Questioning the Ice Ages

[finno]

* Moraines and striations are surely caused largely by glaciers. These have been observed. How can you question what's plainly observed? Where moraines are missing, their absence may be explained by great floods. Everything doesn't have to have the same cause. Glaciers exist. Floods exist. Gravity exists. Not everything needs to be explained by electric forces.

Ofcourse theres lot of moraine what been created glacial. I see that every spring when ice push stones to sea beach. Theres lot of stones what are granite, gneiss or every like stones. Brown stone, red stone, greys stone etc. and ofcourse all kind organic stuff. That is normal view.

But that moraine what they said to resulting at ice age glacier are big mystery. Because all stones are same varietes of stone whats impossible if flood or ice been pushed stones from somewhere. How flood or ice can take only same stone varieties? What is really amazing, stones are usually same size. Bigger stone is double bigger what smaller. And normally that kind moraines are not in dried-up ravine – that moraines are highest place at hill. I cant imagine how anykind flood or glacier can push them up against all logic?
Here is one that kind morainefield what iam been studied myself, and believe me when I say, I know what I talking about.
http://www.google.fi/search?um=1&hl=fi& ... -fkYDzopvc

Only explanation is, that moraines been generated on side. Perhaps there is been rock mountain what is victim to resonance or something that kind force what collapsed it? Its been trembeld pieces? Of course that doesn’t need nothing electrical – normal eartquake can do that I think. I am not sure, today that not happen even there where are strong earthquakes – I can be also at wrong.

what is thread of my story? Its that, when we talk about pleistocene time, are we ice age or catastrophe fans, there is not nothing simple when we try understand geological evidence from pleistocene age. all that traces (potholes, moraines up hill etc) are all somelike bizarre.
Electrical forces are now perhaps best explanation but its yet only rising sun.

[GaryN]

Not everything needs to be explained by electric forces.

Blasphemy! Off with his head!
I can only speak for my own area of investigation Lloyd, but it is quickly becoming obvious that only electrical and plasma forces could have caused the observed features around here, and that water and glaciers could not produce them, they couldn't cut it, quite literally. I believe the evidence I am collecting is indisputable proof of short duration, highly energetic events, not thousands or millions of years of slow grind with the occasional great flood.
Hopefully before the weather changes, I will be examining features on a 1200 acre private site that I found some old trail maps for, and just happen to know the caretaker of the property. The trails are long overgrown, the maps are from the mid 1930s, but indicate potholes, canyons, and a cirque lake. Also, I am working on getting a multidisciplinary team of a dozen or so people together to try and do as scientific an examination as possible on these features, should be a very interesting, and no doubt contentious investigation.
@finno

Here is one that kind morainefield what iam been studied myself

Very interesting indeed, I was not aware of such phenomena. It does fit with one of my findings of very consistent sized, but much smaller rock chips that are still buried in the fine red dust around an outcrop that looks like it has suffered millions of 'pecks' from something. The fact that these chips are still in the same area shows they were not washed away by water or swept away by glaciers. I attribute this to a pulsed electric field of a specific frequency shattering the rock surface of the outcrop. Someone might say thousands of years of weathering, but other outcrops in the area are not affected. Why?

Electrical forces are now perhaps best explanation but its yet only rising sun.

Or flaring Sun? I see Robert Schoch believes in Solar outburst and plasma interactions, though he also believes in the miles high glaciers. He'll come around.

Plasma hitting the surface of Earth could heat and fuse rock, incinerate flammable materials, melt ice caps, vaporize shallow bodies of water creating an extended deluge of rain, and send the climate into a warming spell.

http://www.robertschoch.com/plasma.html

[Lloyd]

Field Studies
* Gary, if you're going to have a team do field studies, you should post info on it on the Let's Do EU Research thread at http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... 856#p69856, if you would. Dennis Cox was trying to get folks to do similar studies in the SW early last year. It's still something worth doing, I'd say. His studies may well encompass the same time period as yours, since they involve surface studies. He talked about Rick Firestone's and others' recent findings of an airburst that caused a lot of craters and melting and flowing of rock in various places and the fall of black carbon material, as I recall. DZ has been discussing the Meteor Crater impact, which seems to be also from the same time period, when Hopi Lake possibly still held water in NE Arizona.
* Web and Kim are both good geologists and could likely answer a lot of questions.

