Action at a Distance = Fiction

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Goldminer
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Goldminer » Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:07 am

webolife wrote:
4. This is why the universe seems to act like a solid, why gravitation is "FTL" and why when we see light it is there, never on it's way.
If everything is waves, as I believe, the aether can indeed be solid. (matter is just standing waves, known as solitons.) Your next statement is superfluous, since light is never seen "on its way". Einstein, et al, think they can "see" light "on its way," that is how the myth of the "diagonal moving photon" arose. A light pulse has a latency of about a foot-nanosecond. That is undeniable, my friend. Radar, GPS, EDM surveying equipment, and time delay reflectometry all rely upon this proven fact.

What is overlooked, IMHO, is that the radiation from a source remains associated with the inertial source, contrary to consensus Einstein STR, i.e, the spherical "static" electric field around a proton or electron remains centered upon the unaccelerated proton or electron, whether it is regarded as being "stationary" or "in motion," "motion" always being relative to some other particle/object. Gravity, IMHO, is also centered upon the source, as alluded in the above posts. Normally, non rectilinear motion is accelerated motion, however, if we regard free-fall as an inertial state, the spherical gravity field remains centered upon the mass associated with it. (Satellites in orbit are in a free fall state) Thus, the increased gravitational acceleration from a mascon, for instance, would appear as a beam, and not as a "sprinkler" emission, as the Earth, Moon, or Sun rotates; thus the effect of the increased acceleration acts "instantly" as the beam sweeps by the other object.

Or maybe it's all smoke and mirrors!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

sjw40364
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:22 am

I insist any object in orbit around another object CAN NOT be in free fall. That there is a force acting upon all objects at all times, that free fall is a fantasy. It is impossible for any object to orbit another and be in what we term free fall. It is generating energy in its orbit which it is using to maintain its orbit. And this simple fact is why it is said charges in closed loops require no energy to complete that loop, while charges in straight lines require energy expenditure. Likewise photons can not be the charge carriers of the electric force, as photons interact with charges whether they are traveling in straight lines or closed loops, yet only those in closed loops are said to require no energy. It is time to start rewriting the basics, before we can move on to the unknown.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode73.html

Goldminer
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Goldminer » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:16 pm

sjw40364 wrote:I insist any object in orbit around another object CAN NOT be in free fall. That there is a force acting upon all objects at all times, that free fall is a fantasy. It is impossible for any object to orbit another and be in what we term free fall. It is generating energy in its orbit which it is using to maintain its orbit. And this simple fact is why it is said charges in closed loops require no energy to complete that loop, while charges in straight lines require energy expenditure. Likewise photons can not be the charge carriers of the electric force, as photons interact with charges whether they are traveling in straight lines or closed loops, yet only those in closed loops are said to require no energy. It is time to start rewriting the basics, before we can move on to the unknown.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode73.html
Plez note: Your insistence does nothing to reality. It is only your opinion. The Inertial State of matter requires no energy input. Even on the surface of the Earth, where everything but gravity can be minimized, matter remains at rest or in a given state of rectilinear motion without any input of energy. Objects in circular orbit remain in circular orbit at the same tangential velocity without any energy input. What energy do you see being added to such an orbit? How is it measured? Objects "generating their own energy?" How does that work?

The Earth, in its elliptical orbit around the Sun, constantly exchanges kinetic energy for potential energy and vice versa. At perihelion the speed is at maximum and free fall distance is at the minimum; at aphelion the speed is at its minimum, and free fall distance is at its maximum; no outside energy required.

I hope you are meaning the charges travel in "straight line or loops," since light travels rectilinearly unless reflected or refracted.
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

sjw40364
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by sjw40364 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Goldminer wrote:
sjw40364 wrote:I insist any object in orbit around another object CAN NOT be in free fall. That there is a force acting upon all objects at all times, that free fall is a fantasy. It is impossible for any object to orbit another and be in what we term free fall. It is generating energy in its orbit which it is using to maintain its orbit. And this simple fact is why it is said charges in closed loops require no energy to complete that loop, while charges in straight lines require energy expenditure. Likewise photons can not be the charge carriers of the electric force, as photons interact with charges whether they are traveling in straight lines or closed loops, yet only those in closed loops are said to require no energy. It is time to start rewriting the basics, before we can move on to the unknown.
http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode73.html
Plez note: Your insistence does nothing to reality. It is only your opinion. The Inertial State of matter requires no energy input. Even on the surface of the Earth, where everything but gravity can be minimized, matter remains at rest or in a given state of rectilinear motion without any input of energy. Objects in circular orbit remain in circular orbit at the same tangential velocity without any energy input. What energy do you see being added to such an orbit? How is it measured? Objects "generating their own energy?" How does that work?

The Earth, in its elliptical orbit around the Sun, constantly exchanges kinetic energy for potential energy and vice versa. At perihelion the speed is at maximum and free fall distance is at the minimum; at aphelion the speed is at its minimum, and free fall distance is at its maximum; no outside energy required.

I hope you are meaning the charges travel in "straight line or loops," since light travels rectilinearly unless reflected or refracted.
I am saying that anyone that believes that charges moved from point A to point B requires x amount of energy and also believe that charges moved from point A to point A in a closed loop requires no energy is deluding themselves.
Planets are charged particles in magnetic fields: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode73.html
There must be current: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode75.html
And all conductors moving through magnetic fields induce current: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode85.html
So why do you believe no work is magically being done in a closed loop when the law of magnetic induction plainly says charge is generated? The charge is the same at the end as at the beginning because the generated charge equals the power used to traverse the closed loop. While no such induced currents exist for charges traveling in straight lines through magnetic fields, at least to the same degree. Do you believe different photons interact with charges traveling in closed loops versus straight lines? Then why do only closed loops generate current from photons if they are the electromagnetic force carrier?

Because you have errors: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/3 ... ode55.html
There is a slight discrepancy between what we are saying now, and what we said earlier. In Sect. 5, we maintained that the electric field inside a conductor is zero. However, if there is a potential difference $V$ between the beginning and the end of a conducting wire, as described above, then there must be an electric field running along the length of the wire. In fact, if the wire is straight, and the electric potential decreases uniformly with distance traveled along the wire, then the longitudinal electric field-strength is given by $E = V/L$ (see Sect. 5.3), where $L$ is the length of the wire. The earlier result that there is zero electric field inside a conductor is equivalent to saying that conductors possess zero electrical resistance. This follows because if $R$ is zero then the electric field, and, hence, the potential difference $V$, must be zero, otherwise an infinite current would flow according to Ohm's law. It turns out that good conductors (i.e., copper, silver, aluminium, and most other metals) possess non-zero electrical resistances. However, these resistances are generally so small that if we were to connect the terminals of a battery together using a wire fashioned out of a good conductor then the current which would flow in the wire, according to Ohm's law, would be so large that it would damage both the wire and the battery. We usually call such a circuit a short-circuit. In order to prevent excessively large currents from flowing, conventional electric circuits contain components, called resistors, whose electrical resistance is many orders of magnitude greater than that of the conducting wires in the circuit.
Hmm, turns out infinate currents may flow and we put in resistors to prevent just that from happening. Can't even explain current in a wire without saying there is no current in the wire. Zero electric field my a..

Plasmatic
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Plasmatic » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:46 pm

Web Said:
2. AAAD is therefore a matter of perspective only. (1)Some around here cannot conceptualize "force", only relative motion, with momentum transferred only by collision. This forces them to theorize all sorts of imaginary intermediary particles filling the spaces between the ostensible centers: an aether, or a quantum field, or rope-thread-chains, or FTL gravitions... (2)Yet there is no doubt in the minds of those who can conceptualize "force" that actions are induced upon objects by other objects separated by some fairly large amount of space, and that this induction occurs at an immeasurably[?] high speed.
Bold and numbers mine.

Hey Web, thought i'd play a bit too. 1st, (1) is actually what those folks claim a force is,so your begging the question and 2nd, Im glad to see someone else has a theory of concept formation sorted out. Could you explain what your epistemic process of conceptualization consist of so we can see how you managed to differentiate the errors in the process of those some from the process used by those who can... ;) My point is, if you dont have an explicit thoery of concept formation your claims must be arbitrary. Surely you can't mean that any words strung together in a proposition constitutes evidence of conceptualization. Likewise you surely cant think that if someone disagrees with your string of words that they are incapable of conceptualizing your proposition as such :) In other words you need to allow for the possibility that one disagrees with your concept in particular and your idea of what a valid concept is/consist of. In such a case youd need to start the debate at the level of the conceptualization process as such......
"Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification"......" I am therefore Ill think"
Ayn Rand
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
Aristotle

seasmith
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by seasmith » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:56 pm

sjw40364 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:40 pm
webolife wrote:
And whenever I read the term "polarized" I think to myself "vector" -- a force in a direction.
And a force is applied in a direction, but without actual particle transfer. Dielectric materials only shift axis, they do not transfer across distances, but the force they store can be transferred at whatever speed the permittivity of the dielectric allows.

The electric susceptibility χe of a dielectric material is a measure of how easily it polarizes in response to an electric field. This, in turn, determines the electric permittivity of the material and thus influences many other phenomena in that medium, from the capacitance of capacitors to the speed of light.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric

So a dielectric medium would control how fast light could traverse, but what controls the dielectrics speed of energy transfer [if] it it controls light?
One could start with a concept of aetheric pressure, or tensegrity ....

~

kiwi
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by kiwi » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:39 am

Best analogy to try and picture whats happening regards the SAAAD that Ive heard... is when you push a finger into a hanging catenary, the entire length of it is altered instantly at EVERY point ... when you deform it at ANY point :?

I believe Euclid belongs in the basement with the rest of the Black Holes

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webolife
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by webolife » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:36 pm

Whoa, hey Plasmatic, nice to see you from time to time.
I thought I was starting at the level of conceptualization!!! There are numerous concepts that can be regarded as identifiable with force... for some Potential Energy is EMF, where F means "force." For some, Michael V and you perhaps?, "Impetus = Momentum" is the visualization you use and Fxt [Impetus] becomes "Force". Work is considered as Fxd, so F becomes the potential to do work, but not Work itself... The last century or so of physics has seen numerous attempts to corporealize/corpuscularize various forces, with the current lexicon of particle names as evidence... photons and gravitons, neutrinos, gluons, quarks and wimps are among the more exotic of these. What it comes down to is that there are numerous effects that seem to occur across space without a time delay, from Casimir force to gravity, to voltage/EMF, to light, eg. entanglement. This confronts one with a remarkable paradox, the "solidity" of space. Is this just an apparent phenomenon, or is it real? Is it mediated by aetheric particles? If so how do these APs transmit causation rectilinearly across immeasurable distances, or even benignly small ones, considering the vast network of electrical activity we envision at every scale? That that there is no definitive answer to these questions keeps us talking. I don't believe that others have to agree with my concept in order to understand it, nor that understanding it necessarily leads to agreement. I seek more clarity about my own ideas as well as others as I peruse the threads of this forum.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Michael V
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:46 pm

sjw wrote:I insist any object in orbit around another object CAN NOT be in free fall. That there is a force acting upon all objects at all times, that free fall is a fantasy. It is impossible for any object to orbit another and be in what we term free fall. It is generating energy in its orbit which it is using to maintain its orbit. And this simple fact is why it is said charges in closed loops require no energy to complete that loop, while charges in straight lines require energy expenditure. Likewise photons can not be the charge carriers of the electric force, as photons interact with charges whether they are traveling in straight lines or closed loops, yet only those in closed loops are said to require no energy. It is time to start rewriting the basics, before we can move on to the unknown.
Goldminer wrote: Plez note: Your insistence does nothing to reality. It is only your opinion. The Inertial State of matter requires no energy input. Even on the surface of the Earth, where everything but gravity can be minimized, matter remains at rest or in a given state of rectilinear motion without any input of energy. Objects in circular orbit remain in circular orbit at the same tangential velocity without any energy input. What energy do you see being added to such an orbit? How is it measured? Objects "generating their own energy?" How does that work?
This statement is very true:
It is time to start rewriting the basics, before we can move on to the unknown.

This statement is very very false:
matter remains at rest or in a given state of rectilinear motion

Classical mechanics, as applied to matter, is deeply and profoundly flawed. Matter never ever moves in straight lines; it cannot move in straight lines and there is no process, force or method in the universe that can make matter move in straight lines - it is a complete and total impossibility. Matter is never ever at rest and can never ever move in rectilinear motion - both rest and rectilinear motion describe a physical impossibility.
Goldminer wrote:Objects "generating their own energy?" How does that work?
It does not and can not generate energy....never ever ever!!!! Matter has a constant and unvarying momentum and energy. Matter is constantly in motion at c. Matter never ever moves faster than c and never ever moves slower than c.

Apparently, when an apple falls from a tree, it is gravity that provides the "force effect" that pushes it toward the Earth. Supposed, when gravity is the only "force" acting, then a body is described as being in free-fall. Yet, objects in orbit do not behave very apple-like and the apple from the tree does not behave very....weightlessly.


