Action at a Distance = Fiction

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Locked
saul
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 2:06 am

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by saul » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:38 pm

sjw40364 wrote:And if the aether is a dielectric and the only movement required to transfer energy over vast distances is a slight shift of axis to create polarization? Dielectrics transfer and store energy from polarization, not from particulate transfer or movement. IMO the only way to explain why the force of gravity seems to act instantaneous. There is no particulate movement required, only a slight shift of axis to create polarization. Almost all forms of light and EM radiation we receive is polarized.
I believe this paper is relevant, also [flag] agrees with Jack's post earlier in this thread :

S. Carlip, "Aberration and the Speed of Gravity," Phys. Lett. A267 (2000) 81–87, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909087.

As Carlip points out in discussions on this topic, we have consistency with theory that the speed of gravity operates at the speed of light. However this does not constitute a real measurement which remains completely impractical.

What do you mean that dielectrics store energy from polarization?

sjw40364
Guest

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:29 pm

saul wrote:
sjw40364 wrote:And if the aether is a dielectric and the only movement required to transfer energy over vast distances is a slight shift of axis to create polarization? Dielectrics transfer and store energy from polarization, not from particulate transfer or movement. IMO the only way to explain why the force of gravity seems to act instantaneous. There is no particulate movement required, only a slight shift of axis to create polarization. Almost all forms of light and EM radiation we receive is polarized.
I believe this paper is relevant, also [flag] agrees with Jack's post earlier in this thread :

S. Carlip, "Aberration and the Speed of Gravity," Phys. Lett. A267 (2000) 81–87, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909087.

As Carlip points out in discussions on this topic, we have consistency with theory that the speed of gravity operates at the speed of light. However this does not constitute a real measurement which remains completely impractical.

What do you mean that dielectrics store energy from polarization?
I tend to think S. Carlip is wrong and agree with T. V. Flanders.
http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/gravi ... _limit.asp (see Sect 7).
Not impractical, they just don't want to know what it really is. Newton's gravitational force acts instantly. GR reduces to Newtonian gravity in the weak field. I agree with Flanders, instantaneous is impossible, so it must be orders of magnitude larger than c, but certainly not the instantaneous (with no aberration) that both Newtonian and GR ascribe to. So if it actually travels at the speed of c, and light has an abberation of 8 minutes from Sun to Earth, Why does the force of gravity point to where the Sun is now, not in 8 minutes as it does with light? Why leave that starting retarded position out of the math? We do not do that when we calculate any other body motion, including light. Gravity is the only force abberation is not calculated for.

I'll be back later with the polarization and energy, and how that ties in to gravity. Tired of typing :)

Aardwolf
Posts: 1330
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:56 am

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Aardwolf » Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:18 pm

saul wrote:
sjw40364 wrote:And if the aether is a dielectric and the only movement required to transfer energy over vast distances is a slight shift of axis to create polarization? Dielectrics transfer and store energy from polarization, not from particulate transfer or movement. IMO the only way to explain why the force of gravity seems to act instantaneous. There is no particulate movement required, only a slight shift of axis to create polarization. Almost all forms of light and EM radiation we receive is polarized.
I believe this paper is relevant, also [flag] agrees with Jack's post earlier in this thread :

S. Carlip, "Aberration and the Speed of Gravity," Phys. Lett. A267 (2000) 81–87, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909087.

As Carlip points out in discussions on this topic, we have consistency with theory that the speed of gravity operates at the speed of light. However this does not constitute a real measurement which remains completely impractical.

What do you mean that dielectrics store energy from polarization?
Carlip states the following in his paper;
Finally, let us return to the question asked in Ref. [1]: what do experiments say about
the speed of gravity? The answer, unfortunately, is that so far they say fairly little. In the
absence of direct measurements of propagation speed, observations must be filtered through
theory, and different theoretical assumptions lead to different deductions. In particular,
while the observed absence of aberration is consistent with instantaneous propagation (with
an extra interaction somehow added on to explain the gravitational radiation reaction), it is
also consistent with the speed-of-light propagation predicted by general relativity.
This paper does not in any way refute instantaneous propagation, it just says GR is compatable with observations. However, for these observations to be compatable with GR, it requires that orbiting bodies are able to extrapolate (predict) the future position of other bodies affecting its orbit now and where they will be in the future. It requires that inanimate objects are able to solve elaborate and complex n-body problems to avoid orbital chaos. Problems that our best and fastest super-computers are unable to do with any long term accuracy.

