Questioning the Ice Ages

[webolife]

Well, Lloyd, there are potholes, and then there are potholes...
I don't particularly mind the captioned explanation for those Indian potholes, EXCEPT for the time frame - -
They are are trying to get us to believe that pebbles were swirling over thousands of years in this basalt which presumably must have been solid before the boring began. But I protest that the basalt was relatively soft at the time of the flowing water; so cavitating vortices, with or without pebbles, could have shaped these holes in a much shorter time.

[finno]

Yeah. Thanx for Lloyd at links what opened me all new world I try study what electric winds are

when we waiting that, we can watch more problems from potholes. This camed down from sky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Willa ... e_AMNH.jpg

[GaryN]

Webo, with the potholes in India, I'd have to ask why they are so localised? Is the the property of the basalt in that particular area, the water speed, or what?
Kettles:

How they are formed:

As the front of the glacier retreats it sometimes leaves behind huge blocks of ice which becomes surrounded by sediments carried by glacial melt water streams. As the ice block melts, a depression forms called a kettle. If the bottom of the kettle is filled with fine-grained sediment or the groundwater table intersects the bottom of the kettle, the kettle may have standing water in it and it becomes a kettle lake or kettle pond.

The ice ball lasts long enough to be surrounded my sediment in the meltwater. Doesn't sound plausible to me. And I can find no information on any such process occuring now. It must have been a long time ago, but the kettles still look very well defined, little erosion of the rims.
http://www.geo.sunysb.edu/esp/Science_W ... /index.htm
More potholes.

Bigger:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/484 ... c1f5_b.jpg

"Plunging and swirling water of a river drills holes in the rock. Pot-holes are also drilled by the streams which drop through wells from the top to the bottom of a glacier. Falling hundreds of fee, the streams acquire great force and are able to excavate pits of astonishing size. At Cohoes, N.Y. are several which measure from 10 to 30 feet in diameter, and these held ponds and swamps after the glacier which made them had disappeared..."

My credulity is maxed out now. IMO, the cracking of the surface in these instances is a sign of a strong electric field at the surface.
Some nice images from the Antarctic:
http://www.amusingplanet.com/2012/06/mc ... ctica.html
Some rock is sculpted, most isn't. Why?
I cant find any computer simulations for any of these processes. One chap is working on some, but notthing available to the public. An E-mail to him is in order.
Glaciology and Modelling

Once the model has been created it can be tested by simulating a known situation and comparing the simulation with reality, making sure that the comparison is against data that have not been used to create the model in the first place!

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/antarctic/res ... -modelling
@finno

This camed down from sky.

I have wondered before about the examination of meteors, as it would seem to me that the composition of what lands on Earth is not the same as when it entered our ionosphere/atmosphere. Strong electrical fields, current and temperature may transform or even transmute some elements to those that did not exist originally. Just a thought.

[seasmith]

Gary,

That iceball / ' kettle' scenario just sounds goofy

Do you have the link for the "kettles" in India photo, for to look at the surrounding terrain ?

thanks
s

potholes sinkholes kettles craters blisters pieholes sheesh !

[GaryN]

Perhaps I'll have to reconsider the Snowball Earth model, as looking at west central, and even further south in India, I now see that in some places it looks very similar to northern areas that we associate with glaciation. Kundi might be as good a place as any to start in order to try and get to the bottom of these mysterious landforms.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=kundi&hl=e ... a&t=p&z=11

[finno]

Anyway that electric wind is very very intresting theory. it explain better all that curved lines
http://www.flickr.com/photos/58306119@N07/6413485025/

[webolife]

Well, these past few posts certain highlight the fact that many different factors can produce holes in rocks.
Look for evidence of streamlining or conchoidal sculpting to indicate fluid mechanisms [eg. streams, or sand carried by wind], observe sidewalls and shape of pothole floor to discover what more explosive mechanisms may/must have been involved. Those water filled Indian potholes in Gary's recent posted image are not of the same character as the potholes I study in eastern Washington basalt, and look somewhat like impact/discharge craters [they are remarkably circular], but an equally viable mechanism is that they are eruptive/volcanic features, from reservoirs of hot gases beneath blasting through the surface [consistent with the clustering of these particular potholes...]. It is a mistake IMHO to attribute all holes, all astroblemes, all striations, or all spirals, or all hexagons, or all ________________[fill in] to any one pet mechanism... incl. me, my "pet" is catastrophe vs. gradualism.

I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a mugwump.

[seasmith]

re: Kundi western India 'sinkholes'

just some background geo-
Kundi is right along the great western escarpment of India, called The Ghats, and appears to be near the interface of the northern Deccan Basalts and the southerly Krishna Basin.