[GaryN]

I think my field research is all but done Lloyd, as far as finding examples of where the supposed glacier shaped local landform is concerned. I just spent a couple of afternoons at another very interesting location, but how geologists could say "glaciers" with a straight face is beyond me. I'll continue with more field research as long as the weather holds, as most of what I am doing now involves trying to get down the dried out or very low water level creeks and canyons. More examples is better I suppose, but really, just the potholes should cast great shadows of doubt on the glaciation model, but it is all waved off with the "time, lots of time" mantra.
The apparent cause according to my model now, is the surface and near surface electrical/plasma flows between the higher and lower elevations due to a very high electric field gradient. As the surface is eroded, the current channels will become more concentrated, leading to deeper erosion, and even more concentrated flows. Vortices/tornadoes would be expected, as they are in waterways, and the potholes formed by plasma and not water, but in a very short period, eliminating the need for the swirling pebbles and "lots of time" again. That there is water in these channels is secondary to their formation, and it is obvious that the millions of rocks and boulders at the very top of the last canyon I visited have never moved, as there are large blocks from the cliffs above almost completely blocking the water course in places, but there is no accumulation of rocks behind the blockage. If glaciers ever came down that canyon, why is all that debris still there?
And perhaps the kicker is the identification of 2 locations where the canyons go up a hill, cut through the top, and go down the other side. Two creeks for the price of one. I haven't reached those locations yet, and as I have been pushing my luck with solo travel to some of these very rugged and remote (and thick with cougars and bears!) locations, I'll wait till I find a hiking buddy before I try. The evidence, IMO, is all there, just waiting for the correct interpretation.

[webolife]

Hey Gary,
I'd love to go hiking with you! Wouldn't that make for some fascinating trail talk
Are you looking at the outback of BC? or eastern Washington? or...
Unfortunately the new school year is starting up and I'm out of opportunities until next summer

[finno]

Vortices/tornadoes would be expected, as they are in waterways, and the potholes formed by plasma and not water, but in a very short period, eliminating the need for the swirling pebbles and "lots of time" again

Perhaps you can tell me little bit more from Carolina bays if you know anything? I am never seen that hole-type in my life, because mostly are in America. How Carolina bays different from pot holes? I founded one theory what guess, they can be done `dust devils´ - what born electrical forces, if I understanded Wallace Thornhill words right?

[GaryN]

Hi Finno,
You can find previous discussions on Thunderbolts by doing a site search using Google, i.e.

"Carolina bays" site:http://thunderbolts.info/

Yes, they are interesting, but not similar to potholes in their formation, IMO. They look to me like giant ice or slush ball impacts because of their elliptical shapes, and all seem to have a similar source direction. Lightning and hailstones go together often, maybe these were just on a bigger scale.
And there are also Bays in the Midwest and Alaska. Their alignments are interesting.
http://cosmictusk.com/perigee-zero-caro ... e-midwest/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1951PA.....59..199K

@webo

Are you looking at the outback of BC? or eastern Washington? or...

I think Southern Vancouver Island should keep me busy the rest of my life, there are so many unanswered questions. I believe this region contains examples of many different processes that then scale up to the rest of BC, and Washington, and globally. I'm taking a closer look now at Ayum Creek, supposedly one of two smaller glacial valleys emptying into the Sooke Basin, which became 'frustrated' and carved out the Sooke basin, which is technically a cirque. Glinz lake is also a cirque, but very interestingly, there are two outlets to the lake, and the main flow is out of the side exit, and not the bottom outlet. The YMCA has a location called Camp Thunderbird which I'd love to be able to one day (maybe rename it Camp Thunderbolt for a week?) use as the base location for a workshop to study the local area geology. By itself it holds many answers I think, but in combination with other areas within a "day outing" range, such as the Potholes park and East Sooke, there are geological mysteries galore.
I'm working on putting together a more accurate picture of the Ayum creek system, as none of the maps I have been able to view, from the camps maintenance man, are very accurate. I'll put up some images and comments on my Picassa page when I have time.
Camp Thunderbird web page.
http://www.victoriay.com/campthunderbird/
But sure, we should get together for a hike one day, cool!