sjw40364
Guest

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:01 pm

Aardwolf wrote:
saul wrote:
sjw40364 wrote:And if the aether is a dielectric and the only movement required to transfer energy over vast distances is a slight shift of axis to create polarization? Dielectrics transfer and store energy from polarization, not from particulate transfer or movement. IMO the only way to explain why the force of gravity seems to act instantaneous. There is no particulate movement required, only a slight shift of axis to create polarization. Almost all forms of light and EM radiation we receive is polarized.
I believe this paper is relevant, also [flag] agrees with Jack's post earlier in this thread :

S. Carlip, "Aberration and the Speed of Gravity," Phys. Lett. A267 (2000) 81–87, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909087.

As Carlip points out in discussions on this topic, we have consistency with theory that the speed of gravity operates at the speed of light. However this does not constitute a real measurement which remains completely impractical.

What do you mean that dielectrics store energy from polarization?
Carlip states the following in his paper;
Finally, let us return to the question asked in Ref. [1]: what do experiments say about
the speed of gravity? The answer, unfortunately, is that so far they say fairly little. In the
absence of direct measurements of propagation speed, observations must be filtered through
theory, and different theoretical assumptions lead to different deductions. In particular,
while the observed absence of aberration is consistent with instantaneous propagation (with
an extra interaction somehow added on to explain the gravitational radiation reaction), it is
also consistent with the speed-of-light propagation predicted by general relativity.
This paper does not in any way refute instantaneous propagation, it just says GR is compatable with observations. However, for these observations to be compatable with GR, it requires that orbiting bodies are able to extrapolate (predict) the future position of other bodies affecting its orbit now and where they will be in the future. It requires that inanimate objects are able to solve elaborate and complex n-body problems to avoid orbital chaos. Problems that our best and fastest super-computers are unable to do with any long term accuracy.
Yet SR forbids ANYTHING from traveling faster than c, and GR is nothing but a "Generalization" of SR. So for GR to match with SR it too must prohibit anything from traveling above c. So GR is NOT compatible with observations. Or more properly, SR is not compatible with observations, and the GR theory from whence it is derived is therefore not compatible with observations.

Michael V
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:27 am

sjw,
Finally, let us return to the question asked in Ref. [1]: what do experiments say about
the speed of gravity? The answer, unfortunately, is that so far they say fairly little. In the
absence of direct measurements of propagation speed,observations must be filtered through
theory, and different theoretical assumptions lead to different deductions
. In particular,
while the observed absence of aberration is consistent with instantaneous propagation (with
an extra interaction somehow added
on to explain the gravitational radiation reaction), it is
also consistent with the speed-of-light propagation predicted by general relativity.
It appears to me as though you may have started with an agenda of "instantaneous gravity", and so choose a lack of apparent aberration as some sort of proof.

The far more important phrase is the first I have highlighted.

The second highlighted phrase "with an extra interaction somehow added" only becomes interesting if one is, for some reason or other, sceptical regarding the willing suspension of disbelief that is "free fall orbits", as in free fall my ass.

I might further suggest that the additional velocity through space required to attain orbit might be some indication of an additional interaction. Since every theory of the universe accepts and posits the existence of an aethereal field of some description, perhaps it could be that the additional velocity through the aethereal field, required for orbit, may have some correlation to an additional interaction.


Every theory accepts and posits the existence of an aethereal field of some description, perhaps there is some interaction with said aethereal field in relation to the travel of matter through the field.
OR
Every theory accepts and posits the existence of an aethereal field of some description, but there is no interaction with said aethereal field in relation to the travel of matter through the field.

Michael

sjw40364
Guest

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:32 am

That is because instantaneous IS impossible, although orders of magnitude larger than c would appear instantaneous to our limited technology and sight.

And the different theories do NOT lead to different assumptions. There is no observed abberation that we can detect with current equipment, so there is no possible way to assume that gravity travels at c under any theory whatsoever. To match all observations the force of gravity MUST travel faster than c to omit abberation. We are still debating the speede of c, many observations come up with different velocities, our equipment is barely sensitive enough to measure light accurately. But gravity so far is off the measurement scale we can not measure it at all. That is all that can be said about it's speed. We once believed light was instantaneous until technology advanced enough to enable us to measure it somewhat accurately.

