JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by David Talbott » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:50 pm

Nereid wrote: In any case, once stars form they will quickly migrate to orbits determined by the total mass interior to those orbits (approximately), assuming that the only significant net force acting on them is gravitation ... and that brings us right back to the original need for dark matter (whether baryonic or not), i.e. the mass implied by their orbits is greater than the estimated total in gas/plasma, dust, and stars, and this 'mass gap' increases with distance from the galactic nucleus.
Well, this may be a minor matter, but I'm not understanding the implication of this statement. In a gravity only system, why would a star's orbit be affected only by the total interior mass of stars? Do masses and velocities of stars outside a particular star's orbit have no affect? This is not something I've ever thought about before, but it seems counter-intuitive. Does the underlying equilibrium of an interior star remain undisturbed if you add to exterior mass? Maybe so, or something to ponder. :?

Or perhaps, assuming overall equilibrium conditions, exterior stars would only perturb interior orbits, without altering their average distance from the center of gravity? Hmmm... Awaiting clarity...

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by David Talbott » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:10 pm

Nereid wrote: Peratt accepts, in all his galaxy formation and evolution work (or at least the two 1986 papers and the book), that the Hubble redshift-distance relationship is valid. Putting it bluntly, and turning up the contrast, any Arpian 'intrinsic redshift' in Peratt's work - including that on quasars - is insignificant.
In my own discussions with Peratt, he's expressed support for Arp's interpretation of quasars and explicitly stated that the standard redshift-distance correlation is not correct. He would factor in a frequency shift from the Wolf effect, named after Emil Wolf.

I don't know whether Tony arrived at his conclusion before or after the papers you cite, but I do know he's a very savvy fellow and will not throw more than one fundamental challenge out at a time.

And incidentally folks, if you'd like to see ScienceApologist true to form, look at the Wikipedia page on the "Wolf effect." You have to admire Ian Tresman's fair-mindedness and tenacity, though it got him banned, while Josh Schroeder, aka ScienceApologist, continues to wreak mayhem on Wikipedia, leaving Wikipedia a disaster zone wherever it touches on challenges to mainstream ideology.

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Siggy_G » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:01 pm

David Talbott wrote:And incidentally folks, if you'd like to see ScienceApologist true to form, look at the Wikipedia page on the "Wolf effect." You have to admire Ian Tresman's fair-mindedness and tenacity, though it got him banned, while Josh Schroeder, aka ScienceApologist, continues to wreak mayhem on Wikipedia, leaving Wikipedia a disaster zone wherever it touches on challenges to mainstream ideology.
I read through the Discussion section on Wold Effect, and I'm really puzzled! Here Ian Tresman cites several reliable and peer-reviewed sources and argues in a very to-the-point manner, whilst ScienceApologist (and Guy) keeps saying, more or less, that he declares this conversation over and that Ian should stop being so childish... Great.

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by jjohnson » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:23 pm

Nereid,
1. The bottom 2 graphs (I just noticed this) have the ordinate scaled in kpc, not arc minutes, to show the wider extent of the rotation curve where the diocotron instabilities occurred in the simulated galaxy simulation, also depicted in Figure 3.20 in compressed form. I have no explanation regarding where Peratt located the zero point on the ordinate, relative to the galaxy or its center, as he didn't show a cut line through a galaxy by way of illustration.

2. Well, Peratt neither said nor implied that Doppler shift of the Halpha line was the only method of measuring rotation in a spiral galaxy. But that's irrelevant, because in a galaxy simulation I don't imagine that the Doppler shift is the easiest or most direct method of obtaining a rotational velocity value at various distances from the center of rotation. I think you said yourself in one of your other posts here quite recently that galaxy rotation is measured by observing its Halpha Doppler shift.

3. It's not relevant. I think what he is saying is that the galactic rotation rate in close is steadily rising, in that same paragraph 3.11.4, where your quote left out,
These data show (1) a nearly linear solid-body rotation for the galaxy center (the first few arc minutes from center, 2) a nearly radially independent velocity profile in the spiral arms, and 3) distinct structure in the spiral arms that appears on the so-called flat portion of the velocity curve (beyond the first few arc minutes or, equivalently, the first few kiloparsecs).
Nowhere does Peratt mention the word Arp or redshift in conjunction with his galactic angular or distance measurements. You might be inferring it because he discussed an angular measurement and a distance in the same breath, but if all he is doing is scaling from a simulation, a redshift need not be brought into it. He is just illustrating that his simulated galaxy exhibits structures and rotation characteristics similar to those of some observed spiral galaxies, plus it had the (to me) added bonus of developing and displaying a type of plasma instability that had been observed with some galaxies and other high energy astronomical phenomena as well. He discusses the diocotron instability in the first chapter.

