raise Questions About Overly Simplistic "Magnetic" Solar Theories...)
http://habitablezone.com/space/messages/522625.html

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by junglelord » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:17 am

Your very correct Micheal....and it terrible for me to not use proper terminology without a proper perspective of where I am speaking
:oops:

I stand corrected and I admire your regiorus attention to detail. Since I am the one with a degree in electronics and Dave Thompson is always pointing out the problems with terminology that is "slack"< well I am going to claim brain injury on this one....Electric fields and potential are the correct terms I should have used, that produce currents. Sometimes I just take it for granted that certain processes are already given, this leads to poor terminology from certain perspectives. I cannot create a current without a voltage potential. I do see the need to explain each step, as it should not be taken for granted that each and every reader will have the forgone conclusion of what preceeded the current. Your a great teacher, and since I am a teacher, I have been assisted by your approach. I think your very important in my own lessons of how to teach this to others. Cheers.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by MGmirkin » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:55 am

junglelord wrote:I do see the need to explain each step, as it should not be taken for granted that each and every reader will have the forgone conclusion of what preceded the current. Your a great teacher, and since I am a teacher, I have been assisted by your approach. I think you're very important in my own lessons of how to teach this to others. Cheers.
Agreed, on the bit about getting from point A to point C through point B.

While I sometimes feel like I'm leading people by the nose when getting into too many steps and details, your observation is apt that not everyone will intuitively leap from A to C or A to Z without having a grasp of the steps in between.

I suppose I look at it a bit like a chain of evidence or a chain of logic.
If A is true then B is true.
If B is true then C is true.

If the prior two statements are true:
If A is true then C is true.

If the state of B isn't known, or the relation ships between B & A or B & C are not known, then it does not necessarily follow that there is a known/knowable relationship between A & C.

Logic is fun! Sometimes...

Anyway, that chain of knowledge / logic / evidence is the reason that nowadays I tend to step people through things in small increments. I view the learning process a bit like a series of big holes in a path. Call them gaps in understanding. If there are too many gaps in understanding, one can't walk the path, or one will fall into the gaps. ;o]

By filling in the gaps, the path is leveled out and we can navigate from one area to the next, and all the way down the path to the endpoint.

Just a quickie analogy. But I find it's apt.

"Objections" are much the same way. Each one is a potential landmine, waiting to blow a hole in he path. Only by defusing each "objection" is the path cleared to walk. But that doesn't stop someone from running up to you hand handing you a live grenade. ;) Best to be alert and know what to do!

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
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"The sun energy source are MAGNETIC FIELDS"-Abstract

Post by FS3 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:08 pm

Dave! MGmirkin!

I am speechless!- almost...

:o

This Abstract from April 2008 by Dan Bar-Zohar (Open University of Israel)) almost reads like a (badly understood) blueprint of exactly that kind of Electric Universe, we are all writing about here.

But no mentioning of any resources!

Read and wonder...

FS3

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by junglelord » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:30 pm

They mixed both models into a new theory that has magnetic induction causing a nuclear furnace at the center.
Kinda neat actually that they worked the superconductor principle into it, I like that. I have not gotten to the part of the corona temperature yet.

I know it is believed that the surface of the sun may be the point of electric fusion in the EU model. I often think the center of the sun would also. I think a marriage is possible of both models in some ways, but one must be careful when doing so. The article does talk like black holes and neutron stars are real, things the EU totally disagrees with.
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by junglelord » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:19 pm

I like the model for one reason. I am not saying its perfect, but its a great step towards getting people to see things in a new light.
:D
I don't buy his theory of black holes and neutron stars that power the galactic center. I do not accept his thought that intersteller space does not have electric current. He does believe the sun is a electric current device powered by magnetic induction. Thats cool. He does explain the homopoloar motor and the galactic disc. He also has some ideas on the creation of matter and ejection of galaxies. He fails to address the corona which would only increase his paper. He believes redshift is correct as presented. Its a good attempt but only half way home in some respects. Although I was entertained to see a superconductor/magnet idea of the sun, I am not sure its valid. A paper released today spoke of a new material that married superconductors with magnetic fields. I posted it in the superconductor thread. I think that some aspects of the EU would be a superconductor level. This may be a correct assumption on his part.
Many facts that will be presented here show that the source of the sun heat is changing magnetic fields or induction. The magnetic fields are coming from the galactic center; they propagate through the galactic disk and heat all the stars in the disk. The changing magnetic fields create by induction electric currents in the sun plasma. The electric currents heat the sun plasma and make the sun shine. Fusion of hydrogen in the sun is a by product of the heat created by the magnetic fields. At the sun core the immense heat created by the induction currents increase the particle speed and kinetic energy. As the particles collide their high kinetic energy is converted to mass by creating new particles according to Einstein equation E=MC2. The sun is not converting mass into energy but converting energy into mass.

Many of the observed phenomena on the sun are magnetic so it is reasonable to think that the sun is heated by magnetic induction.

This stars mass creation can explain where all the mass in the universe came from and why the universe is expanding and accelerating. It also can explain how the heavy elements are created in the universe. It is believed that many heavy elements are created in supernovae; this is because the fusion of heavy elements consumes energy and not produces energy as hydrogen does. Since the energy of the stars is coming from magnetic fields and not from fusion then the nucleosynthesis of heavy elements occur in red giants.

If the stars produce mass and energy then we can say that the galaxies produce mass and energy. The galaxies are the universe machines to create mass and energy.

If the sun is heated from magnetic fields from the center of the galaxy, where the energy of the galaxy is coming from? The magnetic fields create mass in the stars, and when this mass is ejected into space as solar wind, it starts to free fall to the center of the galaxy. The gravitational potential energy of the free falling dust and gas is collected by accretion disks of black holes at the galactic center. This gravitational potential energy is much higher then the energy used to create the mass. The accretion disks combined with the dynamo effect create the magnetic fields at the galactic center that produce more mass at the stars, and so forth.

If a galaxy is getting bigger and heavier all the time at some point it will spawn a new galaxy. The continuous addition of mass to the galaxy increases the mass of the spiral arms of the galaxy, and increase the arm length and its distance from the galactic center. The stellar wind ejected by the stars at the remote arm begin to collect locally at the arm itself until the arm is so heavy it detach from the main galaxy and became a satellite galaxy. Many of the pictures taken of colliding galaxies or interacting galaxies are actually instances of one galaxy spawning another. The spawning of new galaxies, lead to the expansion and acceleration of the universe.

http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=65
If you only knew the magnificence of the 3, 6 and 9, then you would have a key to the universe.
— Nikola Tesla
Casting Out the Nines from PHI into Indigs reveals the Cosmic Harmonic Code.
— Junglelord.
Knowledge is Structured in Consciouness. Structure and Function Cannot Be Seperated.
— Junglelord

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by MGmirkin » Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:17 pm

Someone should probably point him to Birkeland's work, Alfvén's and Juergens' as well...

~Michael
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by FS3 » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:30 pm

Hi,

I posted this for a certain reason...
MGmirkin wrote:Someone should probably point him to Birkeland's work, Alfvén's and Juergens' as well...

~Michael
It almost reads like he knows about those works. If you compare this with his other work (look for the neutrino page) it baffled me that he didn´t provide any citations in the magnetic one.

FS3

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Re: Magnetic Fields Doing Cartwheels on the Sun? Oy!

Post by MGmirkin » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:30 am

Almost... But maybe not... If he did, he probably would have approached several of the problems a little differently. ;)

C'est la vie!

~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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