The initial rift shoulder generated by the rifting away of the Madagascar and Seychelles plates has long been eroded (Gunnell et al. 2003), and the current Western Ghats likely represent a residual escarpment that bears only distant relation to the initial rift-flank scarp either in terms of relief magnitude or geographic position. However, this escarpment is dynamic, and persists despite erosion relentlessly fraying the plateau edge. A key engine to escarpment persistence appears to be the monsoon climate since ca. 15 Ma, and (given the presence and antiquity of bauxites capping the Deccan basalts) its equally humid antecedents since 60 Ma. The monsoon provides a plentiful supply of runoff, but more fundamental, as shown here, is the interplay between the drainage and geologic structure.

http://geology.wlu.edu/harbor/pubs/harb ... cIndia.pdf

Therefore, unless there is an alternative explanation, it is reasonable to suggest that a vast period of tectonic stability is indicated by the Upland valleys.
One of the alternative explanations is that phreatic processes, rather than fluvial processes, have played an important role in the formation of the DBP valleys. Due to the nearly horizon- tal nature of the lava flows, the lava pile in the DBP displays a layer-cake structure (Gun- nell 2001). In such settings, groundwater sapping is recognized as one of the effective geomorphic processes in the recession of valley-walls. Such sap- ping valleys exhibit very distinct valley planforms. Sapping valleys are invariably steepwalled and sin- uous with a few short tributaries. The valleys are amphitheater-headed and hanging tributary val- leys are common (Howard 1995; Lamb et al 2007). Such forms along with little dissection upstream have long been associated with groundwater sap- ping or seepage erosion (Lamb et al 2008).

http://www.ias.ac.in/jess/dec2008/jess57.pdf

The appearance rate of the sinkholes has risen dramatically since 1997, totaling over 1500 along the western coast.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-TI55u ... es&f=false


I was originally thinking 'blisters', along the line of webolife's "eruptive/volcanic" scenario; but come to think about it, we have many very circular shaped sinkholes here in FL.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aliengrove/5250216461/

[GaryN]

@webo

catastrophe vs. gradualism

That's the $64,000 question isn't it? From what I see in my area, it is catastrophe, the mechanisms and timelines put forward by geologists don't make sense to me.
The document linked to by seasmith has some interesting info. I'd been wondering, with simulations, how they determine the starting landform, as that would have to be correct for the rest of the model to work. They assume a flat landscape raised up by continental lift. Then somewhere on that flat landscape, the first little crack or crevis or slight depression becomes the focus of erosion by water or glacier, and given enough time it cuts a deep V shaped trench. They then use a rate of erosion for the particular type of rock that results in the very long timelines we are presented with. Conditions must have remained constant over millions of years for their models to work, and of course it is easy for them to say that this is what must have happened, because they will not ever consider catastrophe on the scales required for alternative models. And certainly not electrical and plasma catastrophe, that's woo-woo land.

A couple of recent related items:

Researchers link Martian surface "oddities" with subsurface water and impact craters

Investigating extremely detailed images of Mars produced by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera – the largest ever carried on a deep space mission – researchers from Western University have discovered further evidence linking subsurface volatiles, such as water or ice, to previously recognized (but thought to be rare) pits, which commonly arise on the floors of Martian impact craters.

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-link-marti ... rface.html

The melted appearance of these features indicates to me a heating from above, not below, and not from an impact. In the document seasmith links to, they also invoke subsurface water and ice to explain many features, and no doubt some features, particularly where there is permafrost, slumping and landslides do occur, but in places where similar looking features are seen in solid rock, how does subsurface water flow explain them?

Hidden Rift Valley Discovered Beneath West Antarctica Reveals New Insight Into Ice Loss

Scientists have discovered a one mile deep rift valley hidden beneath the ice in West Antarctica, which they believe is contributing to ice loss from this part of the continent.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 132208.htm

Equivalent to the Grand Canyon in scale, and I'll bet if we could see the shape in detail it would look very much like the GC, scalloped, sharp edges, dendritic ridges, deep V cross sections. The ice and snow is sitting in an electrically excavated canyon, I do believe.

[GaryN]

Some good images from Norway.
http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/jettegryte/Interesting

So what comes to mind here is that the objects like the Kannesteinen rock, composed of Eclogite, a hard, dense metamorphic rock, must have been worn away very quickly, if the geological time lines we are given, are correct, as the sea level just a few thousand years ago was 400 feet lower. How long then has the sea level been high enough to have worn the rock?

[webolife]

Kannesteinen Rock is apparently made of gneiss, which although being metamorphic, is not very resistant due to it's relatively large [like granite] crystals. Differential heating of the minerals, along with water/ice action [like plucking], could/will easily reduce this rock in decades to an insignificant pile of rubble. Most of this weathering and erosion will happen during winter storms, when the waves and wind generally do greatest damage to shoreline features. Some of the articles about it mention potholes, which may be how you found this reference; so cavitation by breakers is likely the mechanism for such seaside formations. They also mention thousands of years of action, but I go on record with the word "decades".

[Lloyd]

* Web, are you predicting that that balanced rock will fall within decades?

[webolife]

Yes, unless it is artificially reinforced.

[SirWilhelm]

I recommend this book on the subject: http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/earth/

[webolife]

Thank you SirWilhelm for that link to the Allan-DeBlair book.
The abstract seems to follow quite closely to the outline of the Catastrophic earth History class I have taught in the past. I'll be interested to get more details about/from it.