I frankly have no idea of Peratt's take on Arp's work on redshift and peculiar galaxies; he has not talked with me about that. Talbott's letter might answer that, but in this context it is hardly relevant. What I responded to was only your statement that Peratt never actually modeled galaxies. I still think that he did, and that your three points did not address my response to you, and you just dodged around with trivia. Either that, or he is a really good sketch artist, and made up all that complicated PIC stuff, and talked Springer-Verlag into actually publishing it.

Jim

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:41 am

David Talbott wrote:
Nereid wrote: In any case, once stars form they will quickly migrate to orbits determined by the total mass interior to those orbits (approximately), assuming that the only significant net force acting on them is gravitation ... and that brings us right back to the original need for dark matter (whether baryonic or not), i.e. the mass implied by their orbits is greater than the estimated total in gas/plasma, dust, and stars, and this 'mass gap' increases with distance from the galactic nucleus.
Well, this may be a minor matter, but I'm not understanding the implication of this statement. In a gravity only system, why would a star's orbit be affected only by the total interior mass of stars?
It's the total mass that is closer to the centre of mass of the system than the object (not the total mass inside any star), just to clarify a possible mis-interpretation.
Do masses and velocities of stars outside a particular star's orbit have no affect?
Yes, such stars do affect the orbits of 'interior' stars.

However, in the approximation under discussion here, they don't.

Perhaps the best example is what it's like inside a hollow sphere (of uniform thickness and density) - in Newtonian gravity, the gravitational force on a test particle inside such a sphere is zero; more precisely, the net force is zero.

In a 2D example - a ring of uniform thickness and density - test particles moving on the plane of the ring, inside it, experience a net zero gravitational force (again, under Newtonian gravity).

What's quite remarkable about the estimated velocities of stars in spiral galaxies - further out than the region 1) Peratt mentions - is how close they are to those expected of objects in Keplerian orbits; specifically, their orbits have only small eccentricities, they are confined to a narrow range of 'vertical' distances from the disk plane, etc. The 'velocity curve' in Region 2) (per Peratt) is not really 'flat'; rather it can be characterised as flat to a first approximation ... there are bumps and wiggles, there's generally some slowly varying non-zero slope, it's not perfectly symmetric, stars/gas/dust/plasma at a given radial distance has a range of 'velocities', etc.

Probably THE classic paper on the standard model of (spiral) galaxies is Bahcall and Soneira (1980) (link is to a PDF of that paper); the part directly relevant here is Section V ("Some Characteristics of the Standard Galaxy Model") subsection c ("The Rotation Curve"), and Section VI ("The Halo"). Although subsequent astronomical observations have led to somewhat different values for various parameters (and have added a 'thick disk', plus a few other tweaks), the basics have stood the test of time remarkably well.
This is not something I've ever thought about before, but it seems counter-intuitive. Does the underlying equilibrium of an interior star remain undisturbed if you add to exterior mass? Maybe so, or something to ponder. :?
Yes, it does (in Newtonian gravity), provided there is the right symmetry in the distribution of that exterior mass (essentially just spherical symmetry).

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by David Talbott » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:12 pm

Nereid wrote:
David Talbott wrote:Do masses and velocities of stars outside a particular star's orbit have no affect?
Yes, such stars do affect the orbits of 'interior' stars.

However, in the approximation under discussion here, they don't.

Perhaps the best example is what it's like inside a hollow sphere (of uniform thickness and density) - in Newtonian gravity, the gravitational force on a test particle inside such a sphere is zero; more precisely, the net force is zero.
Okay, I'll take that as the answer I was looking for. Thanks.

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:06 pm

I'm way behind in this thread, and, again, have time for only one quick comment (sorry everyone)
jjohnson wrote: 3. It's not relevant. I think what he is saying is that the galactic rotation rate in close is steadily rising, in that same paragraph 3.11.4, where your quote left out,
These data show (1) a nearly linear solid-body rotation for the galaxy center (the first few arc minutes from center, 2) a nearly radially independent velocity profile in the spiral arms, and 3) distinct structure in the spiral arms that appears on the so-called flat portion of the velocity curve (beyond the first few arc minutes or, equivalently, the first few kiloparsecs).
Nowhere does Peratt mention the word Arp or redshift in conjunction with his galactic angular or distance measurements. You might be inferring it because he discussed an angular measurement and a distance in the same breath, but if all he is doing is scaling from a simulation, a redshift need not be brought into it. He is just illustrating that his simulated galaxy exhibits structures and rotation characteristics similar to those of some observed spiral galaxies, plus it had the (to me) added bonus of developing and displaying a type of plasma instability that had been observed with some galaxies and other high energy astronomical phenomena as well. He discusses the diocotron instability in the first chapter.