Because there is no observed abberation does not mean that it has none, it just means we can not measure it with current technology any more than we could measure the speed of light until technology advanced enough.

That extra interaction IS the movement of charged particles through the ether, beacuse charged particles moving through the ether (ether polarized by the electric fields to create magnetic fields) induces electrical current. ALL orbits are accelerations along the vector, and acceleration is only possible if a continuous energy is applied. Without a continuous energy supplied there is no continuous acceleration.

Aardwolf
Posts: 1330
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:56 am

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Aardwolf » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:24 am

Michael V wrote:sjw,
Finally, let us return to the question asked in Ref. [1]: what do experiments say about
the speed of gravity? The answer, unfortunately, is that so far they say fairly little. In the
absence of direct measurements of propagation speed,observations must be filtered through
theory, and different theoretical assumptions lead to different deductions
. In particular,
while the observed absence of aberration is consistent with instantaneous propagation (with
an extra interaction somehow added
on to explain the gravitational radiation reaction), it is
also consistent with the speed-of-light propagation predicted by general relativity.
It appears to me as though you may have started with an agenda of "instantaneous gravity", and so choose a lack of apparent aberration as some sort of proof.
As opposed to the agenda that because Einstein says communication must be restricted by C, we must therefore instil into a planet the ability to predict future movements of millions of orbiting objects and also the ability to predict how its own movements will affect those other objects and its own subsequent reaction to those movements.

I’d think rather stick with my agenda that the orbiting planets are reacting to movements of other objects, not predicting them.
Michael V wrote:The far more important phrase is the first I have highlighted.
So you can either deduce that planets are reacting to exponentially faster interactions than C or that planets have the ability to solve immeasurably complex n-body problems. I know which I prefer.

Michael V
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:58 am

sjw,
sjw wrote:There is no observed aberration that we can detect with current equipment, so there is no possible way to assume that gravity travels at c under any theory whatsoever. To match all observations the force of gravity MUST travel faster than c to omit aberration.
You have made an unjustified leap of logic. You admit to yourself that there may be thus far undetected aberration, but you make no allowance for incorrect theory. The sentence bolded above should read:

To match all observations to Newtonian theory the force of gravity MUST travel faster than c to omit aberration.

If the theory is incorrect or incomplete, then observational data must be reassessed.

Action at a distance is an absurd impossibility. You accept and even insist upon an aethereal field that has physical interaction with matter. Yet, you make no allowance for any affect of the physical travel of matter through that physical field of physical, albeit, aethereal particles. You cannot have interaction between matter and an aethereal field without actually having interaction between matter and an aethereal field. You accept interaction on the one hand and then dismiss it on the other. Make up your mind, either accept the existence of an aethereal field and therefore that matter must interact with the field in many varied ways, or dismiss any possibility of an aethereal field and live with action at a distance.

Michael

Michael V
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:41 am

Aardwolf,
Aardwolf wrote:As opposed to the agenda that because Einstein says communication must be restricted by C, we must therefore instil into a planet the ability to predict future movements of millions of orbiting objects and also the ability to predict how its own movements will affect those other objects and its own subsequent reaction to those movements.
I thoroughly reject SR and GR, and I suspect to a greater extent than most on these forums.

I absolutely insist that action at a distance is an absurd impossibility and that an aethereal field is a logical imperative.

Quantum mechanics, and thus far everybody else, appears to take the approach that matter is matter and the aethereal field is the aethereal field and that they exist as separate entities and only interact casually. A bit like a boat on water: the boat bobs up and down and gets moved around by the current, but the boat is the boat and the water is the water.

My suggestion is that the very existence of matter is defined by its interaction with an aethereal particle field.
As such, I also suggest that all motion and travel of matter is at all times a function of its existence defined by the aethereal field, within which and with which, it exists.

Aardwolf wrote:So you can either deduce that planets are reacting to exponentially faster interactions than C or that planets have the ability to solve immeasurably complex n-body problems. I know which I prefer.
OR, you might consider that c is the speed limit of the universe and that the theory of gravitational orbits is incorrect or incomplete. Effectively, you are assuming that you have attained all possible theoretical knowledge of orbital mechanics and so the only possibility is to insist on superluminal gravitational action.
With no established physical theory of gravity, no established physical theory of light, no established physical theory of charge and electromagnetism, your insistence upon something for which there is no physical evidence, may be premature.

