Disparaging Lemaitre

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Siggy_G
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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Siggy_G » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:50 am

From the earlier post in this (long) thread:
Total Science: Iron floating on water defies universal gravitation.
Joe: No, it does not defy gravity. The iron still interacts with gravity, but the hydrodynamic shape of the iron countervails the force of gravity beneath it.
Total Science: So shape causes antigravity?
Read up on Archimedes' principle / Buoyancy, which is a fairly elementary concept. Unless you are referring to something very strange here, that is... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy)

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:02 am

Hi, Grey Cloud.

Thanks for the expanded quote.

Lucretius was most definitely an Atomist. And, in the fragment of poem that you've provided us, he clearly attributes many sensual properties to the work of very small corpuscles. He obviously is not describing vulcanic activity, so I was wrong about this. But, he most definitely is not reporting on nuclear conflagration, either, so I was right about this, though. (No big surprise. :)) The problem with Lucretius is that, because he was a philosopher, he never took the next step to physically investigating natural phenomena. Ideas are fine, but they're also a dime-a-dozen. Eventually, a few do stick to show their worth, but this is only to be expected, for reason of statistics. And, Atomism has obviously resurged in modern times, but Quantum theory redirects it into something that the ancients did not envisage: Probabilism - a quasi-magical paradigm.


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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:49 am

Hi, Siggy_G.

Thanks for the advice.

Buoyancy is essentially a matter of density. I understood this when I responded to Total Science. But, since density is the amount of mass per unit-volume, density can be decreased by increasing the volume of said mass, without altering its amount. This is achieved by shaping the bulk of the mass into a bowl-like structure. When the right volume is reached, the weight of the bulk (iron, in our case) equals the weight of the displaced water, and buoyancy is the outcome. This is what I meant by "hydrodynamic shape." Of course, other factors such as the angularity of the interface between the 2 substances, and the internal, mechanical properties of the 2 substances, do come into play.


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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:17 pm

The Greeks never developed a Heliocentric model despite having all the info needed to. Koestler, in, The Sleepwalkers, blames their devotion to Aristotle for this failure. Blind adherence to dogma blinded the Greeks, just as it does modern scientists.

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:52 am

Hi, Joe Keenan. (Excellent name, BTW. ;) )

Thanks for the info. Very interesting.

I have a question, though:
Did any of the ancients have a Heliocentric model that was developed to a respectable degree?
(Total Science has been insistent that the ancients had it all figured out.)

Also, adherence to familiar ways is part of the human condition; it's comfortable. But, we should always promote the use of logic, nevertheless. (Frankly, what other choice have we got? Promote magic?!)


-Joe

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:51 am

Thanks, I like it! :D

Aristarchus developed a helio centric model but it was never adopted, he had no disciples and no followers, the original work is lost we know about it mainly through Archimedes and Plutarch. There's a great quote in Sleepwalkers that seems very germane to the EU, "The purpose of the digression of this chapter......is to show that the cosmology of any given age is not the result of a unilinear, 'scientifc' development, but rather the most striking, imaginative symbol of it's mentality - the projection of it's conflict, prejudices and specific ways of double think on a graceful sky.

Great book and I think it would be of great interest to many here. While some of the history is dated, the Dark Ages myth predominates, the authors wide use of original sources in other instances is first rate

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by nick c » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:02 am

hi Joe,
Did any of the ancients have a Heliocentric model that was developed to a respectable degree?
Depends on what you consider to be a "respectable degree." [url2=http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Bios/Aris ... Samos.html]Aristarchus of Samos[/url2], 3rd C BCE, is credited with having proposed the first heliocentric model. Aristarchus and his ideas were not accepted, most of the intelligentsia opted for the geocentric model. For this reason it is incorrect to say that the ancients knew the Earth revolved around the Sun. In fact the only extant writing by Aristarchus seems to describe a geocentric view, however, we have many ancient references to him and his heliocentric model. So, the testimony is 2nd hand, although most probably reliable. [Imhop, it must be realized that the Greek Philosophers entertained a variety of, many mutually exclusive, ideas, speculations, and theories. Their world being marked by an intellectual atmosphere which tolerated a great degree of free thought. Nevertheless, one could still be punished, in jail, or worse, for teaching certain things. A practice which has not been eliminated from our modern world.]