[GaryN]

Looking up 'lakes with 2 outlets' I see there is a Lake Confusion in the Sierra National Forest, which is one of many cirque lakes in the region. Good name, as confusion is what I experience trying to figure out, from a mechanical perspective, just how that can come about through glaciation. I'm sure there are more examples, but just looking at the scale of what has occured in areas like the Sierras makes me shake my head in disbelief, my little part of the world seem almost insignificant by comparison. But perhaps the sheer scale of areas like the Sierras takes ones attention away from the smaller details, which, IMO, is where the answers to the puzzle of the formation of these features are to be found. The question then arises as to the age of the formations. Around my area, I'd say not more than that 13,000 year figure, but could the Sierras be from much earlier events?
Some images of Confusion and other lakes in the area.
http://mapcarta.com/23024040

[webolife]

Yes, one very mysterious aspect of the mechanics of an "Ice Age" is how and why centers of glaciation formed where and as they did. That's a cirque smack dab on the top of a mountain range, while not far away in Yosemite whole valleys were apparently carved out by continental glaciers... much to ponder about what kinds of forces are involved in dropping the entire world's temperature by 6 degrees, and then 2 km or more of snowfall. over up to a third of the earth's surface... what kind of astronomical visitation or terrestrial process of climate change might have operated over millions of years [standard modeling] but then disappeared only a few thousand of years ago without a trace, leaving us wagging our heads and tongues in wonderment? I have no trouble thinkin of the causation as a catastrophic visitation and/or eruption, causing sudden disaster, then leaving or ending just as suddenly, leaving us wagging our heads in tongues in wonderment...

[Lloyd]

Gary said: [There are] 2 locations where the canyons go up a hill, cut through the top, and go down the other side

* That sounds like a place in Australia or wherever, where a TPOD mentioned something like 5 valleys coming together at the top of peak and cutting through it. The suggestion, as always was that they were carved electrically, which sounds the most reasonable to me offhand.
* It doesn't seem reasonable to me to try to attribute every feature to one cause. Glaciation surely caused many of the features in temperate zones. A global flood caused many features worldwide. Meteoric or cometary airbursts and impacts likely caused many. Horizontal compression from tectonic forces, i.e. plates sliding over lower plates or formations, seems likely to have folded up strata to form many mountains. Vulcanism and earthquakes caused many features. Wind and rain had effects too. Saturn flares seem to be the main source of rock strata and ultimately soil, water, petroleum etc. Most of the events would have involved several forces each, probably usually including gravitational, frictional, electrical, chemical and maybe others.

[finno]

Horizontal compression from tectonic forces, i.e. plates sliding over lower plates or formations, seems likely to have folded up strata to form many mountains.

That make sense.

We been in here thinking, all Scandinavian plate has been torn loose, when scandinavian mountain are born. I don’t know are you ever been thinking, how that fjord where Oslo is, are perfectly same form with Danmark? Danmark and Oslo fjord are like lock and key.

But I can give better. When me and my amateur friends thinked rivers what fall waters to Gulf of Bothnia both side Sweden and Finland, we found they are been same rivers long time ago. River ends same location both side Gulf of Bothnia (like Thames and Rhein are been once one river).

Actually that river channels continue under sea over 80 meters deep. That channels are there today. Okay, now comes little bit problem. That same area where rebound is strongest. Ice age theory says, theres been over 2 km thick ice core what is been pressed to crust down. But if does, how can channels been still in sight?
we know with certainty rivers have existed before the depressions. Ice thick are not grind to destroy that what is amazing, if we same time believe, icethick are been crushing everything – even rocks.
That underwater riverchannels are for me one proof there is no been anykind icethick at all.

When we watch again scandinavia at fresh eyes, we can see how well Danmark sit to Norway, Southern Sweden to Baltic coast have same form and both side rivers Gulf of Bothnia fit together we can make summary all that; Norway and Sweden are been torn from Scandinavian area and moved to west and north. I know how This revolutionary this approach is, but we all try only to understand…

[moses]

When we watch again scandinavia at fresh eyes, we can see how well Danmark sit to Norway, Southern Sweden to Baltic coast have same form and both side rivers Gulf of Bothnia fit together we can make summary all that; Norway and Sweden are been torn from Scandinavian area and moved to west and north. I know how This revolutionary this approach is, but we all try only to understand…
finno
This idea fits with my theory that the Americas were retarded in their rotation, so that the Andes and the Rockies were formed from the Pacific ocean pushing into the Americas. On the other side of the Americas there was stretching of the Atlantic Ocean so that Atlantis sunk, as well as stess on the West of Europe. So Norway and Sweden being torn from the Scandanavian area fits perfectly.
Mo

[GaryN]

Lloyd wrote:

Horizontal compression from tectonic forces, i.e. plates sliding over lower plates or formations, seems likely to have folded up strata to form many mountains.