Perhaps there is more to learn about motion than has been previously anticipated.

Michael

Sparky
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:20 pm

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Sparky » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:53 pm

I ran across information about a comet that is suppose to have a period of 1 million years! Is it theorized that the sun's gravitational field is what attracts such long period comets, I guess, from outside our solar system.

Would the solar system, as a whole, have a gravitation effect upon anything outside of it? :?
Then, upon entering the system, a body would be gravitationally affected by the closest large planet(s), til the sun's influence is strong enough to take over? :?

The claim of gravity having an infinite range, I think, is an over reliance upon math. After all, how large would our sun appear from the edge of our solar system? The gravity effect is much more complicated than the apparent attraction of two or more masses. :?
ireallydonno :? :oops:
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

sjw40364
Guest

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:24 pm

Michael V wrote:sjw,
sjw wrote:There is no observed aberration that we can detect with current equipment, so there is no possible way to assume that gravity travels at c under any theory whatsoever. To match all observations the force of gravity MUST travel faster than c to omit aberration.
You have made an unjustified leap of logic. You admit to yourself that there may be thus far undetected aberration, but you make no allowance for incorrect theory. The sentence bolded above should read:

To match all observations to Newtonian theory the force of gravity MUST travel faster than c to omit aberration.

If the theory is incorrect or incomplete, then observational data must be reassessed.

Action at a distance is an absurd impossibility. You accept and even insist upon an aethereal field that has physical interaction with matter. Yet, you make no allowance for any affect of the physical travel of matter through that physical field of physical, albeit, aethereal particles. You cannot have interaction between matter and an aethereal field without actually having interaction between matter and an aethereal field. You accept interaction on the one hand and then dismiss it on the other. Make up your mind, either accept the existence of an aethereal field and therefore that matter must interact with the field in many varied ways, or dismiss any possibility of an aethereal field and live with action at a distance.

Michael
No, ANY theory. I do not believe Newtonian theory is any more correct than SR or GR. The EM force (sub-field or hyper-field) travels faster than c, of that I have no doubt, just as I have no doubt that not even it travels instantly. Anything with motion has travel time, therefore it has abberation, but orders of magnitude less than even light itself. What we see as light and electrons, are merely things traveling through the ether, and therefore controlled by it because it is overall a dielectric.

Particle emission or shadowing fails on so many levels I see no path there. The road has been explored and leads to dead ends. A sea of particles that is bound to coherence by the combination of electric and magnetic forces is the only avenue with our current knowledge I see possible. Everyone always mentions that if you place two balls in proximity in space they will always come together. Place two neutrally boyant balls in a tank in proximity and get back to me with the results.

I believe gravity is nothing more than the interaction of things with the ether, they polarize it, it aligns axis and force is transfered along that axis. They say only stationary charges emit electric fields, and only moving charges emit electric and magnetic fields. I for one do not agree, because I for one do not believe there is such a state as stationary, anywhere in the universe. That word has no meaning or place in theory.

I don't think anyone knows what charge is, or electricity, or magnetism, or gravity, including me. But I seriously boubt if you reject SR or GR more than me :) or believe in a ether more than me.

sjw40364
Guest

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:34 pm

Sparky wrote:I ran across information about a comet that is suppose to have a period of 1 million years! Is it theorized that the sun's gravitational field is what attracts such long period comets, I guess, from outside our solar system.

Would the solar system, as a whole, have a gravitation effect upon anything outside of it? :?
Then, upon entering the system, a body would be gravitationally affected by the closest large planet(s), til the sun's influence is strong enough to take over? :?

The claim of gravity having an infinite range, I think, is an over reliance upon math. After all, how large would our sun appear from the edge of our solar system? The gravity effect is much more complicated than the apparent attraction of two or more masses. :?
ireallydonno :? :oops:
That is assuming the small segment of the arc they could have possibly observed in a one million year orbit, would once it entered our system appear to be centered on our sun. But once it leaves our system again will it take a new trajectory when none of us will be around to discover the truth? Don't think space isn't filled with micro to planet sized objects as well as stars, moving with the galaxies spiral and on an outward trajectory. They may or may not be captured, but once close they will repond to the Sun's influence. But as you said, the only real question is distance.

