Quasars...

[Nereid]

I thought I should post these as evidence that quasars are found near galaxies [because they are ejected from galaxies and eventually become galaxies themselves.]

Are there two Lloyds?

May I ask where your sense of absolute certainty comes from, Lloyd ("because they are ejected from galaxies and eventually become galaxies themselves"), given that this is a scientific part of this forum, (isn't it)? Oh, and may I introduce you to Goldminer ("Dave Smith, for example in the TPODS, is quite careful to use ""thought" or "maybe" instead of "known" or "for sure,"")?

- Dissecting a Merger between a Quasar and a ‘Green Valley’ Galaxy [z=0.37]
http://astrobites.com/2011/04/05/dissec ... ley-galaxy

These two are the OOTD (Object of the Day) in this Galaxy Zoo forum post; interesting reading.

- Surprising Hubble Images Challenge Quasar Theory
This Hubble picture provides evidence for a merger between a quasar and a companion galaxy.
http://www.nasaimages.org/luna/servlet/ ... Challenge-
http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archiv ... 4/image/a/
- Hubble Captures Merger Between Quasar and Galaxy
http://www.utahskies.org/HST/Archives/misc.html

The paper the reports these observations is, as far as I can tell, Bahcall et al. (1995): "HST Images of Nearby Luminous Quasars II: Results for Eight Quasars and Tests of the Detection Sensitivity". There are quite a few papers - by these authors and others - in the latter half of the 1990s on HST images of low redshift quasars. A representative one, which also addresses some of the questions phrased so breathlessly in the PR, is Bahcall et al. (1997); here's the abstract:

Hubble Space Telescope Images of a Sample of Twenty Nearby Luminous Quasars

Observations with the Wide-Field Camera of the Hubble Space Telescope are presented for a representative sample of 20 intrinsically luminous quasars with redshifts smaller than 0.30. These observations show that luminous quasars occur in diverse environments that include ellipticals as bright as the brightest cluster galaxies (2), apparently normal ellipticals (10), apparently normal spirals with H II regions (3), complex systems of gravitationally interacting components (3), and faint surrounding nebulosity (2). The quasar host galaxies are centered on the quasar to the accuracy of our measurements, 0.4 kpc. There are more radio quiet quasars in galaxies that appear to be ellipticals (7) than in spiral hosts (3), contrary to expectations. The average luminosity of the hosts is 2.2 magnitudes brighter than expected for a field galaxy luminosity function. We detect eight companion galaxies within projected distances of 10 kpc from quasar nuclei.

Also, how do they justify that last little bit of word-play at the end? "No current models"?? That's rather disingenious, if you ask me, and a slight against Dr. Halton Arp for certain.

Not in the slightest, Mike.

You see, Arp's model does not account for these observations at all! According to Arp, quasars have intrinsic redshifts, relative to the parent galaxy which expelled them, that are quantised and described by the Karlsson formula. As they age, quasars become more luminous, develop into galaxies, and their redshifts jump down. Etc.

If you think that the reported observations are consistent with Arp's model, why not do your own analysis and write it up? FWIW, as far as I know, Arp did not write any papers based on these observations.

[Goldminer]

You see, Arp's model does not account for these observations at all! According to Arp, quasars have intrinsic redshifts, relative to the parent galaxy which expelled them, that are quantised and described by the Karlsson formula. As they age, quasars become more luminous, develop into galaxies, and their redshifts jump down. Etc.

If you think that the reported observations are consistent with Arp's model, why not do your own analysis and write it up? FWIW, as far as I know, Arp did not write any papers based on these observations.

Actually, Nereid, the article did not get into red shifts at all. They investigated luminosities, proximities, and galactic shapes in relation to QUASARs, but did not even mention red shifts, let alone discuss them.

Your exclamation: "You see, Arp's model does not account for these observations at all!" is unwarranted!

You get me the red shifts of all these objects and I'll see how they line up with Arp's theory. As far as I know, Arp hasn't written papers on the entire universe yet!

.

[David Russell23]

Nereid wrote: You see, Arp's model does not account for these observations at all! According to Arp, quasars have intrinsic redshifts, relative to the parent galaxy which expelled them, that are quantised and described by the Karlsson formula. As they age, quasars become more luminous, develop into galaxies, and their redshifts jump down. Etc.

Hi Nereid,

I've had a chance to read over most of the Bahcall et al paper. It has been a while since I read that one so it was a nice refresher. Regarding the images in the paper - qualitatively these observations are what is expected in Arp's model. Quasars evolve into galaxies so host galaxies are expected at some point in the quasar evolution - and that is what is seen in the images.

Regarding the companions around these quasars - they would not be the parent galaxies of these quasars in Arp's model. Instead they would be companions to the quasars. In fact, Arp has proposed in some of his papers that quasars can themselves have ejections that form companions to the quasars - essentially small galaxy clusters that are interpreted as large clusters when the normal Hubble relation is applied to the observed redshifts.

Given that these companions are typically smaller and less luminous than the quasars they are associated with, Arp would predict that they would either have redshifts very close to the quasars or higher than the quasars. The actual parent galaxy would have the lower redshift -- but the parent is not going to be in the same field as the quasar in these HST images. It is going to be a larger, lower redshift AGN.

Note in section 7 of the Bahcall paper that the authors state: "This table gives for each quasar the number of companion galaxies that are at least as bright as Mv = -16.5 (if they have the same redshift as the quasar) ..."

And there is a problem for drawing any conclusions about these results as they relate to Arp's hypothesis. Without redshifts for those companions we just don't know.

Now in section 9 of the paper Bahcall et al discuss each example and in some cases they refer to previous studies that did measure the redshift of galaxies near the quasar. For example PKS 1004+30 has two galaxies near the quasar with similar redshift. That is consistent with Arp's model. It is not true that Arp's model cannot account for the observations in the Bahcall et al paper.

[David Talbott]

What a pleasure—and an honor—to see David Russell's presence here. Forum members will be glad to know that Halton Arp will be receiving the NPA's annual Sagnac Award (for outstanding contribution to astronomy and cosmology) at the upcoming conference this summer, July 6-9. Also, David will be presenting a paper on "Evidence for Large Deviations from Hubble's Law in Normal Spiral Galaxies."

Dear readers: if there is any way for you to attend this event, please take a look at the list of attendees, (including a dozen EU proponents as speakers). It is a rare opportunity indeed to rub shoulders with scientists and interdisciplinary researchers destined to affect so many different fields.
http://conf18.worldnpa.org/index.php?mo ... sition=6:6

David Talbott

[mharratsc]

TY to Mr. Russell for that clarification.

So my statement stands- Mr. Arp has a model that has 'been there, done that.' He deserves credit where credit is due.