@finno

That make sense.

Well, not to me it doesn't! The sliding plates don't exist, according to Paul D. Lowman, and I think he knew more than anyone about the structure of the planets and moons.

Plate tectonic theory is called upon to explain, directly
or indirectly, almost all aspects of terrestrial geology above the level
of the crystal lattice. Even metamorphic petrology, in particular the
new field of ultra-high pressure metamorphism, invokes phenomena
such as continental collision to explain how rocks recrystallized 150
kilometers down are brought to the surface.
I think this is a mistake. We now know, from space exploration,
that bodies essentially similar to the Earth in composition and struc-
ture have developed differentiated crusts, mountain belts, rift valleys,
and volcanos without plate tectonics, in fact without plates.
Furthermore, we now know, thanks partly to remote sensing from
space, that the Earth’s crust can not realistically be considered a
mosaic of 12 discrete rigid plates. For these and other reasons, I dis-
agree with certain aspects of plate tectonic theory, as will be
explained in the text.

As for the Baltic, the Gulfs of Bothnia and Finland, and also the White Sea, I believe they were all from removal by much larger scale plasma/electric forces than we have previously believed possible. We should, I think, be looking at sputtering, ion etching, etc, with solar outbursts as the primary cause, of the building up, shaping and the removal of the Earths surface. Staggeringly large, short term events, no millions or billions of years of slow change.

[GaryN]

Noise reduction necessary for more accurate study of Earth's plate movements

Dr Iaffaldano's research focused on the detailed records of plate motions across the mid-oceanic ridges in the South Pacific, Indian and Atlantic Oceans. After accounting for data noise – the portion of data that was unrelated to Earth's plate motions – he found that true changes in plate motions occur on timescales no shorter than five million years. "A major discovery of the study is that, upon noise reduction, true changes in plate motions occur on timescales no shorter than a few million years. This yields simpler movement patterns and more plausible dynamics," he said. "We showed that noise is in fact a significant bias to our understanding of the forces shaping Earth's surface, particularly as more and more measurements of plate motions are made available. "This does not mean that these measurements are wrong, but we need to reduce noise as much as possible before making any geophysical conclusions.

http://phys.org/news/2012-09-noise-redu ... e.html#jCp

[seasmith]

Current [≠] movement can be tracked directly by means of ground-based or space-based geodetic measurements; geodesy is the science of the size and shape of the Earth. Ground-based measurements are taken with conventional but very precise ground-surveying techniques, using laser-electronic instruments. However, because plate motions are global in scale, they are best measured by satellite-based methods. The late 1970s witnessed the rapid growth of space geodesy, a term applied to space-based techniques for taking precise, repeated measurements of carefully chosen points on the Earth's surface separated by hundreds to thousands of kilometers. The three most commonly used space-geodetic techniques -- very long baseline interferometry (VLBI), satellite laser ranging (SLR), and the Global Positioning System (GPS) -- are based on technologies developed for military and aerospace research, notably radio astronomy and satellite tracking.

Among the three techniques, to date the GPS has been the most useful for studying the Earth's crustal movements. Twenty-one satellites are currently in orbit 20,000 km above the Earth as part of the NavStar system of the U.S. Department of Defense. These satellites continuously transmit radio signals back to Earth. To determine its precise position on Earth (longitude, latitude, elevation), each GPS ground site must simultaneously receive signals from at least four satellites, recording the exact time and location of each satellite when its signal was received. By repeatedly measuring distances between specific points, geologists can determine if there has been active movement along faults or between plates. The separations between GPS sites are already being measured regularly around the Pacific basin. By monitoring the interaction between the Pacific Plate and the surrounding, largely continental plates, scientists hope to learn more about the events building up to earthquakes and volcanic eruptions in the circum-Pacific Ring of Fire. Space-geodetic data have already confirmed that the rates and direction of plate movement, averaged over several years, compare well with rates and direction of plate movement averaged over [xxx]years.

The consequences of [earth crust] movement are easy to see around Krafla Volcano, in the northeastern part of Iceland. Here, existing ground cracks have widened and new ones appear every few months. From 1975 to 1984, numerous episodes of rifting (surface cracking) took place along the Krafla fissure zone. Some of these rifting events were accompanied by volcanic activity; the ground would gradually rise 1-2 m before abruptly dropping, signalling an impending eruption. Between 1975 and 1984, the displacements caused by rifting totalled about 7 m.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/understanding.html