However, it must be kept in mind that Aristarchus may have gotten his ideas or built upon ideas from older sources. But, there is no clear cut reference to a heliocentric system previous to Aristarchus, and there is no model for a heliocentric system that could rival the geocentric model of Aristotle and Ptolemy, until Copernicus. If anyone has, an ancient reference to a heliocentric model previous to Aristarchus, I would be interested in seeing it.

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:01 pm

Joe Keenan,

Thanks for more info.
Joe Keenan wrote:the projection of it's conflict, prejudices and specific ways of double think on a graceful sky
Sadly, this is the lot of humanity: to tramp in a fog. Still, we must struggle onward in magnanimity and rational thinking.
Joe Keenan wrote:the Dark Ages myth predominates
Which would this be? Flat-Earth?


-Joe

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:53 pm

Hi, again, Nick.
nick c wrote: But, there is no clear cut reference to a heliocentric system previous to Aristarchus, and there is no model for a heliocentric system that could rival the geocentric model of Aristotle and Ptolemy, until Copernicus.
Well, then, I guess I took the correct stance against the belief of Total Science that Heliocentrism was very ancient, well-known, well-respected, and time-tested. It turns out that it was just a curious, inconsequential blip in the history of Humanity before Copernicus.
nick c wrote:the only extant writing by Aristarchus seems to describe a geocentric view
Odd. This cements further the fact that Heliocentrism was very marginal in the pre-Copernican days, even if second-hand sources correctly attribute this world-view to Aristarchus.

Thanks for the great input. It really puts things in perspective.


-Joe

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:10 pm

Joe wrote:Joe Keenan,

Thanks for more info.
Joe Keenan wrote:the projection of it's conflict, prejudices and specific ways of double think on a graceful sky
Sadly, this is the lot of humanity: to tramp in a fog. Still, we must struggle onward in magnanimity and rational thinking.
Joe Keenan wrote:the Dark Ages myth predominates
Which would this be? Flat-Earth?


-Joe
After the fall of Rome a "Dark Age" was supposed to have fallen upon Europe, in reality, a city and rich land owners fell, the provinces, freed of Roman domination, exploded in innovation. It took 19th century Englishmen to give us a flat earth theory!

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:17 pm

Joe wrote:Hi, again, Nick.
nick c wrote: But, there is no clear cut reference to a heliocentric system previous to Aristarchus, and there is no model for a heliocentric system that could rival the geocentric model of Aristotle and Ptolemy, until Copernicus.
Well, then, I guess I took the correct stance against the belief of Total Science that Heliocentrism was very ancient, well-known, well-respected, and time-tested. It turns out that it was just a curious, inconsequential blip in the history of Humanity before Copernicus.
nick c wrote:the only extant writing by Aristarchus seems to describe a geocentric view
Odd. This cements further the fact that Heliocentrism was very marginal in the pre-Copernican days, even if second-hand sources correctly attribute this world-view to Aristarchus.

Thanks for the great input. It really puts things in perspective.
Koestler argues the Ptolemaic system was good enough for what was needed, navigation was based on charts undergirded by the Ptolemaic system. When new charts were released based on Copernican assumptions they proved less reliable and were not used! Contrary to popular belief, Copernicus did not do away with or reduce epicycles, according to Koestlers reading he added eight, actually made the system more complicated!

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:24 pm

Birkeland said, "We now see how far into the realm of religion science is dragged by the catholic church and any other institution with vested interests in clinging to dogmatic beliefs of something else than reality."

The Catholic Church has always been a supporter of science, it has been argued by some, Stanley Jaki for example, that science itself is a creation of Christianity/the Church. There are 35 craters on the moon named after Jesuit astronomers, the founder of Paleontology was a Jesuit, seismology was so dominated Jesuits it was called "the Jesuit science."

Just sayin....

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:28 pm

The Origin of Science

How is it that science became a self-sustaining enterprise only in the Christian West?

...as Whitehead pointed out, it is no coincidence that science sprang, not from Ionian metaphysics, not from the Brahmin-Buddhist-Taoist East, not from the Egyptian-Mayan astrological South, but from the heart of the Christian West, that although Galileo fell out with the Church, he would hardly have taken so much trouble studying Jupiter and dropping objects from towers if the reality and value and order of things had not first been conferred by belief in the Incarnation. (Walker Percy, Lost in the Cosmos)

To the popular mind, science is completely inimical to religion: science embraces facts and evidence while religion professes blind faith. Like many simplistic popular notions, this view is mistaken. Modern science is not only compatible with Christianity, it in fact finds its origins in Christianity. This is not to say that the Bible is a science textbook that contains raw scientific truths, as some evangelical Christians would have us believe. The Christian faith contains deeper truths-- truths with philosophical consequences that make conceivable the mind's exploration of nature: man's place in God's creation, who God is and how he freely created a cosmos.

In large part, the modern mind thinks little of these notions in much the same way that the last thing on a fish's mind is the water it breathes. It is difficult for those raised in a scientific world to appreciate the plight of the ancient mind trapped within an eternal and arbitrary world. It is difficult for those raised in a post-Christian world to appreciate the radical novelty and liberation Christian ideas presented to the ancient mind.

The following selection summarizes the most notable work of Stanley Jaki, renowned historian of science and Templeton Prize laureate.
How did Christian belief provide a cultural matrix (womb) for the growth of science?

In Christ and Science (p. 23), Jaki gives four reasons for modern science's unique birth in Christian Western Europe:

1. "Once more the Christian belief in the Creator allowed a break-through in thinking about nature. Only a truly transcendental Creator could be thought of as being powerful enough to create a nature with autonomous laws without his power over nature being thereby diminished. Once the basic among those laws were formulated science could develop on its own terms."
2. "The Christian idea of creation made still another crucially important contribution to the future of science. It consisted in putting all material beings on the same level as being mere creatures. Unlike in the pagan Greek cosmos, there could be no divine bodies in the Christian cosmos. All bodies, heavenly and terrestrial, were now on the same footing, on the same level. this made it eventually possible to assume that the motion of the moon and the fall of a body on earth could be governed by the same law of gravitation. The assumption would have been a sacrilege in the eyes of anyone in the Greek pantheistic tradition, or in any similar tradition in any of the ancient cultures."
3. "Finally, man figured in the Christian dogma of creation as a being specially created in the image of God. This image consisted both in man's rationality as somehow sharing in God's own rationality and in man's condition as an ethical being with eternal responsibility for his actions. Man's reflection on his own rationality had therefore to give him confidence that his created mind could fathom the rationality of the created realm."
4. "At the same time, the very createdness could caution man to guard agains the ever-present temptation to dictate to nature what it ought to be. The eventual rise of the experimental method owes much to that Christian matrix."

But what about the other monotheistic religions?

Jaki notes that before Christ the Jews never formed a very large community (priv. comm.). In later times, the Jews lacked the Christian notion that Jesus was the monogenes or unigenitus, the only-begotten of God. Pantheists like the Greeks tended to identify the monogenes or unigenitus with the universe itself, or with the heavens. Jaki writes:

Herein lies the tremendous difference between Christian monotheism on the one hand and Jewish and Muslim monotheism on the other. This explains also the fact that it is almost natural for a Jewish or Muslim intellectual to become a patheist. About the former Spinoza and Einstein are well-known examples. As to the Muslims, it should be enough to think of the Averroists. With this in mind one can also hope to understand why the Muslims, who for five hundred years had studied Aristotle's works and produced many commentaries on them failed to make a breakthrough. The latter came in medieval Christian context and just about within a hundred years from the availability of Aristotle's works in Latin

As we will see below, the break-through that began science was a Christian commentary on Aristotle's De Caelo (On the Heavens).
So how did it all happen? Or fail to happen?

Fr. Paul Haffner writes:

Modern experimental science was rendered possible, Jaki has shown, as a result of the Christian philosophical atmosphere of the Middle Ages. Although a talent for science was certainly present in the ancient world (for example in the design and construction of the Egyptian pyramids), nevertheless the philosophical and psychological climate was hostile to a self-sustaining scientific process. Thus science suffered still-births in the cultures of ancient China, India, Egypt and Babylonia. It also failed to come to fruition among the Maya, Incas and Aztecs of the Americas. Even though ancient Greece came closer to achieving a continuous scientific enterprise than any other ancient culture, science was not born there either. Science did not come to birth among the medieval Muslim heirs to Aristotle.

....The psychological climate of such ancient cultures, with their belief that the universe was infinite and time an endless repetition of historical cycles, was often either hopelessness or complacency (hardly what is needed to spur and sustain scientific progress); and in either case there was a failure to arrive at a belief in the existence of God the Creator and of creation itself as therefore rational and intelligible. Thus their inability to produce a self-sustaining scientific enterprise.

If science suffered only stillbirths in ancient cultures, how did it come to its unique viable birth? The beginning of science as a fully fledged enterprise took place in relation to two important definitions of the Magisterium of the Church. The first was the definition at the Fourth Lateran Council in the year 1215, that the universe was created out of nothing at the beginning of time. The second magisterial statement was at the local level, enunciated by Bishop Stephen Tempier of Paris who, on March 7, 1277, condemned 219 Aristotelian propositions, so outlawing the deterministic and necessitarian views of creation.

These statements of the teaching authority of the Church expressed an atmosphere in which faith in God had penetrated the medieval culture and given rise to philosophical consequences. The cosmos was seen as contingent in its existence and thus dependent on a divine choice which called it into being; the universe is also contingent in its nature and so God was free to create this particular form of world among an infinity of other possibilities. Thus the cosmos cannot be a necessary form of existence; and so it has to be approached by a posteriori investigation. The universe is also rational and so a coherent discourse can be made about it. Indeed the contingency and rationality of the cosmos are like two pillars supporting the Christian vision of the cosmos.

The rise of science needed the broad and persistent sharing by the whole population, that is, the entire culture, of a very specific body of doctrines relating the universe to a universal and absolute intelligibility embodied in the tenet about a personal God, the Creator of all. Therefore it was not chance that the first physicist was John Buridan, professor at the Sorbonne around the year 1330, just after the time of the two above-mentioned statements of the Church's teaching office.

Buridan's vision of the universe was steeped in the Christian doctrine of the creation; in particular, he rejected the Aristotelian idea [in De Caelo] of a cosmos existing from all eternity. He developed the idea of impetus in which God was seen as responsible for the initial setting in motion of the heavenly bodies, which then remained in motion without the necessity of a direct action on the part of God. This was different from Aristotle's approach, in which the motion of heavenly bodies had no beginning and would also have no end. Buridan's work was continued by his disciple, Nicholas Oresme, around the year 1370; impetus theory anticipated Newton's first law of motion.

The doctrine that God created the universe out of nothing and that the universe had a beginning was later to be reiterated at the First Vatican Council, against the errors of materialism and pantheism which enjoyed a new vogue at that time. In addition, Vatican I stated the absolute freedom of God to create, and made clear (against fideism) the possibility of arriving at God's existence through a rational reflection upon creation. As Jaki states: ``The Council, in line with a tradition almost two millenia old, could but insist on the very foundation of that relation which is man's ability to see the reasonability of revelation, which in turn is inconceivable if man is not able to infer from the world surrounding him the existence of its Creator.

It is precisely the inability of many scientists to trace the grandeur of the Creator in His works that Jaki opposes with great skill. He challenges the atheistic positions of R. Dawkins in the biological sphere and of Stephen Hawking in physics. He shows that the best way to unmask the thought of non-believing scientists is to show how the basis for their reasoning cannot be proven scientifically. In an unjustified way they leave the realm of their own scientific disciplines and make a priori philosophical deductions against Christian belief. Again, one example of this is the pervasive ``chance'' or ``chaos'' ideology used to ``explain'' the coming into being of the material universe, of life and of the human person. Stanley Jaki has also refuted such approaches to the cosmos and creation in his masterly work, The Purpose of It All, published in 1990.

The originality of Jaki's thought also lies in the link which he describes between the dogmas of the Creation and the Incarnation. He shows how the development of the doctrine of creation out of nothing was ``connected with the conceptual refinements of the doctrine of the Incarnation around which raged the great inner debates of the early Church.'' Jaki then discusses how the Jewish position on creation underwent a change during the first few centuries of Christianity. Philo, a contemporary of Jesus, tried to interpret the first chapter of Genesis, but his view ``showed him closer to Greek eternalism than to Biblical creationism.'' The earliest midrashim ``showed that Jewish theologians were no longer willing to uphold the doctrine of the complete submission of matter to the Maker of all.'' In the Mutazalite tradition of Islam there was also a tendency to slide towards emanationism and pantheism, as a result of endorsing the pantheistic necessitarianism of Aristotle.

Jaki clearly affirms that in Christianity, a slide into pantheism was prevented because the doctrine of the creation was bolstered up by faith in the Incarnation. Pantheism is invariably present when the eternal and cyclic view of the cosmos prevails. The uniqueness of the Incarnation and Redemption dashed to pieces any possibility of the eternal and cyclic view; for if the world were cyclic, the once-and-for-all coming of Christ would be undermined. The uniqueness of Christ secures a linear view of history and makes Christianity more than just one among many historical factors influencing the world. The dogmas of the Creation and Incarnation mean ``an absolute and most revolutionary break with a past steeped in paganism,'' and the enunciation of these dogmas and their historical impact is ``an uphill fight never to be completed.''

...

But the cosmos and all the specific laws which govern it do not form a self-explanatory system; they point beyond science and call for a metaphysical foundation in the Christian doctrine of creation. It is precisely this Christian doctrine of creation which, according to Jaki, was the stimulus for the unique viable birth of science. The Christian doctrine of creation finds its expression within the Church.

References

Jaki, Stanley. Christ and Science. Royal Oak, Michigan: Real View Books, 2000.

Jaki, Stanley. God and the Cosmologists. Edinburgh: Scottish Academic Press, 1989.

Jaki, Stanley. The Savior of Science. Edinburgh: Scottish Academic Press, 1990.

Jaki, Stanley. Science and Creation. Edinburgh: Scottish Academic Press, 1974.
Pertinent References and Links

Science: From the Womb of Religion by Stanley L. Jaki

The Absolute Beneath the Relative by Stanley L. Jaki

Stanley L. Jaki homepage

Why Catholics like Einstein by Sim Johnston

The Galileo Affair by Sim Johnston
The truth about Galileo's treatment by the Church

`Letter to My Children' by Whittaker Chambers
Science, materialism, Communism, and faith
How are we all victims of science's blindness?

Does God Really Exist? by Fr. Robert A. Connor
The self, atheism, rationalism, empiricism, and God

Pope John Paul II's Statement on Evolution

`Death of Darwinism'
the Catholic Church's position on evolution

If you have trouble finding books by Jaki, try contacting the author:

Rev. Stanley L. Jaki,
P.O. Box 167,
Princeton, NJ 08542-0167

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe Keenan » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:31 pm

Links at the bottom of the above post are not active, go here:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/ ... rigin.html

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Re: Disparaging Lemaitre

Post by Joe » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:06 am

Joe Keenan wrote:After the fall of Rome a "Dark Age" was supposed to have fallen upon Europe, in reality, a city and rich land owners fell, the provinces, freed of Roman domination, exploded in innovation.
You're right.
The sociologist of religion, Rodney Stark, covers the same ground, and reaches the same conclusion.
Joe Keenan wrote:It took 19th century Englishmen to give us a flat earth theory!
Copernicus, also, had the same misperception of the ancients.
The only notable ancient who was a Flat-Earther is the early Christian writer Lactantius.


-Joe

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