Michael V
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:48 am

sjw,
sjw wrote:Particle emission or shadowing fails on so many levels I see no path there.
To what are you referring? I can only think "shadowing" is a reference to Fatio/Le Sage particle field gravity. If so, I have completely solved the faults in that model with a consistent mechanical explanation, along with gravity, mass, light, charge, magnetism, electricity and wave-particle duality. Everything is already discovered.

See here:
http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Essays/View/4286
or here:
http://www.worldsci.org/php/index.php?t ... ay&id=6814

sjw wrote:A sea of particles that is bound to coherence by the combination of electric and magnetic forces is the only avenue with our current knowledge I see possible.
It is a shame then that you have no theory regarding the nature of EM forces. I wish you luck on your road to enlightenment.

Michael

sjw40364
Guest

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:57 pm

And if gravity is shadowing, then why do bodies not continue to spiral into other bodies? Read your papers before, still doesn't solve the underlying problem of stable orbits and even orbits that expand outwards defying the very shadowing that attracted them in the first place.

Michael V
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:36 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:24 am

sjw,
sjw wrote:And if gravity is shadowing, then why do bodies not continue to spiral into other bodies? Read your papers before, still doesn't solve the underlying problem of stable orbits and even orbits that expand outwards defying the very shadowing that attracted them in the first place.
Matter has around it a net inward field momentum density. Whilst a body is on its own this of no consequence. However, when two bodies come into proximity the net inward momentum density is reduced at their facing sides, because they are both victim to the other body's reduced outward momentum. As such the term "Shadowing", which may have been appropriate for the Fatio model, is not precisely what is going on.
from a previous post sjw wrote:I insist any object in orbit around another object CAN NOT be in free fall. That there is a force acting upon all objects at all times, that free fall is a fantasy. It is impossible for any object to orbit another and be in what we term free fall. It is generating energy in its orbit which it is using to maintain its orbit.
No, it is not generating energy and the state of "orbit" is not special per se. The object is travelling through space, it is travelling through the aethereal field. It has more "velocity" than the object it is orbiting. Without this extra "velocity" gravity WILL cause to SPIRAL toward the other body. The orbiting object does not need to use its engines to maintain orbit, all that is required is that it have sufficient velocity to attain orbit. Once orbit is attained no further input is required. The only difference between an orbiting object and a spiraling inwards object is velocity.

The point I am trying to emphasise here is that An orbiting object is constantly subject to gravitational acceleration, there can be no doubt about that. Present theory of orbital mechanics gives no opposing action of any kind, just that the orbiter falls freely toward the ground and misses the ground. We are to believe that somehow the orbiter is going fast enough to "escape" from the gravitational effect. Willing suspension of disbelief is useful for enjoying fiction, but is of no use for understanding mechanical physics. The orbiter's velocity through the aethereal field is the only additional factor that maintains its orbit.

We are naturally quite unwilling to accept action at a distance. Near instantaneous action over astronomical distance is next down the list. It is a cop out, it is a way of avoiding further analysis. Quantum mechanics uses a similar ploy with wave-particle duality, aka quantum superposition. Unable to work out the physical process, they went to Copenhagen and the top "physicists" of the day openly declared that nature works by spooky magic - calling it "intrinsic uncertainty" does nothing to hide the fact that "Modern Physics" is the study of spooky magic. The simple motion of spinning particles through the aethereal field has been misinterpreted at magic. Do not fall into the same trap. Near instantaneous action is not a scientific solution. It is the result of "I can't think what else it could be". The orbiter's velocity through the aethereal field is the only additional factor that maintains its orbit.

If you are unhappy with ACTION AT A DISTANCE, the an aethereal field becomes a logical imperative.
If the field exists it must exist everywhere at all times. For an aethereal particle field to exist everywhere at all times, the motion and very existence of matter must be affected by it at all times.
A boat in water is affected by the water: it bobs up and down and moves with the current, but the boat is the boat and the water is the water and they can be defined separately.
Matter in an aethereal field is defined by its existence in that aethereal field, it cannot be defined separately.

Michael

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests