Black Hole Caught Zapping Galaxy Into Existence?

[flyingcloud]

I'm not sure where'd you'd like me to stick this one

I am especially fond of the caveat "notes" portion of the article.

available for translation from the "mainstream":
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112413.htm
Black Hole Caught Zapping Galaxy Into Existence?

ScienceDaily (Nov. 30, 2009) — Which come first, the supermassive black holes that frantically devour matter or the enormous galaxies where they reside? A brand new scenario has emerged from a recent set of outstanding observations of a black hole without a home: black holes may be "building" their own host galaxy. This could be the long-sought missing link to understanding why the masses of black holes are larger in galaxies that contain more stars

"The 'chicken and egg' question of whether a galaxy or its black hole comes first is one of the most debated subjects in astrophysics today," says lead author David Elbaz. "Our study suggests that supermassive black holes can trigger the formation of stars, thus 'building' their own host galaxies. This link could also explain why galaxies hosting larger black holes have more stars."

To reach such an extraordinary conclusion, the team of astronomers conducted extensive observations of a peculiar object, the nearby quasar HE0450-2958 (see ESO PR 23/05 for a previous study of this object), which is the only one for which a host galaxy has not yet been detected [1]. HE0450-2958 is located some 5 billion light-years away.

Until now, it was speculated that the quasar's host galaxy was hidden behind large amounts of dust, and so the astronomers used a mid-infrared instrument on ESO's Very Large Telescope for the observations [2]. At such wavelengths, dust clouds shine very brightly, and are readily detected. "Observing at these wavelengths would allow us to trace dust that might hide the host galaxy," says Knud Jahnke, who led the observations performed at the VLT. "However, we did not find any. Instead we discovered that an apparently unrelated galaxy in the quasar's immediate neighbourhood is producing stars at a frantic rate."

These observations have provided a surprising new take on the system. While no trace of stars is revealed around the black hole, its companion galaxy is extremely rich in bright and very young stars. It is forming stars at a rate equivalent to about 350 Suns per year, one hundred times more than rates for typical galaxies in the local Universe.

Earlier observations had shown that the companion galaxy is, in fact, under fire: the quasar is spewing a jet of highly energetic particles towards its companion, accompanied by a stream of fast-moving gas. The injection of matter and energy into the galaxy indicates that the quasar itself might be inducing the formation of stars and thereby creating its own host galaxy; in such a scenario, galaxies would have evolved from clouds of gas hit by the energetic jets emerging from quasars.

"The two objects are bound to merge in the future: the quasar is moving at a speed of only a few tens of thousands of km/h with respect to the companion galaxy and their separation is only about 22 000 light-years," says Elbaz. "Although the quasar is still 'naked', it will eventually be 'dressed' when it merges with its star-rich companion. It will then finally reside inside a host galaxy like all other quasars."

Hence, the team have identified black hole jets as a possible driver of galaxy formation, which may also represent the long-sought missing link to understanding why the mass of black holes is larger in galaxies that contain more stars [3].

"A natural extension of our work is to search for similar objects in other systems," says Jahnke.

Future instruments, such as the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array, the European Extremely Large Telescope and the NASA/ESA/CSA James Webb Space Telescope will be able to search for such objects at even larger distances from us, probing the connection between black holes and the formation of galaxies in the more distant Universe.

Notes

[1] Supermassive black holes are found in the cores of most large galaxies; unlike the inactive and starving one sitting at the centre of the Milky Way, a fraction of them are said to be active, as they eat up enormous amounts of material. These frantic actions produce a copious release of energy across the whole electromagnetic spectrum; particularly spectacular is the case of quasars, where the active core is so overwhelmingly bright that it outshines the luminosity of the host galaxy.

[2] This part of the study is based on observations performed at mid-infrared wavelengths, with the powerful VLT spectrometer and imager for the mid-infrared (VISIR) instrument at the VLT, combined with additional data including: spectra acquired using VLT-FORS, optical and infrared images from the NASA/ESA Hubble Space Telescope, and radio observations from the Australia Telescope National Facility.

[3] Most galaxies in the local Universe contain a supermassive black hole with a mass about 1/700th the mass of the stellar bulge. The origin of this black hole mass versus stellar mass relation is one of the most debated subjects in modern astrophysics.

More Information

This research was presented in papers published in the journal Astronomy & Astrophysics and in the Astrophysical Journal.

The team is composed of David Elbaz (Service d'Astrophysique, CEA Saclay, France), Knud Jahnke (Max Planck Institute for Astronomy, Heidelberg, Germany), Eric Pantin (Service d'Astrophysique, CEA Saclay, France), Damien Le Borgne (Paris University 6 and CNRS, Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, France) and Géraldine Letawe (Institut d'Astrophysique et de Géophysique, Université de Liège, Belgium).

[StevenJay]

The team is composed of David Elbaz (Service d'Astrophysique, CEA Saclay, France), Knud Jahnke (Max Planck Institute for Astronomy, Heidelberg, Germany), Eric Pantin (Service d'Astrophysique, CEA Saclay, France), Damien Le Borgne (Paris University 6 and CNRS, Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, France) and Géraldine Letawe (Institut d'Astrophysique et de Géophysique, Université de Liège, Belgium).

[jjohnson]

@ FlyingCloud: If you need help, I will tell you where you can stick it. (No; not there.) As a humorous out-take in the back of Halton Arp's Seeing Red would do nicely.

@StevenJay: Is that left to right in the photo, or right to left? Gotta love it!

Given the article title's being in the interrogative sense, it would have been a lot shorter if the set of authors had simply written a single-word paragraph below it: "No." and signed it. -but there would go the next grant.

[Harry Costas]

G'day JJ

What do you mean by "NO"?

[jjohnson]

Hi, Harry,

By "No" I meant to imply that "no" is a more logical answer to the question in the title of the article than all their talk of a black hole being the source - i.e., No, they did not catch a black hole zapping (to use the article writer's scientific jargon) a galaxy into existence. The idea that quasars (active galaxies with jets and, often, lobes) may be precursors to galaxies is a good one, but not a new one, and tends to align with EU conjecture rather well. I wonder what causes a galaxy to be that active ,and think it must be extreme electrical stress, as in stellar scenarios at a smaller scale. I do NOT believe that there is a black hole sitting there emitting the jets; jets, to me, appear to be a plasma-electrodynamic phenomenon, not a mathematical construct of a singularity, doing the work.

The title of the article which engendered this news story is Quasar induced galaxy formation - a new paradigm? I was pleased to see that they are attributing galaxy formation to evidence produced by their observations of quasars, since by definition you can't observe a black hole. They note that this is the only quasar (HE0450-2958) found to not have an active galaxy at its center, a finding I can't explain. This may be the source of their conclusion that it is an invisible black hole, instead. I wish they had heeded and credited Alton Arp's prior writings instead of implying that this is a new paradigm, original with them. Is this a form of plagiarism or have they simply never been made aware of his writings in the field? They might also have undertaken an explanation of how their black hole might be the source of the high red shifts normally associated with the lobes of the jets, about which Arp and others have original and plausible ideas based on astronomical observations and associative isophotes and all.

That's all. Comments and argument welcome.

P.S. The paper is downloadable through the link at the bottom of the article linked in the first post, for those wanting to read it. It's not that bad, as such things go. I surely wouldn't demonize these guys, except for their neglect of Arp.

[Harry Costas]

G'day JJ

I agree with you.

Also you said:

I do NOT believe that there is a black hole sitting there emitting the jets; jets, to me, appear to be a plasma-electrodynamic phenomenon, not a mathematical construct of a singularity, doing the work.

You will find the answer by researching Instanton, Soliton, Axion and Supersymmetry on arXiv or NASA ADS. Bottom line is this, a jet is a jet regardless of its size its origin is basically the same, its form will change depending on the condensed matter. I 'd rather NOT think of black holes and singularities since they are very theoretical I'd rather look at the actual possible make up of the condensed matter and its properties to create a Instanton and a soliton and so on.

Although the condensed matter can take the form of Neutron Matter making the Sun compacted down to about 10 Km radius or was it Dia. Than you have the quark matter compaction down to the size of a 300 mm ball and than you have Neutrino matter compaction down to 10 mm ball. The size could imply properties of a black hole with trapping horizons.

[kc0itf]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 ... -rays.html

Is there anything they won't blame on black holes? Our current economic depression?

[Harry Costas]

G'day

Someone in this forum said that Black Holes are contextual.

So you can probably define your own hole.

[mharratsc]

Hopefully that quasar is moving quickly enough that they will be able to track it's motion relative to it's companion (parent) galaxy. Once they see that the quasar is moving away from the galaxy AND slowing down, it will be a physical proof for Arp's ejection theory, and also do a lot to boost EU credibility in the mainstream...

... that is- as long as someone can read the article and comment on it's validation of Arp's Ejection Theory *before* someone comes along and proposes a dark matter/energy/flow/hallucination-based "explanation" for the complete reverse of what their Black Hole theory calls for.

As for 'condensed states of matter'... I don't really buy into these things that supposedly exist in deep space, but aren't replicable here on Earth... especially in the face of existing physics that can explain the events in question.


Mike H.

[Harry Costas]

G'day

Theoretical Black Hole with an event Horizon and a singularity does not exist.

The term Black Hole is contexual it mainly refers to a ultra compact matter with density far greater than the centre of an atom and because of this has vector forces preventing the escape of EMR. The properties of compact matter allow for an AXION to form, forming a EM vortex at the speed of light which is able to transport subatomic particles at close to the speed of light as we can observe in Jet streams.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2002/1127/

The X-ray image of the quasar PKS 1127-145, a highly luminous source of X-rays and visible light about 10 billion

light years from Earth, shows an enormous X-ray jet that extends at least a million light years from the quasar. The jet is likely due to the collision of a beam of high-energy electrons with microwave photons

.

The explantion of the formation of the jet by Chandra falls short. I think they need to update their science.

[nick c]

hi Harry Costas,

Theoretical Black Hole with an event Horizon and a singularity does not exist.

Agreed

The term Black Hole is contexual it mainly refers to a ultra compact matter with density far greater than the centre of an atom and because of this has vector forces preventing the escape of EMR.

For general reference purposes, according to the Electric Universe theory there can be no ultra compact matter, whether that be a black hole, neutron star, super dense white dwarf, and there is no compressing of matter resulting in fusion at the core of a typical star such as the Sun. All of these hypothetical constructs are differing degrees of the same theoretical framework. That theory originates from the combination of the gravity only paradigm and an assumption that the matter composing the stars and molecular gas clouds behaves according to ideal gas laws.
Despite any elegant mathematical modeling, plasmas just don't seem to care much for these rules. Plasmas are electrical by nature, and when you start compressing matter you will reach a point where ions will start to repel each other preventing further collapse, the electric force being many orders of magnitude more powerful than gravity.
Or as Wal Thornhill stated in reference to the Sun's interior (the same logic applies to all of the theoretical ultra compact objects):

The nucleus of each atom, which is thousands of times heavier than the electrons, will be gravitationally offset from the center of the atom. The result is that each atom becomes a small electric dipole. It is significant that if you want to discover the physics of atomic and molecular dipole forces you need to turn to chemistry texts. Such is the problem with specialization. The atomic and molecular dipoles align to form a radial electric field that causes electrons to diffuse outwards in enormously greater numbers than Eddington's simple gravitational sorting allows. It leaves positively charged ions behind which repel one another. That electrical repulsion balances the compressive force of gravity without the need for a central heat source in the star.

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=by2r22xg

Nick

[mharratsc]

G'day

Theoretical Black Hole with an event Horizon and a singularity does not exist.

The term Black Hole is contexual it mainly refers to a ultra compact matter with density far greater than the centre of an atom and because of this has vector forces preventing the escape of EMR. The properties of compact matter allow for an AXION to form, forming a EM vortex at the speed of light which is able to transport subatomic particles at close to the speed of light as we can observe in Jet streams.

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2002/1127/

The X-ray image of the quasar PKS 1127-145, a highly luminous source of X-rays and visible light about 10 billion

light years from Earth, shows an enormous X-ray jet that extends at least a million light years from the quasar. The jet is likely due to the collision of a beam of high-energy electrons with microwave photons

.

The explantion of the formation of the jet by Chandra falls short. I think they need to update their science.

Nothing more than a [url2=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dense_plasma_focus]dense plasma focus[/url2].

Here's a good [url2=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ9bXbnLI6U&NR=1]simulation[/url2], that works for all scales of the event, from micro to macro.

That's my take on it, anyway.


Mike H.

[jjohnson]

Thanks for that nice simulation, originally from Eric Lerner's Focus Fusion site, Mike. This is much more likely the generator, at cosmic scales, of the mysterious jets and counter jets out of active galaxies and planetary nebula. They are making slow but steady progress, having achieved a pinch in the electromagnetic when they "fire" or energize the electrode array with a bank of capacitors. If practical fusion energy were a horse race, I'd be at the window betting on Lerner in the green and rose silks. And the Tokomaks and cold fusion ponies have both stumbled badly at the gate...