Michael

PS Inertia is motional hysteresis. What else could it be?

Michael V
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:51 pm

webo wrote:What it comes down to is that there are numerous effects that seem to occur across space without a time delay,
No signal, motion or action occurs or transmits faster than c.....none whatsoever.....in my humble opinion. ;)
webo wrote:Work is considered as Fxd, so F becomes the potential to do work, but not Work itself
Err, no. Energy is the potential to do work. Work is energy in action, so to speak.


Michael
Last edited by Michael V on Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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webolife
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by webolife » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:45 pm

Just to be clear, Michael, do you consider then that gravitation is energy? or that it is force? is it the potential to do work? are potential energy and force equivalent physical phenomena? Or are we using "energy" and "force" interchangeably depending on the convention of a particular situation? Is it possible to physically distinguish the two concepts apart from their separate use in mathematical formulae? For you, is momentum the same as force? or energy? or? Again I'm wondering how you conceptually distinguish these physical phenomena, not how they might be used to express different mathematical terms... or is that possible?
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

Michael V
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:23 pm

webolife,

(and hopefully sjw will join in too and all others are welcome - the more the merrier.)
webo wrote:Just to be clear, Michael, do you consider then that gravitation is energy? or that it is force? is it the potential to do work? are potential energy and force equivalent physical phenomena? Or are we using "energy" and "force" interchangeably depending on the convention of a particular situation? Is it possible to physically distinguish the two concepts apart from their separate use in mathematical formulae? For you, is momentum the same as force? or energy? or? Again I'm wondering how you conceptually distinguish these physical phenomena, not how they might be used to express different mathematical terms... or is that possible?
do you consider then that gravitation is energy?
or that it is force?
is it the potential to do work?
are potential energy and force equivalent physical phenomena?
This is the abridged explanation of my theory of the universe:

The absurd fiction of action-at-a-distance makes the existence of an aethereal particle field a logical imperative. By deductive reasoning I conclude that the field must be in continuous random motion. By a study of gyroscopic behaviour I have further concluded that spinning objects will precess about a pivot point and that the pivot point of choice is always the greatest point of force acting on that spinning object at any given instant (and I do mean instant!).

How so ever you choose to describe, construct or populate the aethereal field, there can be no doubt that such a property of space exists. The absurd impossibility of action-at-a-distance demands an aethereal field. If you are a mathematician you may describe such a field as a "quantum vacuum" and populate it with virtual particles that pop into and out of existence as and when the equational need arises. (Although, there is no "quantum" in the field, the quantum belongs to matter.) Regardless of the theoretical description of the "interactional mediation field", it will always retain a rather awkward problem: How does matter move through the aethereal field?

My assertion is that electrons and protons are spinning objects. Placed in a moving aethereal field, they are effectively always moving relative to the field. In moving through the field an object such as a spinning electron will experience "harder" collisions at its forward most point. This point is therefore the point of greatest force and so becomes a pivot point about which a spinning electron will be compelled to precess. As soon as the electron begins to precess, the pivot point changes and so precession continues about a continually changing point. The electron will therefore move in a circular curve and as the electron travels it will describe a helical trajectory. I refer to this process as Helical Precession. The helix has three descriptors: arc length - the distance along a complete turn of the helix,
pitch length - the distance between complete turns, curvature - the radius of curvature.

The velocity of the electron along its precessional helix is c. The de Broglie formula with a velocity of c for an electron gives the Compton wavelength, which is the pitch length of the helix. de Broglie "waves" are helical; a helix not a sine wave. The radius of curvature is the classical electron "charge" radius. The energy of an electron along one complete arc length is h, Plancks constant - the quantum of energy - the smallest detectable motion of matter. The range of motion of the electron can be described as the circular curvature of the helix and the wavelength of the helix. The ratio of curvature to wavelength is the electromagnetic coupling constant, alpha, also called the fine structure constant.

To maintain its spin, the electron must take/receive momentum (or energy if you prefer) from the constant collisions of the aethereal field. This means that there is more field momentum toward the electron than away from the electron. This reduction in outward momentum is called mass and the excess of inward momentum leads to gravity.

As the electron moves through the field along its precessional helix, some of the momentum gained through spin is returned to the field, by collision, as charge. Since the electron is moving along a helix the charge momentum that is "emanating" away from the electron has a helical geometry : the electron is constantly returning momentum/energy to the field as helical charge photons. From a completely random field the electron is continually helically precessing in different directions, so that it emits/radiates charge photons spherically as an "electrostatic field".