I frankly have no idea of Peratt's take on Arp's work on redshift and peculiar galaxies; he has not talked with me about that. Talbott's letter might answer that, but in this context it is hardly relevant.
The relevance is several-fold; just a few aspects are:

* Peratt's simulation incorporates several 'scaling laws' (it's pretty powerful, and clever stuff, hence my use of quote marks) in the simulation, and he has not much room to vary the radial distance at which region 2 is to be found

* converting arcminutes - what one observes - to kpc - what is used in the simulation - requires plugging in a distance (and also a geometry, e.g. flat Euclidean, but that is pretty irrelevant for now); that conversion is done via the Hubble redshift-distance relationship (less so today, but almost always back in the early 1980s)

* if the distances to the galaxies whose rotation curves are presented, both in the book and the two papers, are unknown (as they would be, pretty much, per Arp), then there is (or rather was) no way (as far as I know) to determine how well the simulation matches the observations

* the simulation, per the first of the 1986 papers, is based on values of quite a few parameters, e.g. galactic magnetic field, thermal plasma temperature, plasma density, total source energy. Several of these can be estimated, from observing galaxies (and quasars) independently of the distance to such galaxies; however, several others cannot (e.g. Psyn). Peratt used estimates found in the literature, all of which (as far as I know) were made using the Hubble redshift-distance relationship

* e.g. Sturrock and Barnes (1972) - link is to a scanned PDF of the ApJ paper - which Peratt cites as (one) source of values for two key input parameters ... not only is this paper a good example of the application of plasma physics to (mainstream) astrophysics nearly three decades ago, but observations of the quasar 3C273 provide inputs to Sturrock and Barnes' estimates (they even write "assuming that the distance can be inferred from the redshift by the Hubble relation"!).

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:53 pm

Returning to this thread, and trying to catch up ...
seb wrote:as the currents move, so too do the stars along their lengths
if the moving electric current drags the ionised part of the Sun along with it at the observed galactic rotation rates
What (force?) is acting on the stars - the ionised parts of them - to make them move like this?
(While the calculation assumed 100% ionisation, the margin is so high here that we should be able to have very little ionisation to ensure an electromagnetically dominated rotation around the galaxy.)
Can you say a bit more about this please? I'm afraid I don't follow it at all.
If there are any mistakes in the maths or reasoning, feel free to point them out.
There are parts which I didn't follow (I asked about one such part, above), and the approach you took seems a little unusual, but - those caveats aside - I can't see any that would invalidate what seems to be your main conclusion ("What do these need to be to exert a 3.2e20 N force on the Sun?").

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:54 pm

jjohnson wrote:generates diocotron instabilities in the arms, [...] which does show up in photographs in some types of spiral galaxies
I do not know of any such photographs; can you point me to some please?

Also, how did you - or any author stating that such photographs show diocotron instabilities in the arms - conclude that it's diocotron instabilities?

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:55 pm

David Talbott wrote:In my own discussions with Peratt, he's expressed support for Arp's interpretation of quasars and explicitly stated that the standard redshift-distance correlation is not correct. He would factor in a frequency shift from the Wolf effect, named after Emil Wolf.
As far as I know, Peratt has not published anything on galaxy formation and evolution, nor on spiral galaxy rotation curves, incorporating "a frequency shift from the Wolf effect". If you know of any such material, would you cite it please?

In any case, as I noted in an earlier post in this thread, if redshifts are not used to estimate distances (to galaxies), then how are distances estimated? As I understand Peratt's two 1986 papers, and his book, his model depends, critically, on such distance estimates.

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Goldminer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:58 pm

Nereid wrote:In any case, as I noted in an earlier post in this thread, if redshifts are not used to estimate distances (to galaxies), then how are distances estimated?
Goldminer replies: Well, in the case of a QUASAR located in front of a lower shifted opaque conventional galaxy, or in the case of a QUASAR obviously connected to a conventional low shift galaxy, I would place the QUASAR somewhere within the vicinity of said galaxies, and nowhere near the most distant objects in the entire Universe. Does that help you, Nereid?
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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by jjohnson » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:56 pm

NGC 3646 in Leo, a large peculiar galaxy which has been reproduced in at least 2 different orientations, as if it had been "flipped" or rotated or something in its processing, is shown in Peratt's textbook in Figure 3.29, captioned "Optical photograph of NGC 3646. Note the well-defined diocotron instability in the spiral's arm." The Burbidges didn't seem to be sure if the wavy, kinked area was a part of an arm or a complete elliptical form not necessarily co-centered with the classic spiral centered portion of the galaxy, in a paper 3 decades earlier earlier, at [url]http:www.adsabs.edu/full/1961Apj...134...237B[/url]. Without going through the Hubble images and those of other agencies at other wavelengths, I can't honestly say I have observed anything that looks like diocotron instabilities in other galaxies than NGC 3646. I'll keep an eye out, and maybe browse around a bit.