When two objects approach they present to each other a reduction in field momentum density to the other object, so that the field momentum is greatest from the opposite side of each particle, which has the effect of pushing them together: gravity. But, and this is a truly important point, the accelerative "force" the object experiences is not due to the imbalance of field momentum. The point of force, becomes an additional pivot point about which the object precesses. The electron/proton is still being constantly bombarded by the field, so that it has spin, mass helical precession and charge, but now there is an additional pivot point. The electron must still maintain its inherent helical precession, but now it starts an secondary precessional helix. The motive force comes from the field via spin and helical precession, but now that translates into "linear" travel. However, "linear" travel is not rectilinear it is helical. Matter does not and can not move rectilinearly. Matter can only move helically, matter moves by de Broglie waves.

The only motive force of matter is that of its inherent helical precession. All causal forces: gravity, charge, collision, are merely forces of influence that become pivoting forces leading to secondary precession helices that we recognise as linear travel. Of course, it is not possible to travel with a secondary precessional velocity that is greater than the inherent precessional velocity: nothing can have a "linear" velocity greater than c.

Matter de Broglie waves are claimed to have a wavelength that is too small to see, but that the truth is the complete opposite. The given de Broglie uses h, but h only applies to single electrons and protons. For composite masses, which by definition are moving by a secondary helix, the energy per cycle, in Joules seconds, is much larger.


This post is getting quite long and it may be as well to read my recent paper: On the Motion of Matter:

http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Essays/View/4286



Michael

Sparky
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Sparky » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:17 pm

Michael, I couldn't dwnld the pdf.. :oops:



But, I like your theory.... ;)
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

kiwi
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by kiwi » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:02 pm

kiwi wrote:Best analogy to try and picture whats happening regards the SAAAD that Ive heard... is when you push a finger into a hanging catenary, the entire length of it is altered instantly at EVERY point ... when you deform it at ANY point :?

I believe Euclid belongs in the basement with the rest of the Black Holes
I guess it would help too show the event that the analogy is aligned with .... Gauss determined the re-appearance of Ceres from the original sightings of Piazzi,.. this he did without concern for the "mass" etc of Cere's, that in itself imo shows the insistence of using Gravity as the key to explaining orbital positioning as wholly redundent, the objects "mass" has nothing to do with this, and it appears that the orbital positions are pre-determined by a set of harmonic intervals

[snip]
quoteWhat did Gauss do, which other astronomers
and mathematicians of his time did not, and
which led those others to make wildly erroneous
forecasts on the path of the new planet? Perhaps
we shall have to consult Gauss’s great teacher, Johannes
Kepler, to give us some clues to this mystery.
Gauss first of all adopted Kepler’s crucial hypothesis,
that the motion of a celestial object is determined solely by its
orbit, according to the intelligible principles Kepler
demonstrated to govern all known motions in the solar
system. In the Keplerian determination of orbital motion,
no information is required concerning mass, velocity, or
any other details of the orbiting object itself. Moreover, as
Gauss demonstrated, and as we shall rediscover for ourselves,
the orbit and the orbital motion in its totality, can
be adduced from nothing more than the internal “curvature”
of any portion of the orbit, however small.
Think this over carefully. Here, the science of Kepler,
Gauss, and Riemann distinguishes itself absolutely from
that of Galileo, Newton, Laplace, et al. Orbits and
changes of orbit (which in turn are subsumed by higherorder
orbits) are ontologically primary. The relation of the
Keplerian orbit, as a relatively “timeless” existence, to the
array of successive positions of the orbiting body, is like
that of an hypothesis to its array of theorems. From this
standpoint, we can say it is the orbit which “moves” the
planet, not the planet which creates the orbit by its
motion! --http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97 ... _ceres.pdf
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_97 ... _ceres.pdf

Michael V
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Re: Action at a Distance = Fiction

Post by Michael V » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:13 am

To avoid further hijacking this fine thread, I have started a new topic in the "Future of Science" section, entitled "the Motion of Matter".

I invite all those interested in the true fundamental nature of the universe to join me there. I believe I am correct, but I need your help to find if and where I may have erred.

Gravity, Charge, Positive and Negative, Magnetism, North and South, Electricity, Light, all explained as understandable physical phenomena.


Michael

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