Here is a later reference to this odd galaxy, [url]http:www.adsabs.edu/full/1996Apj...469...299G[/url], titled "Stability of Stellar Disks of Flat Galaxies II",by Griv and Peter, a better referenced and mathematically described Jeans instability criterion.

I have not drawn conclusions as to whether or not a certain vortex-like morphology represents a diocotron stability or not, and leave that up to those who know more about them than do I. Peratt describes the Diocotron Instability in 1.7.3, noting that the phenomenon "observed closely resembles that associated with the Kelvin-Helmholtz fluid dynamical shear instability, in which vortices develop in a fluid when a critical velocity of the flow is exceeded, with a large increase in the resistance to flow [Chandrasekhar 1961]." This is also similar to Von Karmen vortices, but, being in plasma, the threshold trigger is determined by the beam current or distance of propagation. As a guess, only, on my part, galactic jets imaged in radio frequencies are often able to travel significant distances as a highly collimated electron beam, and often tend, at distance, to become uncollimated and unstable and distort into feathery asymmetric plumes.

To the degree that large scale knots and kinks (in galaxies, nebulae, nova remnants and the like) reflect the lab scale electron beam patterns etched onto carbon witness plates or exciting a fluorescent screen(Peratt's figure 1.20), it may not be completely erroneous to posit that those instabilities seen in telescopes do seem to imitate the much scaled down plasma beams in the lab.

Peratt states, in the same section, that "the instability leading to the filamentation of the beam is known as the "slipping steam" [sic] or "diocotron" and occurs when charge neutrality is not locally maintained, for example, when electrons and ions separate." Peratt's typo should have read "slipping stream", the translation of the Greek "diocotron", meaning as when two different current sheets or filaments slip closely past each other with different velocities, creating a shear gradient between them.

One wonders if a plasma sheath or double layer becomes set up by this slippage, leading to charge separation across the shear boundary and possible acceleration by the ensuing electric fields of charged particles to relativistic velocities observed as, among other things, synchrotron radiation. This seems common enough on the Sun, where similar accelerations can occur in plasma filaments arcades and lead to high energy particle emission.

In his Fundamentals of Plasma Physics, 2006,Paul Bellan at CalTech covers "streaming instabilities" and the related "Landau problem" in great depth with more math than I could learn in another lifetime, but he never once mentions "diocotron" in connection with this form of instability, nor does he indicate that it takes certain shapes which have cognates in fluid dynamics, and that there are cosmic phenomena in which plasma instabilities, which have been fairly well researched and described on Earth at lab scales, appear to exist at various cosmic scales, too.

To his credit, at the beginning of his excellent book, Bellan writes, "Plasma physics is usually not a precise science. It is rather a web of overlapping points of view, each modeling a limited range of behavior. Understanding of plasmas is developed by studying these various points of view, all the while keeping in mind the linkages between [sic; among] these points of view." and "Plasma dynamics is determined by the self-consistent interaction between electromagnetic fields and statistically large numbers of charged particles..."

While many modern plasma physics textbooks allow that "space plasmas" exist, they, most definitely unlike Peratt, do not make much effort to relate their lessons and endless mathematics (which is good math as far as it goes, but generally ignores important discrete behaviors at the particle scale, operating as electric currents). How they plan to discover a way to get electricity out of their tokamaks without utilizing the electric current details of plasma physics is beyond me.

Jim

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:36 am

Goldminer wrote:
Nereid wrote:In any case, as I noted in an earlier post in this thread, if redshifts are not used to estimate distances (to galaxies), then how are distances estimated?
Goldminer replies: Well, in the case of a QUASAR located in front of a lower shifted opaque conventional galaxy, or in the case of a QUASAR obviously connected to a conventional low shift galaxy, I would place the QUASAR somewhere within the vicinity of said galaxies, and nowhere near the most distant objects in the entire Universe. Does that help you, Nereid?
It's not a question of helping me, Goldminer; rather it's about describing - in sufficient detail - how, in general, distances to these objects can be estimated ... then doing the work to produce estimates, and then re-doing all Peratt's calculations (followed by, I guess, publication).

The method you briefly outlined is not general, nor can it (as far as I can see) produce distance estimates sufficiently precise to be of use in Peratt's model.

Or did I miss something?

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Goldminer » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:22 am

Nereid wrote:Or did I miss something?
What you "missed" is that red shift is not an indicator of distance for QUASARs!

Maybe this would help: red shift is not an indicator of distance for QUASARs!
I sense a disturbance in the farce.

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Re: JREF forum bashing of Anthony Peratt's work...

Post by Nereid » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:56 am

Thanks Goldminer.

If, indeed, "red shift is not an indicator of distance for QUASARs" (whether in bold large type or not), then do we need to throw Peratt's two 1986 papers (and all the later ones he published, based on these two), plus much of his lengthy book, into the round file?

If not, why not?

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